 Changes to Magic |
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 Jul 7 2005, 12:43 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280  |
I've never found that Shadowrun was about Magic Versus Machine, which makes them sound like they're in direct conflict in all things.
I think Shadowrun is more about the nature of technology and the nature of magic and how the two relate to each other. I think that, in the SR3 rules at least, Shadowrun reflects the idea that "Any suitably advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic." I believe that SR3 does this very well, and I suspect that SR4 has made it part of the design philosophy. |
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Jul 7 2005, 03:17 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Pre-SR4 Shadowrun had a significant magic vs. machine component. The inherent tension between the two is why, for example, cyberware costs essence and essence loss reduces magical ability and high-tech objects are harder to affect with magic.
It's not yet clear to me what will be left of this in SR4. |
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Jul 7 2005, 03:27 AM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I think Essence loss was to reduce the twink factor. Otherwise, we'd be surrounded by cybermage-monsters.
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Jul 7 2005, 03:37 AM
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#54
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The original intention is barely relevant. It shaped the world's interaction between magic and machine in an incredibly pervasive way.
Additionally, the fact that highly processed items are more magic-resistant than natural items suggests that there are indeed originally-intended reasons beyond balance. ~J |
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Jul 7 2005, 03:47 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Sure, but instead of saying, essence loss reduces magic because this is a GAME and we're balancing the GAME and maybe it doesn't make any sense in the world but if you want to play this GAME you are going to have lower magic when you have cyber, they came up with a reasonable in-character explanation for it. It adds to the flavor instead of providing a distracting reminder of the necessity of game balance.
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Jul 7 2005, 04:48 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Were the italics really necessary?
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Jul 7 2005, 05:10 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Your opinion is a completely valid one, however I've always kinda thought that had more to do with how complex the thingy you are enchanting was. For example, gun = lots of parts, Rock...just rock. From a balance point of view, an enchanted gun is a lot handier than an enchanted rock (well maybe, but an enchanted rock could be pretty cool). I'm not sure I'd call magic/technology a core issue, maybe more of a side note that things that have been steralised tend to be that way on both planes? |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:17 AM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 7-July 05 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 7,486 |
I don't really know much about SR before the third edition, but I wouldn't say that man vs machine is pervasive. You raise an interesting concept, but it isn't one I would have picked up on without someone bringing it to my attention. I've never seen magic and technology as being at odds in any kind of fighting way. Sure, removing chunks of your body and replacing them with steel lowers essence and hence magic, but that does not mean that technology and magic hold any ill will against each other, just means that cyberware is not a good conductor of magic. Magic is still pretty rare anyway compared to other things like technology, so I guess I've never seen it as a vs thing. I suppose you could use that aspect in a campagin but I wouldn't call it a key component of the game. |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:18 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I was trying to achieve the distraction effect with the word game in caps, and it worked better for me in italics.
But what about a wind chime made out of rare twigs, branches, seashells, and coral? That's incredibly complicated at all scales, thanks largely to the action of formerly living beings, and yet it's easy to enchant.
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Jul 7 2005, 05:24 AM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 7-July 05 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 7,486 |
I really wouldn't call that complicated, I mean, it's pretty for sure, but I could make one of those, fact think I have (I like windchimes, sans magic though)... I'd be pretty hard pressed to actually make a gun. A gun is still by far more complex, and I may be wrong, but isn't it still easier to enchant a rock, or say a lump of metal? |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:26 AM
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#61
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
moreover, single human cell is infinitely more complex than any firearm.
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Jul 7 2005, 05:36 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
If I'm reading MitS correctly, I was wrong, the nature of an item doesn't really matter. what matters is 1) Did you make the item yourself. 2) Did you harvest the components for the item yourself. So if you happen to be a metalurgist, and a gunsmith, you can apply both the virign and the handmade Telsma modifiers to your enchanting test. So the nature doesn't matter as much as the items closeness to the enchanter. No nature necessairy. |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:41 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Point taken.
The difference between a technological device and a highly complex nontechnological device is much more pronounced in target numbers for spells. With enchanting, it's there, but it's more subtle (in that you can "harvest" an orange, but not a semiconductor from a FAB plant). |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:42 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Ok, I'll admit I'm a bit foggy in this area, but you've got me curious. How does tech affect TN? (Other than the whole people with tons of cybeware are harder to heal through magic which is the one I can think of) |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:46 AM
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#65
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the more processed and artificial something is, the higher its OR. OR is usually either the TN for a spell, or is added to the TN.
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Jul 7 2005, 05:54 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Hrmm, Isn't OR mostly how hard it is, like plasticreet is higher than tile? Or am I thinking something else or only part of it? |
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Jul 7 2005, 05:57 AM
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#67
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you're thinking of BR. rules for OR are on page 182 of SR3.
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Jul 7 2005, 06:02 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Ok, now I'm having a duh moment, I'd totally spaced this, Does this apply to all spells, or just as noted? Man, I totally missed this. |
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Jul 7 2005, 06:20 AM
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#69
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
It applies to most spells, but not all. Elemental manips, for example, do damage; so OR doesn't factor in except for secondary effects. Spells like Levitate have their own set of TNs, and specific-case rules always override the general ones.
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Jul 7 2005, 06:25 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
So like if I wanted to cast a analysie device spell on a deck, it'd be the normal TN + the OR? I've been letting my players off easy. Thank you for the help, I do see your point about magic a lot clealer now. |
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Jul 7 2005, 07:59 AM
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#71
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
I think you're reading way too much into the "Man vs Machine" aspect. The distinction between the two is an aspect of the Shadowrun world, but not a defining feature.
Hell, the old slogan under 1st pr early 2nd ed was "Where Man meets Magic and Machine". And I'm sure AH can back me up on this, but it's heavily inferred by a couple of the IE's that one thing they're hoping for in this cycle is that the combination of tech and magic will allow (meta)humanity to actually face the Horrors, rather than simply hide and wait them out. There are no definates in Shadowrun, never have been, never will be. It's never entirely one thing vs another. It's always something in between. Bull |
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Jul 7 2005, 08:12 AM
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#72
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so given 20+ releases of the BBB SR will turn into rifts? :silly:
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Jul 7 2005, 08:25 AM
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#73
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
hey...at least Rifts sells
But I think it is more likely that given 20 editions of the BBB we'd end up with Eartdawn 6th Age...at least based on the way a some of the freelancers seem to think |
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Jul 7 2005, 08:30 AM
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#74
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
those people are old hat, from the time before fasa sold earthdawn. sr1 and sr2 was full of semi-hidden references to earthdawn.
sr3 on the other hand was supposed to sever that connection after the dragonheart incident... now we get crasy ai's and stuff instead ;) |
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Jul 7 2005, 09:46 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Metroplex Member No.: 217 |
You're throwing a lot at me that I didn't say or believe I even portrayed. Of course its subjective. Did Michelangelo create good art? Did SR1 have more of a folklore and cyberpunk feel than SR2? I never said anything about Mages being all corporate. But read the SR1 literature (and even much after) and you'll find that the logical thinking mind of the mage is much more in agreement. Magic and Machine aren't at war, but there is a choice. Western nations with their logic, corporations, and mages? or Native American Nations with their respect for nature, Shamans, and Paranormal critters? Cultural Traditions or Technological progress? Man meets Magic and Machine and weaves his way between them. Late SR2 lost me and many others when everything just kind of became explained away with "Magic". SR4 will lose me just as quick if it tries to explain all of magic away with formulas and tech. P.S. - Many people seem to think Earthdawn was somehow hinted about from the beginning of SR1. It wasn't. Earthdawn borrowed far more from Shadowrun than Shadowrun every borrowed or tried to make a connection to ED. |
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