 Full-auto shaped-charge ammo shotguns... |
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 Jul 12 2005, 10:21 PM
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#26
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panda!  Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242  |
and using sr4 rules (if the info is correct) he will be looking at D stun very soon as armor now acts more like kevlar. damage absorbed becomes stun ;)
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Jul 13 2005, 01:20 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 384 Joined: 18-August 03 From: North VA Member No.: 5,519 |
I've seen people on this thread talking about the Panther being man-portable...didn't they mention that it was mostly only troll-portable?
I can see mercenaries having one. I can see it being used for highly specialized Shadowruns. But whyever would anyone just keep one around the apartment? Not to mention the difficulty in concealing it. I suppose you could always throw a shade over it and call it a lamp. |
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Jul 13 2005, 04:08 AM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The XM109 has a bore diameter almost 2x that of most conventional anti-material rifles, and it can fire projectiles more than twice as heavy as those fired from even the massive 14.5mm anti-tank rifles, 3x as heavy as those fired from 12.7x99mm rifles such as the Barrett M82/M107. The ammunition it uses was designed for the M307 OCSW, which walks the line between heavy machineguns, automatic grenade launchers and autocannons. I don't know what I'd want to call the XM109, but a "conventional AMR" is not it.
M240, not M249. The recoil of two M249s wouldn't even come close to knocking down an adult human male. Two M240s set on high RoF would no doubt be uncontrollable and would make moving while firing quite difficult, but it still wouldn't knock the shooter down unless he was unprepared -- and it certainly wouldn't spin anybody in circles.
Just take a regular LMG and modify it to fire .22 LR (or, better yet, a similarly low-powered centerfire cartridge) at 2000+rpm. You'd get away with 1/3rd the weight, and several times the handling and maneuverability. Although you'd still be far better off with frangible ammunition (specifically designed not to penetrate objects) in a regular SMG. |
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Jul 13 2005, 08:04 AM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 28 Joined: 25-June 05 Member No.: 7,463 |
To quote one of my other friends. Now pinging light ammo against heavy armor faster than ever before. Autocannon are NOT anti-material rifles. |
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Jul 13 2005, 08:09 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's only true against hardened armor. unless they're in milspec or an armored vehicle, 9000 rounds of .22LR will do anybody in.
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Jul 13 2005, 08:24 AM
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#31
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Just look at the SuperMach, as a for instance. 6L is pretty pitiful, but 6L properly boosted with significant full auto/burst fire mods, and by a decent shooter with a couple successes? It'll kill most anything.
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Jul 13 2005, 08:25 AM
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#32
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Even if he IS in Milspec armor, he'd better be a fragging huge troll who weighs about 600 Kg, or that'll definately knock him down, at least.
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Jul 13 2005, 12:28 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
With conventional firearms, the target is always pushed back with less force than the shooter, since the shooter also has to deal with the propellant gases and the bullets slow down quite quickly. Thus unless the .22 LR minigun would knock down anyone but a 600kg troll trying to fire it, it would absolutely not (physically, with an application of force from the bullets) knock down a 600kg troll being fired at. 150 bullets/sec, 0.0026kg @ 335m/s each, 130.65 Newtons (~30 pounds) of force. Not likely to knock a troll down. |
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Jul 13 2005, 02:55 PM
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#34
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Unless it's taking place in Shadowrun and you're using strictly by-the-book knockdown tests.
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Jul 13 2005, 03:20 PM
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#35
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
which is based mostly on hollywood action star physics
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Jul 13 2005, 04:36 PM
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#36
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Austere, I was imagining a MOUNTED minigun, firing 3000 rounds/second, or 9000 in a combat turn.
Redo that calculation of yours with 3000 instead of 150. |
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Jul 13 2005, 05:02 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You truly have a wild imagination, then.
The highest any minigun in existence has ever managed is a bit over 10000rpm/167rps (the XM214 prototype) -- nearly all mounted miniguns have cyclic RoFs in the 2000-6000rpm range. I'm pretty sure the feed system could not facilitate a cyclic RoF much higher than that. To get to 90000rpm, then, you'd basically need 6+ miniguns set up as a single weapon system -- or a MetalStorm anti-missile defense platform. |
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Jul 13 2005, 05:17 PM
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#38
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
AE - Remember, 2060s > 2005. I'm sure they've come up with a higher rate of fire. It might well be multiple minis in one. Or maybe it's MetalStorm .22 LR chaingun? :)
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Jul 13 2005, 05:18 PM
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#39
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Reminds me of the "Iron Laser" in Underground.
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Jul 13 2005, 05:28 PM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I have to admit, I kind of like the idea of dropping several hundred thousand on an array of .22LR weapons.
Ridiculous Array of Insignificant... Dumb weapons? |
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Jul 13 2005, 05:33 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
There cannot be such a thing as a "MetalStorm chaingun", since the operating mechanism of MetalStorm weapons is unique and totally incompatible with the principles of conventional automatic weapons like chainguns.
Note that I admitted a possible max RoF of 16000+rpm, which is already over 50% higher than anything anyone has managed to squeeze out of miniguns so far. Frankly, I don't see much reason for anyone to push the envelope in that regard since other limiting factors come into play (for example overheating) and there are other, easier ways of getting insanely high cyclic RoFs without some of the downsides of a minigun. As for multiple .22 LR miniguns in a single weapon system, yeah, very likely. I can almost see the logic. .22 LR miniguns to deal with overpenetration problems of ranged combat in built-up areas -> massive, vehicle-mounted weapon platforms to get a sufficiently high RoF on the fucker to kill things dead -> an M163 with 1/50th the range and 1/10th the effectiveness against hard targets, but chews up light structures 5 times as fast. |
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Jul 13 2005, 05:43 PM
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#42
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Well, with Dikoting in SR, overheating is much less of an issue on material.
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Jul 13 2005, 05:53 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
How much of a difference would a diamond coating make, when the barrel is mainly heated by the propellant gases inside them? It might reduce resultant barrel wear significantly, but I figure once you get up to around 1500C something really bad is going to happen regardless.
Unless, of course, we develop composite materials to make barrels and bolts out of that do not suffer from high temperatures at all, at least until you get over 2000C. |
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Jul 13 2005, 05:51 PM
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#44
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Well, the Dikote process utilizes plasma that reaches extremely high temperatures, at or around 2000 should be easily handled by the coating. The text does mention that it is used in disipating heat didn't it?
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Jul 13 2005, 05:56 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yes, the Dikoting process discussed in M&M (which, as Cray74 has pointed out quite a few times, is old, slow and expensive) does involve very high temperatures. However, that just means the item being Dikoted is heated up. Heating a barrel up to 2000C and then cooling it back down gradually during manufacturing doesn't make the resultant weapon any more heat-resistant.
Not in M&M, at least. It only says it "conducts heat well", which means the barrel and bolt are going to heat up just as fast. [Edit]BTW, if materials were developed that firearm parts like the bolt and the barrel could be made out of and that were extremely heat-resistant, then there'd be no real point in using miniguns in the first place.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 13 2005, 06:08 PM |
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Jul 13 2005, 06:12 PM
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#46
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
fair enough as they are a clumsy attempt as dividing the heat among many barrels.
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Jul 13 2005, 10:14 PM
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#47
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Wow. This thread has been thoroughly mind-numbing.
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Jul 13 2005, 10:42 PM
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#48
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
And to think I just wanted to get opinions on exploding shotgun shells.
=) -karma |
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Jul 13 2005, 10:45 PM
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#49
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Hmmmmmmmm...
You could also use hypothetical LESH rounds - Low Explosive Squash Head rounds. It still has the problem of not being able to do anything against a hardened target, but it will do a great deal to a less hardened target, and won't do much more than leave extremely large scorch marks on the walls. |
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Jul 13 2005, 10:51 PM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Heh. Low explosives don't so much "explode" as much as "burn" unless properly encouraged (say, with high explosives). Low explosives by definition will deflagrate rather than detonate under normal circumstances.
~J |
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