I'm pretty sure the FRAG-12 ammo itself was mentioned here a while back, but I can't find the post.

But, could someone please tell me, how many situations could possibly come up where you would need to full-auto spray shaped-charge munitions about at close-quarter shotgun ranges?

At least ones where you wouldn't rather carry an assault cannon or grenade launcher?

Also, was it ever concluded on what the FRAG-12 ammo would be mechanics wise in the SR universe?


-karma

cleaning out insurections in an urban enviroment?

to bad most of the buildings in those areas are made of brick. if not then one could basicly spray down the walls of a room to make sure nothing inside is alive

Assault cannons aren't real. The closest we have is Barrett's 25mm payload rifle, and it's not something to drag to a fight. It's designed for range.

Grenade launchers are potentially too powerful for some situations and undeniably slow to reload (and full auto grenade launchers are really not very portable). The automatic shotgun allows you to lay down precise, powerful fire that can reliable penetrate light armor and cover with the option of putting out substantially more firepower if necessary.

And all it takes is using one of the most offensively hideous shotguns ever devised.

Okay, I'll buy that.

I guess I was thinking in terms of traditional shotgun usage in warfare, close quarter MOUT fighting. Anti-personnel room clearing roles.

I imagine an AA-12 prepped with that ammo would take on a signifigantly altered role from that. And it appears much more portable than say a LMG or MMG.

Love the picture they have of the kid firing the AA-12. Gotta start em young!

I'm just wondering on whether to use EX Eplosive rules in-game, perhaps with AV capacity added in. Or maybe something more aggresive?


-karma

It definitely is useful in MOUT. Just not really a CQB weapon, though I imagine it'd still be reasonably applicable there. Possibly one of the best things about it is that it allows a single soldier to effectively and immediately disable a light vehicle— in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, say, a suicide car or truck bomb. And, of course, still quite an effective antipersonnel weapon, if a tad on the expensive side with explosive ammunition, I'd guess.

In game, I'd probably combine AV and EX, but that's a bit munchkinny if your game isn't already on realistic rules (and if it is, that's an unsatisfying oversimplification of how such a weapon would work).

Now here's the real question...

Is it not possible that we are, in fact, seeing the beginnings of assualt cannon?

I, personally, love this idea. I'd take a squad armed with these bad boys into the mix.

hmm, a full-auto panther...

Adarael: You do realize how massive recoilless rifles are, measured by size/mass of the projectile? The US M20 75mm RR fired a projectile weighing 3.19lbs (1.45kg), and the standard cartridge of the M67 90mm RR had a projectile weighing 6.75lbs (3.06kg).

For comparison, bullets for 12.7mm HMGs/ATRs/heavy sniper rifles usually weigh around 0.04-0.05kg. A 20mm autocannon, such as the M61A1/A2 Vulcan employed in several US military aircraft and air defense platforms, will fire projectiles weighing about 0.08-0.12kg, and at velocities well in excess of what the 12.7mms are capable of.

25mm autocannon projectiles can easily weigh 0.2kg, and are often fired at even greater velocities. The 25x59Bmm Barret XM109 Payload Rifle and the XM25 fire projectiles a bit lighter than that, probably in the 0.1-0.15kg range, and at velocities far lower than any cannons (2600fps vs 3300+fps).

[Edit]Make that ~1700fps vs 3300+fps. 2600fps is often quoted for the muzzle velocity of the XM109 in unofficial sources, but as Raygun pointed out to me, it's an extremely unlikely MV for the weapon. Judging by the (official, tested) recoil energy and impulse and the projectile sizes, "less than 1800fps" is a decent guess for the MV of the XM109.[/Edit]

40mm autocannons, such as you can see aboard military ships for close defense against both small vessels and aircraft, fire projectiles weighing ~0.6-1kg in weight. These are extremely heavy weapons, bolted onto the ship's deck (or sometimes a tracked vehicle). Even 57mm shipboard autocannons (which could even be classed as Light Naval Guns) fire projectiles lighter (~2-2.6kg) than the M67 RR.

So, what was I getting at again... Right: Recoilless rifles, both WW2-era and modern, are very, very different from any shoulder-fired personal weapons in existence today. A personal shoulder-fired weapon firing a common autocannon cartridge from a barrel of similar length would only serve to shatter collarbones; thus if Rigger 2 described autocannons as basically automatic Panthers, you can simply ignore that. A shoulder-fired weapon firing a 1.45kg projectile at 1000fps (similar to the lightest of recoilless rifles) would always put its shooter on his/her ass (442kgm/s of momentum = a 100kg merc will be going backwards at 4.4m/s).

And like Birdy has explained at length, recoilless rifles are still used today (although the cartridges usually look different from their 40s/50s/60s-counterparts), they are and have always been anti-vehicular(/anti-bunker/barrier-breaching) weapons first and foremost, they are completely different from any description of assault cannons seen in Shadowrun or cyberpunk in general.

See also:
Just what is an 'assault cannon'?
Assault Cannons

Birdy:

Because the point has become picked apart based on the entire idea of what an RR is, and is not, I will reiterate the few points that have only marginal importance to what I was originally trying to say.

1) The panther assault cannon is huge, unweildy, and described as being about as tall as a person in various shadowtalk segments.
2) The shells are described (in the weapon discription) as being high-explosive shells, not a round with any form of penetrator. In shadowtalk, they're mentioned as being about as big as someone's forearm.
3) The autocannons described in Rigger 2 are noted to be pretty much just scaled-up Panthers, but are not man-portable in any way, shape, or form.

Now, I'm done with this conversation, because I realized that people are trying to change my mind about what a fictional weapon grew out of, and how it would make more sense for it to have come from weapon A, rather than weapon B. Such an argument cannot be reliably concluded, I think.

Now, just for politeness sake:

Birdy's Points:
Carl Gustav M2: The Carl Gustav M2 is not the same weapon as what I think of when you say 'panzerfaust'. I think of the German 'Panzerfaust'
30, 60, 100, etc - the RPG system the Nazis used during WW2. This weapon is decidedly different than the M2, in that it fires a rocket propelled grenade rather than a rocket-boosted shell. Sorry about the confusion - but I have to admit I was confused why you'd suggest an RPG was a recoilless rifle. Especially considering the German Panzerfausts couldn't be reloaded.
2) The Panther is listed as 18kg unloaded, with every 10 rounds of ammo weighing 1.5kg. Though I confess, I'm not sure if this means anything for ANY argument, as many heavy pistols weight 3.25 kg when unloaded.
3) HESH: Huh. I thought HESH didn't crater. Well, that's fair, then!
4) The 'Cobra': Sure, the name's different in robocop, but the panther drawing and the cobra are near identical (I think the cobra has a muzzle brake, though), and what's his name DOES say, "This is a grade A+ bang-bang", just as does Neon Samurai. I'm suspicious that they just lifted it cuz they liked Robocop.

Austere's Points:
1) Yes, I do realize how massive RRs are. Depending on the artist, the Panther should be anywhere between 3.5 and 6 feet in length. That plus the usual bore size depicted is what lead me to think, "Huh, RR."
2) Just as a note, the autocannons in Rigger 2 aren't man portable. Sorry if I gave that impression. They do slightly more damage, too, to the tune of 20D and 22D rather than 18D.

Eh. I think Assault cannons ought to be stripped from Shadowrun, period. I'm tired of runners thinking they'll solve their problems. Sadly, I'm a hypocrite, because my PC got one.

To be fair, though, he mounted it on his tilt-wing aircraft.

the more you look at assault cannon, the less sense they make. these things launch huge shells, and launches them almost two and a half times as far as a sniper rifle. kee-rist, that's some recoil.

By the time Terminator 2 came around I recall they had improved the mini-gun prop considerably - it no longer needed the bracing, being almost totally custom-rebuilt from the ground up for the role, rather than taking an existing real-life mini-gun and cutting it down.

That said, it was said to be still so heavy and tiring that only Arnie had the muscle strength or endurance to swing it around for any real length of time. It also wasn't really portable - power cables from the gun ran to a sizable electrical generator hidden off camera.


-karma

Jesse V used the 7.62mm version? I was sure it was the 5.56mm version.

From a movie prop view point, mechanically operated weapons like miniguns are especially easy to set up, because you don't have to worry about your blanks being powerful enough to operate the action. I wouldn't be surprised if the blank rounds were more flash powder than gunpowder, just for the ooh aah factor.

From a tactical standpoint, I agree with AE. There are only 2 situations I think a minigun is called for: Firing _at_ an aerial target, and firing _from_ an aerial target.

Ed's about right. Though as history has proven time and again, effective antiaircraft guns are brutally devestating anti-infantry guns. So any place that has minigun-based AA will probably go the extra mile into making them depress far enough for some 'crowd-control' action.

Another potential use for them would be as low-penetration weapons for use as interoir killers. .22 LR is a pitiful round, probably only used completely in the plinking role in the 2060s, but if you're cranking out 9000 of them per combat round, they will add up, even against a cybered out troll with dermal 3 and in sec armor.

and using sr4 rules (if the info is correct) he will be looking at D stun very soon as armor now acts more like kevlar. damage absorbed becomes stun

I've seen people on this thread talking about the Panther being man-portable...didn't they mention that it was mostly only troll-portable?

I can see mercenaries having one. I can see it being used for highly specialized Shadowruns. But whyever would anyone just keep one around the apartment? Not to mention the difficulty in concealing it.

I suppose you could always throw a shade over it and call it a lamp.

that's only true against hardened armor. unless they're in milspec or an armored vehicle, 9000 rounds of .22LR will do anybody in.

Just look at the SuperMach, as a for instance. 6L is pretty pitiful, but 6L properly boosted with significant full auto/burst fire mods, and by a decent shooter with a couple successes? It'll kill most anything.

Even if he IS in Milspec armor, he'd better be a fragging huge troll who weighs about 600 Kg, or that'll definately knock him down, at least.

Unless it's taking place in Shadowrun and you're using strictly by-the-book knockdown tests.

which is based mostly on hollywood action star physics

Austere, I was imagining a MOUNTED minigun, firing 3000 rounds/second, or 9000 in a combat turn.

Redo that calculation of yours with 3000 instead of 150.

You truly have a wild imagination, then.

The highest any minigun in existence has ever managed is a bit over 10000rpm/167rps (the XM214 prototype) -- nearly all mounted miniguns have cyclic RoFs in the 2000-6000rpm range. I'm pretty sure the feed system could not facilitate a cyclic RoF much higher than that. To get to 90000rpm, then, you'd basically need 6+ miniguns set up as a single weapon system -- or a MetalStorm anti-missile defense platform.

AE - Remember, 2060s > 2005. I'm sure they've come up with a higher rate of fire. It might well be multiple minis in one. Or maybe it's MetalStorm .22 LR chaingun?

Reminds me of the "Iron Laser" in Underground.

I have to admit, I kind of like the idea of dropping several hundred thousand on an array of .22LR weapons.

Ridiculous Array of Insignificant... Dumb weapons?

There cannot be such a thing as a "MetalStorm chaingun", since the operating mechanism of MetalStorm weapons is unique and totally incompatible with the principles of conventional automatic weapons like chainguns.

Well, with Dikoting in SR, overheating is much less of an issue on material.

How much of a difference would a diamond coating make, when the barrel is mainly heated by the propellant gases inside them? It might reduce resultant barrel wear significantly, but I figure once you get up to around 1500C something really bad is going to happen regardless.

Unless, of course, we develop composite materials to make barrels and bolts out of that do not suffer from high temperatures at all, at least until you get over 2000C.

Well, the Dikote process utilizes plasma that reaches extremely high temperatures, at or around 2000 should be easily handled by the coating. The text does mention that it is used in disipating heat didn't it?

Yes, the Dikoting process discussed in M&M (which, as Cray74 has pointed out quite a few times, is old, slow and expensive) does involve very high temperatures. However, that just means the item being Dikoted is heated up. Heating a barrel up to 2000C and then cooling it back down gradually during manufacturing doesn't make the resultant weapon any more heat-resistant.

fair enough as they are a clumsy attempt as dividing the heat among many barrels.

Wow. This thread has been thoroughly mind-numbing.

And to think I just wanted to get opinions on exploding shotgun shells.

=)


-karma

Hmmmmmmmm...

You could also use hypothetical LESH rounds - Low Explosive Squash Head rounds. It still has the problem of not being able to do anything against a hardened target, but it will do a great deal to a less hardened target, and won't do much more than leave extremely large scorch marks on the walls.

Heh. Low explosives don't so much "explode" as much as "burn" unless properly encouraged (say, with high explosives). Low explosives by definition will deflagrate rather than detonate under normal circumstances.

~J