 Full-auto shaped-charge ammo shotguns... |
  |
 Jul 11 2005, 04:39 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Old Man Jones  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699  |
I'm pretty sure the FRAG-12 ammo itself was mentioned here a while back, but I can't find the post.
But, could someone please tell me, how many situations could possibly come up where you would need to full-auto spray shaped-charge munitions about at close-quarter shotgun ranges? At least ones where you wouldn't rather carry an assault cannon or grenade launcher? Also, was it ever concluded on what the FRAG-12 ammo would be mechanics wise in the SR universe? -karma |
 |
 
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 05:04 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
cleaning out insurections in an urban enviroment?
to bad most of the buildings in those areas are made of brick. if not then one could basicly spray down the walls of a room to make sure nothing inside is alive :P |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 05:07 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Assault cannons aren't real. The closest we have is Barrett's 25mm payload rifle, and it's not something to drag to a fight. It's designed for range.
Grenade launchers are potentially too powerful for some situations and undeniably slow to reload (and full auto grenade launchers are really not very portable). The automatic shotgun allows you to lay down precise, powerful fire that can reliable penetrate light armor and cover with the option of putting out substantially more firepower if necessary. And all it takes is using one of the most offensively hideous shotguns ever devised. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 05:21 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
Okay, I'll buy that.
I guess I was thinking in terms of traditional shotgun usage in warfare, close quarter MOUT fighting. Anti-personnel room clearing roles. I imagine an AA-12 prepped with that ammo would take on a signifigantly altered role from that. And it appears much more portable than say a LMG or MMG. Love the picture they have of the kid firing the AA-12. Gotta start em young! I'm just wondering on whether to use EX Eplosive rules in-game, perhaps with AV capacity added in. Or maybe something more aggresive? -karma |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 05:27 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It definitely is useful in MOUT. Just not really a CQB weapon, though I imagine it'd still be reasonably applicable there. Possibly one of the best things about it is that it allows a single soldier to effectively and immediately disable a light vehicle— in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, say, a suicide car or truck bomb. And, of course, still quite an effective antipersonnel weapon, if a tad on the expensive side with explosive ammunition, I'd guess.
In game, I'd probably combine AV and EX, but that's a bit munchkinny if your game isn't already on realistic rules (and if it is, that's an unsatisfying oversimplification of how such a weapon would work). |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 06:03 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Now here's the real question...
Is it not possible that we are, in fact, seeing the beginnings of assualt cannon? :) I, personally, love this idea. I'd take a squad armed with these bad boys into the mix. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 08:10 AM
Post
#7
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, a full-auto panther...
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 08:47 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
You forgot to mention door breaches...which this thing prolly wouldn't be too useful for either. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 11 2005, 09:16 AM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I beg to differ. The various classes of recoilless rifle are near-identical to the panther assault cannon (in terms of 'what they do') save two features: -Ammo capacity; recoilless rifles are single-round weapons. -Rate of fire; while effectively 'single shot; with regards to speed, the one-shell-only ammo capacity of recoilless rifles renders this slightly moot. As described, the man portable 'assault cannon' fires either an HDX or RDX explosive shell, which is essentially the same as saying 'a higher power artillery round than was used in the recoilless'. Hence, all that's essentially different between the real and the Shadowrun weapons is the mode of gas venting and recoil braking involved. I.E. the assault cannon becomes a 'high tech' RR. With regards to non-man-portable assault cannons, I figure you need look no further than most autocannons on vehicles. There's no reason why someone couldn't make a multi-round recoilless, save the fact that rockets and missiles have become drastically more effective, lighter, and more accurate than the recoilless rifle. As to the use of 'dragging an assault cannon to a fight'... god, I hope not. At least not if you're fighting people. Not enough ROF, too much weight, too much noise, and hideously conspicuous. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 11 2005, 09:53 AM
Post
#10
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Are we talking about the same weapon here? To me recoilless rifles are weapons like the "Carl Gustav", the RPG-7, german post WWII Panzerfausts the US Bazooka and from there on upwards in caliber to the 106 and 120mm guns like WOMBAT. Most of those "rifles" are heavier than a good old fashioned Maschine gun, about as unwieldy and probably less useful. Even the "non backblast" systems like Panzerfaust III still have the need of a 2m "safety zone" and older systems have an ugly fire/hot counterweight-trail out the back. The Panther is most likely a decendent of the "Boys", "Soloturn 100" and "PTRx" series of Anti-Tank rifles using a HESH or HEAT warhead for additional effect. Totally different beasts technology-wise as are RR and automatic cannons. One of the major problems of a self loading RR is the lack of recoil to trigger the reload so you need either a gas-operated loading system (that adds new problems) or and external loading system like the Apache ChainGun to reload the weapon (that needs an external power source). Coupled with a rather large casing and the need of an RR to have an opening both at the front (projectile) and back (countermass or gas-jet) building a self-loading RR is extremly complex (IIRC non exist, non where ever planned) If one wants a portable "full auto..." maybe a look at the IRL SouthAfrikan MM-1 grenade launcher (basically a 12-round drum system, using the 40mm low-vel grenades) is interesting. Oh and RR are still pretty much in use IRL, they are just no longer called RR. Basically every reloadable AntiTank Rocket (as opposed to ATGM) is one. What actually killed the bigger RR where the duo of reliable ATGM and the development long(or soft) recoil systems that allowed 105mm cannon to be mounted on rather small chassis. Birdy |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 11 2005, 10:28 AM
Post
#11
|
|||||||||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Probably on some level. The Panther's commonalities with RRs seem to be greater with regards to WW2, Korean War and early Vietnam era RRs than later developments. Primarily due to the phase-out of high explosive shells as an RR load, and the phase-in of the aforementioned rockets, ATGMs, et cetera. Once you enter into the territory of bazookas, panzerfausts, et cetera, you cease to be in RR territory, at least in execution. While in function they may perform similarly, a rocket delivery system is not, strictly speaking, a rifle. It's an anti-tank weapon, sure, but the entire payload is different. Modern RPGs aren't considered RRs, hence I don't see why the Panzerfaust and bazooka should be.
As is - at least as far as I recall - the Panther. That's simply a nitpick on my part, though.
In turn, I would suggest not, based on two mitigating factors. 1) The Boys, Soloturn 100, and PTRx were designed to defeat armor, firing standard penetrators. The Panther, on the other hand, is not described as firing rounds that are armor-piercing in the same way APDS or AV rounds are - rather, it is described as firing a high-explosive, cratering charge. That, and the fact that the panther lacks such rules within the game, suggests to me a less directed charge, much in the same fashion as old RR shells were high-explosive, but not specifically HEAT or HESH. 2) The descriptions of the autocannons in Rigger 2 suggested that they were merely automatic panthers. I could be misremembering the description, though.
I never said it would be a good idea to make a panther-like RR, or even that such an idea had any merit at all. I just said it would be possible. My essential point is this - the panther may be fictional, sure, but I don't think the Barret 25mm is the closest representation to what it's supposed to be/do that we have. The 25mm in my mind would be a Barret 121-T, from Fields of Fire - especially given the special properties of the 121's ammo. (In case those of you reading aren't aware, the Panther Assault Cannon was taken from the movie Robocop. Neon Samurai's quote in the original Street Samurai Catalog is also a quote from the film.) |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jul 11 2005, 11:28 AM
Post
#12
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Sorry but at least the Carl Gustav M2 (84mm aka schwere Panzerfaust) and the US 90mm (Korean era RR) are man-portable (lugged the former around) recoilless rifles, not rocket systems. RR are all weapons where the charge burns up in the weapon (so actually the Panzerfaust 1 is an RR too) And the term RR is not used generally but applies to both systems that use a gas vent (i.e the Carl Gustav) and to countermass-weapons (i.e the PzFst 1 - that is NOT the WWII PzFst-30, it's a post 1960s reusable weapon with much more complexity)
What does a Panther weight? A good maschine gun is 12kg+Ammo
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_infweapons_recoilless.php A lot of RR's have (and always had) dedicated HEAT shells and where mainly used for anti-tank jobs prior to the ATGM. HESH is rare since few RR are fast enough for it to work[the Plastic needs to flatten out and stick]. Quite a few RR where used by Tank Hunter teams and HE does "shit" against any resonable armor (Say M26 Pershing and better). The other two rounds common to RR are HE (against infantry) and ILUM(battlefield light). I.e german 1960s Panzerjäger (Tank Hunter) On the other hand HESH (High Explosiv Squash Head) is actually a cratering charge and fits the description of the Panther (a mallable plastic explosiv) to the point. And HESH is not considered AntiTank but rather multi-purpose, it just works against elder tanks (without spall liner and spaced armor) As for the ammo: When the above weapons where designed (pre 1940) nobody used HEAT against tanks, IIRC no HEAT-projectiles existed (the HEAT charges in Eben Emael where fixed demo-charges). And since they could penetrate the tanks of their time, nobody saw a need for HEAT. A second fact to consider is that small caliber HEAT charges are a relatively new (IIRC post WWII, there was no 37mm HEAT despite the potential usefulness i.e) development and there is a minimum size involved in the design since penetration is linked to diameter (IIRC 1.5xdiameter) and distance between cone base and target (requiring a complex fuse, far more complex than small HE). I agree on the SR-description in so far as the use similar ammo / principles but even then they are autocannons and your example is only valid if Panther is an RR.
It is also possible to mount a 5cm canon on a jet fighter. Unless you have a madman running the show, it is still something nobody does. For the military to do something it has to make sense. And a RR based Panther has the following problems: + Extremly complex loading system + Backblast that requires a safty zone and, more importants, highlights the firing position + Relatively heavy shells (RR uses more powder than conventional weapons) + Relatively fragile shells compared to conventional rounds
The 121s ammo is on size with the 12.7x99mm BMG fired by real world sniper rifles. That weapon clearly is the M82 "Light Fifty" of Shadowrun
Actually the Robocop gun is the "Cobra" and that is from the behaviour and all a classical cannon, not an RR gun (no backblast) Birdy |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
Jul 11 2005, 04:50 PM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Adarael: You do realize how massive recoilless rifles are, measured by size/mass of the projectile? The US M20 75mm RR fired a projectile weighing 3.19lbs (1.45kg), and the standard cartridge of the M67 90mm RR had a projectile weighing 6.75lbs (3.06kg).
For comparison, bullets for 12.7mm HMGs/ATRs/heavy sniper rifles usually weigh around 0.04-0.05kg. A 20mm autocannon, such as the M61A1/A2 Vulcan employed in several US military aircraft and air defense platforms, will fire projectiles weighing about 0.08-0.12kg, and at velocities well in excess of what the 12.7mms are capable of. 25mm autocannon projectiles can easily weigh 0.2kg, and are often fired at even greater velocities. The 25x59Bmm Barret XM109 Payload Rifle and the XM25 fire projectiles a bit lighter than that, probably in the 0.1-0.15kg range, and at velocities far lower than any cannons (2600fps vs 3300+fps). [Edit]Make that ~1700fps vs 3300+fps. 2600fps is often quoted for the muzzle velocity of the XM109 in unofficial sources, but as Raygun pointed out to me, it's an extremely unlikely MV for the weapon. Judging by the (official, tested) recoil energy and impulse and the projectile sizes, "less than 1800fps" is a decent guess for the MV of the XM109.[/Edit] 40mm autocannons, such as you can see aboard military ships for close defense against both small vessels and aircraft, fire projectiles weighing ~0.6-1kg in weight. These are extremely heavy weapons, bolted onto the ship's deck (or sometimes a tracked vehicle). Even 57mm shipboard autocannons (which could even be classed as Light Naval Guns) fire projectiles lighter (~2-2.6kg) than the M67 RR. So, what was I getting at again... Right: Recoilless rifles, both WW2-era and modern, are very, very different from any shoulder-fired personal weapons in existence today. A personal shoulder-fired weapon firing a common autocannon cartridge from a barrel of similar length would only serve to shatter collarbones; thus if Rigger 2 described autocannons as basically automatic Panthers, you can simply ignore that. A shoulder-fired weapon firing a 1.45kg projectile at 1000fps (similar to the lightest of recoilless rifles) would always put its shooter on his/her ass (442kgm/s of momentum = a 100kg merc will be going backwards at 4.4m/s). And like Birdy has explained at length, recoilless rifles are still used today (although the cartridges usually look different from their 40s/50s/60s-counterparts), they are and have always been anti-vehicular(/anti-bunker/barrier-breaching) weapons first and foremost, they are completely different from any description of assault cannons seen in Shadowrun or cyberpunk in general. See also: Just what is an 'assault cannon'? Assault Cannons This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 14 2005, 05:03 PM |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 09:10 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Birdy:
Because the point has become picked apart based on the entire idea of what an RR is, and is not, I will reiterate the few points that have only marginal importance to what I was originally trying to say. 1) The panther assault cannon is huge, unweildy, and described as being about as tall as a person in various shadowtalk segments. 2) The shells are described (in the weapon discription) as being high-explosive shells, not a round with any form of penetrator. In shadowtalk, they're mentioned as being about as big as someone's forearm. 3) The autocannons described in Rigger 2 are noted to be pretty much just scaled-up Panthers, but are not man-portable in any way, shape, or form. Now, I'm done with this conversation, because I realized that people are trying to change my mind about what a fictional weapon grew out of, and how it would make more sense for it to have come from weapon A, rather than weapon B. Such an argument cannot be reliably concluded, I think. Now, just for politeness sake: Birdy's Points: Carl Gustav M2: The Carl Gustav M2 is not the same weapon as what I think of when you say 'panzerfaust'. I think of the German 'Panzerfaust' 30, 60, 100, etc - the RPG system the Nazis used during WW2. This weapon is decidedly different than the M2, in that it fires a rocket propelled grenade rather than a rocket-boosted shell. Sorry about the confusion - but I have to admit I was confused why you'd suggest an RPG was a recoilless rifle. Especially considering the German Panzerfausts couldn't be reloaded. 2) The Panther is listed as 18kg unloaded, with every 10 rounds of ammo weighing 1.5kg. Though I confess, I'm not sure if this means anything for ANY argument, as many heavy pistols weight 3.25 kg when unloaded. 3) HESH: Huh. I thought HESH didn't crater. Well, that's fair, then! 4) The 'Cobra': Sure, the name's different in robocop, but the panther drawing and the cobra are near identical (I think the cobra has a muzzle brake, though), and what's his name DOES say, "This is a grade A+ bang-bang", just as does Neon Samurai. I'm suspicious that they just lifted it cuz they liked Robocop. Austere's Points: 1) Yes, I do realize how massive RRs are. Depending on the artist, the Panther should be anywhere between 3.5 and 6 feet in length. That plus the usual bore size depicted is what lead me to think, "Huh, RR." 2) Just as a note, the autocannons in Rigger 2 aren't man portable. Sorry if I gave that impression. They do slightly more damage, too, to the tune of 20D and 22D rather than 18D. Eh. I think Assault cannons ought to be stripped from Shadowrun, period. I'm tired of runners thinking they'll solve their problems. Sadly, I'm a hypocrite, because my PC got one. To be fair, though, he mounted it on his tilt-wing aircraft. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 11 2005, 09:38 PM
Post
#15
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Well, the MG-3 isn't small either at 1.2m length, neither is an AT-rifle like the finish L39 (20mm) http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinAT/FIN...INantitank2.htm Btw. that gun can punch through a Panzer IVs side armor as late as 1941
Mallebal plastic explosiv is a term used at least once. That sounds like HESH. Btw: HESH does not form a penetrator. The only weapon types that do are HEAP/HEAT (HE Armor Piercing / HE Anti Tank), HEDP (HE Dual Purpose) and SEFOP (self forging Penetrator, used in some Anti Tank Missiles)
Since SR does not tell us in "what way" they are scaled up and does not use cartridge length, it could very well be that the use a longer (more powerful) cartridge but the same bullet. Has been done quite a few times IRL i.e the various 75mm rounds of WWII Panzers had basically the same bullet but varing cases (the longer the barell, the longer the cartridge)
Thats why I stated that I am refering to post WWII reloadable Panzerfausts even in the original post as well as a variety of reloadable AT rockets (Bazooka, RPG-7 etc)
Btw: The Panzerfaust was used by the German Army! not by the Nazis. Big difference and I take personel offence when someone calls family members Nazi - No one in my family was ever an NSdAP Member!
A lot. The light ammo hints at a classic gun rather than an RR. Even more so since SR ammo is well known to be "overweight".
Birdy |
||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||
|
Jul 11 2005, 09:53 PM
Post
#16
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Is there any good reason it isn't painted white? ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 11 2005, 10:22 PM
Post
#17
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Don't ask me, I am not the guy using it :=) My guess is it's a post WWII demonstration or a training photo. We have similar "Babelsberg" photos in the BW training manuals where the soldiers don't wear field gear or cammo-applications either Birdy |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 11 2005, 10:30 PM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the more you look at assault cannon, the less sense they make. these things launch huge shells, and launches them almost two and a half times as far as a sniper rifle. kee-rist, that's some recoil.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 12 2005, 04:25 AM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I can understand that sentiment, but I'm pretty sure you still don't quite realize just how fucking huge the projectiles fired from recoilless rifles are compared to any conventional shoulder-fired small arms. Like I said, the momentum of the projectile alone would be alone to knock down any non-troll trying to fire the thing, regardless of any method of recoil compensation (except a blow-through gas tube, which assault cannons obviously don't have). Try this excercise: tie one end of a long, non-elastic rope around your shoulder and the other end onto a car so that someone in the car can quickly detach it when necessary. Go into a shooting pose with the car behind you. Get the car to accelerate to 10mph (assuming you weigh 220lbs or less) on a straight line away from you. As soon as you get yanked, a passenger should detach the rope from the car. Sound like fun? Can you think of any reason why someone would design a weapon causing that effect on any non-troll trying to fire it?
The XM109/Barrett Payload Rifle, which fires a projectile much heavier than any other rifle I'm aware of and is effective up to 2km away, creates about 60ft-lbs of recoil energy -- compared to 36ft-lbs for a Barrett M82. The recoil of the XM109 is, AFAIK, still considered a bit too stiff for it to become standard issue. Before even considering the effects of propellant gases, a conventional 40lbs gun firing a 1.45kg (22,402gr) shell at 1000fps would create 3976ft-lbs of recoil energy. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 12 2005, 09:41 AM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Nope, but that's always been my complaint with the Panther from the get go, as well as the GE Vindicator minigun. I mean, really. The idea of a man-portable minigun that doesn't spin the guy in circles or knock him over has always struck me as patently ridiculous, without accounting for the ammo weight, storage, and consumption issues. I don't really like the Panther. I imagine you can tell. <G> |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 12 2005, 02:37 PM
Post
#21
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay, that I really don't get. You intentionally read into the flavor text of Assault Cannons in a way to make them seem like huge, unmanageable Cannons of Death, and then think Assault Cannons are silly because of that. Because it's easy to see them as semi-manageable, only partially-silly Cannons of Death. From everything I know about Assault Cannons, from the Robocop movie(s?) and from SR3, it seems to me that the XM109 is a very close RL counterpart. The XM109 can be carried and fired by a single human without too much trouble, and it actually fits some combat roles better than other personal weapon systems (engaging light vehicles at long range). So, instead of adamantly seeing Assault Cannons as Recoiling Recoilless Rifles and hating them because of that, why not just see them as similar to the XM109 (a view better supported by all the evidence anyway) and only consider them a bit silly?
An M134 7.62x51mm minigun has a slower cyclical RoF of 2000rpm. That's basically the same as firing two M240s set on "high" (950-1000rpm) RoF at the same time. Considering that some people are quite capable of controlled autofire from the standing unsupported position with an M240(B/G), I don't see how the M134 @ 2000rpm would "sping a guy in circles". However, I do agree that man-portable miniguns are a silly idea. There are far better weapons available for just about any possible application. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 12 2005, 07:29 PM
Post
#22
|
|||||
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
There's actually a simple enough answer to that... I find their description of the panther and drawings of it at odds with the idea that it would fire a load more like a more conventional anti-materiel (or whatever you wanna call the XM109) rifle. Based on how I read the description long ago (bear in mind I was like, 14 or 15 when I did), that's how the image stuck - a big, artillery shell firing thing that somehow magically negated recoil. Which is why I still give it the squinty eye.
One M249 is one thing. Two, firing at once, held in the same hand... well, that's something else. I don't know for sure that it would. But I know that when they made Predator, they clocked the minigun down as far as they could, used lower-power blanks (because full-grain 7.62 was unmanageable when they tested it), and still had to brace Jesse Ventura upright so he wouldn't fall over. Apparently even turned down that far, the weapon produces about 11kg of recoil continuously. Or at least these were the problems in making a movie with such a weapon in a scene or two. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 12 2005, 08:09 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
By the time Terminator 2 came around I recall they had improved the mini-gun prop considerably - it no longer needed the bracing, being almost totally custom-rebuilt from the ground up for the role, rather than taking an existing real-life mini-gun and cutting it down.
That said, it was said to be still so heavy and tiring that only Arnie had the muscle strength or endurance to swing it around for any real length of time. It also wasn't really portable - power cables from the gun ran to a sizable electrical generator hidden off camera. -karma |
|
|
|
|
Jul 12 2005, 08:24 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Jesse V used the 7.62mm version? I was sure it was the 5.56mm version.
From a movie prop view point, mechanically operated weapons like miniguns are especially easy to set up, because you don't have to worry about your blanks being powerful enough to operate the action. I wouldn't be surprised if the blank rounds were more flash powder than gunpowder, just for the ooh aah factor. From a tactical standpoint, I agree with AE. There are only 2 situations I think a minigun is called for: Firing _at_ an aerial target, and firing _from_ an aerial target. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 12 2005, 09:15 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Ed's about right. Though as history has proven time and again, effective antiaircraft guns are brutally devestating anti-infantry guns. So any place that has minigun-based AA will probably go the extra mile into making them depress far enough for some 'crowd-control' action.
Another potential use for them would be as low-penetration weapons for use as interoir killers. .22 LR is a pitiful round, probably only used completely in the plinking role in the 2060s, but if you're cranking out 9000 of them per combat round, they will add up, even against a cybered out troll with dermal 3 and in sec armor. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th June 2025 - 07:24 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.