New type of shifter, hehehe. It's shark week on discovery Options

[Mortax]

Okay, so if this has been asked before, or someone has rules for it, please post a link. :-)

I was watching sharkweek on discoverychannel, and got an idea for a fun char/npc. A shark shape-shifter. Yes, I know the obviouse problem of poof natural form! Flop, flop. Flop, flop. Here are the stats I came up with:

Human form:
Strength: +2
Body: +4
Quickness: +0
Intellegence: +0
Willpower: -1
Charisma: +0
Reaction: +0
Init: +0
Attack: (Str) M


Shark form:
Strength: +7
Body: +8 /2
Quickness: +2 *3 swimming
Intellegence: +0
Willpower: -1
Charisma: +0
Reaction: +2 (in water)
Init: R+2d6 (in water)
Attack: (Str+2) D

Flaws: Mild allergy water pollutents, Combat Monster
Merits: Nictitating membrains (both forms), Immunity: Cancer


I'm basing this off of the stats given for a large shark in Critters. I'm assuming by large shark they mean tiger shark, and small shark they mean a nurse shark. (Size wise.)

Large Shark:
Strength: 10
Body: 10/2
Quickness: 5 *3 swimming
Intellegence: 2/3
Willpower: 2
Charisma: 0
Reaction: 5
Init: 2d6+5
Attack:12 D

What do you all think of these as stats?

Next question, would you let a player play one?
Our group plays sort of a shadowrun 2.6 :-) so we still have a few old rules, like shifters only regen in animal form. (this could be justified by low mana levels I guess. We are still in the early fifties in our current campain.) This takes away a major bonuse, but still. Of course, can't go to shark form on most runs. "Hahaha! I flop in your general direction!"

Opinions? Thought?

[Herald of Verjig...]

The sum bonuses should not exceed that of the most benefitted shifter currently in the books.
When hypothesizing alternate shifters, I would usually start from something that's present (seal would be closest here) and just shuffle numbers with the math that any mental bonus or penalty is equal to twice as much of a change to any of the 6 physical attributes.

Seal:
B: +1/+2
S: +1/+1
Q: 0/+1
W: 0
I: 0
C: +1
R: 0/+1+1D6

The additional flaws and edges seem fair enough, so no number change on that.
Treat the shark form attack as reach -1, and I won't even have a problem with it at Str+2D physical.

As for attributes, the seal has an effective +8 in normal attributes. With the -1 to willpower you list, that becomes a +10.

So, not so large shark:
B: +2/+4
S: +1/+2
Q: +0/+1
W: -1
I: 0
C: 0
R: 0/+1+1d6
Attack: Str M Stun / Str+2 D (-1 reach)
Shuffle as you see fit. If someone plays this in a mostly land-based game, either lower the cost or let them suffer from the choice.

[Shadow]

Don't shifters revert if they go unconscious?

[Mortax]

:-) Yet another reason shark shifter would not be unballenced. :-)

[Req]

umm, Sharks Don't Get Cancer is kinda the worst fringe science around. :)

[Herald of Verjig...]

There is no mention of forced shifting in Critters or the SR3 Companion that I could find skimming through. It is only listed as an intentional complex action.

[Talia Invierno]

And sharks should have a bonus to CH in their natural form. I mean, look at this thread, and you only saw a show on them ...

[Mortax]

[Herald of Verjig...]

The stats given in Awakened Lands for megaladons do not mention reach, so it is 0.
I have a personal dislike of forced behaviour without even a test. Even including combat monster as a natural flaw for the para-species is pushing it for me, but if your gaming table approves, I won't tell you not to.

[Mortax]

I wasn't exactly thinking combat monster, more the flaw thatshark shamans have.

[Wireknight]

Remember that whatever their form, a shifter retains the same mind and essence. Given that, I would not associate mental attribute modifiers with the shapeshift. As far as the physical modifiers, they're supposed to transform into a larger and more powerful version of the base critter. I'd take the physical attributes of a shark (if they exist; SR's always been a bit lax on statistics and abilities for un-Awakened critters) and subtract 2, and make those the modifiers to one's statistics in shark form. Reduce those modifiers by any modifiers that are present in metahuman form, of course, or they'll otherwise effectively get two beneficial modifiers.

And if the statistics are too high, and in order to balance it you'd have to make shark shapeshifters transform into critters that are pathetically weak compared to the average non-shifter members of their species, then I'd consider scrapping the idea. It wouldn't make sense in-game, even if it was a result of rules-level balancing, for a shifter's critter form to be inferior to a normal critter of that type.

As far as their blood frenzy goes, I'd just base it off the Fenrir Shaman's power, but possibly make it occur when anyone (who bleeds; spirits and the like probably need not apply) takes injuries in the fight, not just the shifter.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Wireknight, you haven't ever read the rules for shifters in the SR3 Companion have you?

They buy up 9 attributes (animal physical, human physical and mental) and get a variety of modifiers to any or all of those 9 attributes based on their species. Also, why not use the shark totem's frenzy as a base for a shark shifter? It seems like a better place to start than a fenrir totem effect.

[Mortax]

Yes, I think I remember wolf shifters getting a +1 to charisma.

Wirenight, I did something similar to what you sudjest for getting the stats. The stats of a shark are in critters. somewhere around page 20.

[Wireknight]

I've read the rules quite thoroughly. I didn't immediately assume that he was intending on creating only a player-character version of the aforementioned shifter, hence my advice on determining the modifiers for shark form (which may be easily extrapolated into the SR3 Companion's rules, which I feel are overly complicated and underpowered; a player in my group once attempted to make a shapeshifter using those rules, and would have had to start off with very poor attributes in all forms in order to have a passably decent number of skills).

And I am fairly certain that under no circumstances should a shifter's mental attributes change from one form to another. This may not be the case in SR4 (with the intution split; intuition increases are a good way to reflect the sharpened senses of some critters), but it is the case in SR3.

[Herald of Verjig...]

Ok, the real question: What in anything that was stated gave you the impression that anyone was providing mental stats that were dependant on the form?

Unless that part was a response to Talia's single intrusion that was most likely meant as comedy.

Side note: I agree that the current rules for shifters make them normally about as potent as a wheeled toaster. The one time I thought shifters were overpowered was from remembering that they had rules in the Companion, but not having those rules. The end result bought up human stats normally, and got base physical stats for the animal type free (with the option of adding points there).

[Wireknight]

I actually misread the willpower reduction as existing only in shark form. It was an oversight on my part.

Can I ask why you appear to be attempting to provoke me with snipes against my apparent knowledge of the rules system and understanding of the thread subject matter?

[Capt. Dave]

Hmm... I have a shapeshifter (fox, full wujen) with 200 Karma and she's a lot better than a wheeled toaster. :P

[Herald of Verjig...]

That last post was because I couldn't find any reference to variable mental stat effects until after I posted. So I edited in the only answer I could find, and apparently it wasn't even the one, instead of completely changing the post in a way that just makes people wonder if someone else had quoted from it before my edit was completed.

The first "snipe" you may be complaining about is in response to a post that displays no apparent understanding of the PC rules for shifters when

[Apathy]

I'm torn:

On the one hand, I think that shifters get the shaft during char gen. Having to buy both human and animal stats give you so few points to spread around that in order to be viable you got to gimp one form or the other. I've never GM'd for a shifter, but I think if I did I might house rule it that the player just has to assign stats to his human form, and his animal form would be calculated off that base value. Plus, you'd better also pick either mage or adept, so you can get masking - otherwise sooner or later some hunter's going to blow your head off for the bounty.

I also agree that, in most campaigns, water creatures will see limited use, so those really high stats won't come into play very often anyway.

Still, I think that the numbers should at least come close to what the Seal shifter gets, since he's nearly as gimped on land as a big fish (I know, sharks aren't fish...whatever).

My take on it:
B: +2/+6(+2 Impact)
S: +1/+4
Q: +0/+1
W: -1
I: 0
C: -2
R: 0/+1+2d6
Attack: Str M Stun / Str+2 D (-1 reach)
*Must make willpower check to keep from going into frenzy when seeing or smelling blood (in or out of combat). When in frenzy he attacks the nearest creature, friend or foe.
*Enhanced Senses: Smell, Magnetic fields (in shark form)
*Degraded Senses: Sight (in shark form)


My argument for the hit to charisma is that how socially developed could somebody with a shark's mentality be? People respond to them just like they would supposedly respond to trolls: get the hell out of the way and call Lone Star. Of course, if the player is a munchkin (not saying you are in this case), they probably won't care much about the Cha penalty anyway.

[Capt. Dave]

[Herald of Verjig...]

To be fair, the closest I've seen is a wheeled gnome who didn't make it to a second game.

[Mortax]

[PBTHHHHT]

Uh, so what about a giant PC who wants to play a shark shifter? Might as well make him a Megaladon in his animal form? :-P

[Apathy]

[PBTHHHHT]

booo hisss! rather boring.

Ah well, I'll dream of a genetically altered mutant toxic shifter megalodon!!! :biggrin: