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Mortax
Okay, so if this has been asked before, or someone has rules for it, please post a link. smile.gif

I was watching sharkweek on discoverychannel, and got an idea for a fun char/npc. A shark shape-shifter. Yes, I know the obviouse problem of poof natural form! Flop, flop. Flop, flop. Here are the stats I came up with:

Human form:
Strength: +2
Body: +4
Quickness: +0
Intellegence: +0
Willpower: -1
Charisma: +0
Reaction: +0
Init: +0
Attack: (Str) M


Shark form:
Strength: +7
Body: +8 /2
Quickness: +2 *3 swimming
Intellegence: +0
Willpower: -1
Charisma: +0
Reaction: +2 (in water)
Init: R+2d6 (in water)
Attack: (Str+2) D

Flaws: Mild allergy water pollutents, Combat Monster
Merits: Nictitating membrains (both forms), Immunity: Cancer


I'm basing this off of the stats given for a large shark in Critters. I'm assuming by large shark they mean tiger shark, and small shark they mean a nurse shark. (Size wise.)

Large Shark:
Strength: 10
Body: 10/2
Quickness: 5 *3 swimming
Intellegence: 2/3
Willpower: 2
Charisma: 0
Reaction: 5
Init: 2d6+5
Attack:12 D

What do you all think of these as stats?

Next question, would you let a player play one?
Our group plays sort of a shadowrun 2.6 smile.gif so we still have a few old rules, like shifters only regen in animal form. (this could be justified by low mana levels I guess. We are still in the early fifties in our current campain.) This takes away a major bonuse, but still. Of course, can't go to shark form on most runs. "Hahaha! I flop in your general direction!"

Opinions? Thought?
Herald of Verjigorm
The sum bonuses should not exceed that of the most benefitted shifter currently in the books.
When hypothesizing alternate shifters, I would usually start from something that's present (seal would be closest here) and just shuffle numbers with the math that any mental bonus or penalty is equal to twice as much of a change to any of the 6 physical attributes.

Seal:
B: +1/+2
S: +1/+1
Q: 0/+1
W: 0
I: 0
C: +1
R: 0/+1+1D6

The additional flaws and edges seem fair enough, so no number change on that.
Treat the shark form attack as reach -1, and I won't even have a problem with it at Str+2D physical.

As for attributes, the seal has an effective +8 in normal attributes. With the -1 to willpower you list, that becomes a +10.

So, not so large shark:
B: +2/+4
S: +1/+2
Q: +0/+1
W: -1
I: 0
C: 0
R: 0/+1+1d6
Attack: Str M Stun / Str+2 D (-1 reach)
Shuffle as you see fit. If someone plays this in a mostly land-based game, either lower the cost or let them suffer from the choice.
Shadow
Don't shifters revert if they go unconscious?
Mortax
smile.gif Yet another reason shark shifter would not be unballenced. smile.gif
Req
umm, Sharks Don't Get Cancer is kinda the worst fringe science around. smile.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
There is no mention of forced shifting in Critters or the SR3 Companion that I could find skimming through. It is only listed as an intentional complex action.
Talia Invierno
And sharks should have a bonus to CH in their natural form. I mean, look at this thread, and you only saw a show on them ...
Mortax
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
The sum bonuses should not exceed that of the most benefitted shifter currently in the books.
When hypothesizing alternate shifters, I would usually start from something that's present (seal would be closest here) and just shuffle numbers with the math that any mental bonus or penalty is equal to twice as much of a change to any of the 6 physical attributes.

Seal:
B: +1/+2
S: +1/+1
Q: 0/+1
W: 0
I: 0
C: +1
R: 0/+1+1D6

The additional flaws and edges seem fair enough, so no number change on that.
Treat the shark form attack as reach -1, and I won't even have a problem with it at Str+2D physical.

As for attributes, the seal has an effective +8 in normal attributes. With the -1 to willpower you list, that becomes a +10.

So, not so large shark:
B: +2/+4
S: +1/+2
Q: +0/+1
W: -1
I: 0
C: 0
R: 0/+1+1d6
Attack: Str M Stun / Str+2 D (-1 reach)
Shuffle as you see fit. If someone plays this in a mostly land-based game, either lower the cost or let them suffer from the choice.

Good points. Although, looking at my notes I think I originally gave them a minus to intellegence and a - 2 to willpower. Was also thinking about giving the compulsion: see blood go psycotic without willpower check. As far as the reach modifier, I can see both sides. A fiften foot long animal has some major reach, but it is still a bite. There is a megaladon in one of the books, paranormal animals of NA, I think. If someone could look up its reach?
Herald of Verjigorm
The stats given in Awakened Lands for megaladons do not mention reach, so it is 0.
I have a personal dislike of forced behaviour without even a test. Even including combat monster as a natural flaw for the para-species is pushing it for me, but if your gaming table approves, I won't tell you not to.
Mortax
I wasn't exactly thinking combat monster, more the flaw thatshark shamans have.
QUOTE
compulsion: see blood go psycotic without willpower check
What I ment by this was if you fail the check. Sorry, worded that wrong. smile.gif
Wireknight
Remember that whatever their form, a shifter retains the same mind and essence. Given that, I would not associate mental attribute modifiers with the shapeshift. As far as the physical modifiers, they're supposed to transform into a larger and more powerful version of the base critter. I'd take the physical attributes of a shark (if they exist; SR's always been a bit lax on statistics and abilities for un-Awakened critters) and subtract 2, and make those the modifiers to one's statistics in shark form. Reduce those modifiers by any modifiers that are present in metahuman form, of course, or they'll otherwise effectively get two beneficial modifiers.

And if the statistics are too high, and in order to balance it you'd have to make shark shapeshifters transform into critters that are pathetically weak compared to the average non-shifter members of their species, then I'd consider scrapping the idea. It wouldn't make sense in-game, even if it was a result of rules-level balancing, for a shifter's critter form to be inferior to a normal critter of that type.

As far as their blood frenzy goes, I'd just base it off the Fenrir Shaman's power, but possibly make it occur when anyone (who bleeds; spirits and the like probably need not apply) takes injuries in the fight, not just the shifter.
Herald of Verjigorm
Wireknight, you haven't ever read the rules for shifters in the SR3 Companion have you?

They buy up 9 attributes (animal physical, human physical and mental) and get a variety of modifiers to any or all of those 9 attributes based on their species. Also, why not use the shark totem's frenzy as a base for a shark shifter? It seems like a better place to start than a fenrir totem effect.
Mortax
Yes, I think I remember wolf shifters getting a +1 to charisma.

Wirenight, I did something similar to what you sudjest for getting the stats. The stats of a shark are in critters. somewhere around page 20.
Wireknight
I've read the rules quite thoroughly. I didn't immediately assume that he was intending on creating only a player-character version of the aforementioned shifter, hence my advice on determining the modifiers for shark form (which may be easily extrapolated into the SR3 Companion's rules, which I feel are overly complicated and underpowered; a player in my group once attempted to make a shapeshifter using those rules, and would have had to start off with very poor attributes in all forms in order to have a passably decent number of skills).

And I am fairly certain that under no circumstances should a shifter's mental attributes change from one form to another. This may not be the case in SR4 (with the intution split; intuition increases are a good way to reflect the sharpened senses of some critters), but it is the case in SR3.
Herald of Verjigorm
Ok, the real question: What in anything that was stated gave you the impression that anyone was providing mental stats that were dependant on the form?

Unless that part was a response to Talia's single intrusion that was most likely meant as comedy.

Side note: I agree that the current rules for shifters make them normally about as potent as a wheeled toaster. The one time I thought shifters were overpowered was from remembering that they had rules in the Companion, but not having those rules. The end result bought up human stats normally, and got base physical stats for the animal type free (with the option of adding points there).
Wireknight
I actually misread the willpower reduction as existing only in shark form. It was an oversight on my part.

Can I ask why you appear to be attempting to provoke me with snipes against my apparent knowledge of the rules system and understanding of the thread subject matter?
Capt. Dave
Hmm... I have a shapeshifter (fox, full wujen) with 200 Karma and she's a lot better than a wheeled toaster. nyahnyah.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
That last post was because I couldn't find any reference to variable mental stat effects until after I posted. So I edited in the only answer I could find, and apparently it wasn't even the one, instead of completely changing the post in a way that just makes people wonder if someone else had quoted from it before my edit was completed.

The first "snipe" you may be complaining about is in response to a post that displays no apparent understanding of the PC rules for shifters when
QUOTE
Next question, would you let a player play one?
was the main purpose for my answer. Why was it the only sentence in the first post that I directly answered? Because NPC shifters have all their animal physical stats defined as superior to the animal base by one (Q and running multiplier) or two(B and S), so there is no discussion or questioning of attribute accuracy for them.

[edit]Ever seen a wheeled toaster with 200 karma?
Apathy
I'm torn:

On the one hand, I think that shifters get the shaft during char gen. Having to buy both human and animal stats give you so few points to spread around that in order to be viable you got to gimp one form or the other. I've never GM'd for a shifter, but I think if I did I might house rule it that the player just has to assign stats to his human form, and his animal form would be calculated off that base value. Plus, you'd better also pick either mage or adept, so you can get masking - otherwise sooner or later some hunter's going to blow your head off for the bounty.

I also agree that, in most campaigns, water creatures will see limited use, so those really high stats won't come into play very often anyway.

Still, I think that the numbers should at least come close to what the Seal shifter gets, since he's nearly as gimped on land as a big fish (I know, sharks aren't fish...whatever).

My take on it:
B: +2/+6(+2 Impact)
S: +1/+4
Q: +0/+1
W: -1
I: 0
C: -2
R: 0/+1+2d6
Attack: Str M Stun / Str+2 D (-1 reach)
*Must make willpower check to keep from going into frenzy when seeing or smelling blood (in or out of combat). When in frenzy he attacks the nearest creature, friend or foe.
*Enhanced Senses: Smell, Magnetic fields (in shark form)
*Degraded Senses: Sight (in shark form)


My argument for the hit to charisma is that how socially developed could somebody with a shark's mentality be? People respond to them just like they would supposedly respond to trolls: get the hell out of the way and call Lone Star. Of course, if the player is a munchkin (not saying you are in this case), they probably won't care much about the Cha penalty anyway.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Ever seen a wheeled toaster with 200 karma?

Only once, and the carnage it wreaked will haunt my dreams forever...
Herald of Verjigorm
To be fair, the closest I've seen is a wheeled gnome who didn't make it to a second game.
Mortax
QUOTE (Apathy)
Still, I think that the numbers should at least come close to what the Seal shifter gets, since he's nearly as gimped on land as a big fish (I know, sharks aren't fish...whatever).

My take on it:
B: +2/+6(+2 Impact)
S: +1/+4
Q: +0/+1
W: -1
I: 0
C: -2
R: 0/+1+2d6
Attack: Str M Stun / Str+2 D (-1 reach)
*Must make willpower check to keep from going into frenzy when seeing or smelling blood (in or out of combat). When in frenzy he attacks the nearest creature, friend or foe.
*Enhanced Senses: Smell, Magnetic fields (in shark form)
*Degraded Senses: Sight (in shark form)


My argument for the hit to charisma is that how socially developed could somebody with a shark's mentality be? People respond to them just like they would supposedly respond to trolls: get the hell out of the way and call Lone Star. Of course, if the player is a munchkin (not saying you are in this case), they probably won't care much about the Cha penalty anyway.

Um, sharks are fish. BIG fish, but fish none the less.

I think I like you're stats for this best so far, but for one thing. I managed to find my critters e-copy, and none of the sharks have a reach modifier. other than that, I think these are the stats I'll bring up. Can you imagine a sharkshifter shark shaman? hmmm......NPC... Bwahahaha! vegm.gif
PBTHHHHT
Uh, so what about a giant PC who wants to play a shark shifter? Might as well make him a Megaladon in his animal form? nyahnyah.gif
Apathy
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jul 20 2005, 11:35 AM)
Uh, so what about a giant PC who wants to play a shark shifter?  Might as well make him a Megaladon in his animal form?  nyahnyah.gif

Canon char gen rules state that physical stats for the human and animal forms have to be paid for separately. So in all likelihood shark's stats would be even lower because giant's blew 15 points getting a metavarient species.

Also, I think by canon shifters are always human.

If you house ruled it (like I probably would), that you could buy a metahuman form in place of a human one, and that your animal form stats just use your human stats plus the modifiers, you could choose to use the giant's base stats (before modifiers for giant metatype).

Even if choose to house rule it that the animal form stats are derived from the giant's modified stats, you probably won't have that large a shark, because the points you blew on getting the metatype aren't available to spend on attributes or skills.

Factoring in that you've still got to spend points on skills, lifestyle, gear, mental attributes, etc, you've probable only got 60-61 points to spend on being a shifter and on your physical attributes (assuming 123 bps total).

Human (0 points)
Shark shifter (25points)
- can spend 36 points on phy atts (Str 6, Bod 6, and Qck 6)

Troll (10 points)
Shark shifter (25 points)
- additionally gets -2Int, -2Cha that you have to compensate for (8 bps)
- can spend 18 points on phy atts (Str 2+4=6, Bod 1+5=6, and Qck 6-1=5)

Giant (15 points)
Shark shifter (25 points)
- additionally gets -2Int, -2Cha that you have to compensate for (8 bps)
- can spend 13 points (round up to 14) on phy atts (Str 1+5=6, Bod 1+5=6, and Qck 5-1=4)

Not much difference any way you slice it...
PBTHHHHT
booo hisss! rather boring.

Ah well, I'll dream of a genetically altered mutant toxic shifter megalodon!!! biggrin.gif
mattness pl
CLICK!
Mortax
QUOTE
It's shark week on discovery

In poland it'll be on weekend biggrin.gif
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