 Is it just me or do PC shifter get the shaft? |
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 Jul 20 2005, 01:24 AM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
Let's look at how much they costs, using the point buy system.
They are listed as costing 25 points, not a lot? Well let's look at a mundane one.Staring off they have to buy 9 stats. Let's sa they are being really corny and only put one point into three of them. That is another 6 points you have to pay. They then have the following flaws duel natured, unendeucated, bio-rejection, allery severe, hung out to dry... That winds up to be a good old about 55-57 points. For a slightly better meta human who can regen.... Awaked ones only pay about 48-50 points. So really why so many points? |
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Jul 20 2005, 01:41 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
If "the shaft" in question is pure silver, then I agree.
However, they are better off than ghouls. The first half-fix I support is dividing free knowledge and language skills into two categories: civilized and feral. They get just as much civilized knowledge and language as indicated in the Companion, but get the rest of what they would've had as humans to set aside for things animals really should be able to learn in the wild. For the vast majority of species, this also includes a language to communicate with others of the species and of a few related species. |
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Jul 20 2005, 01:50 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Hey, regeneration is nothing to scoff at. Imagine, if you will, a magic-using shapeshifter. All he or she has to do is cast a spell at too high a force and instantly regenerate the physical drain. After a deadly wound, there's a 5 out of 6 chance that everything will be peachy in just a few moments. (Barring immolation or being misted by a frag grenade) |
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Jul 20 2005, 01:55 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Interestingly, conjuring drain can heal instantly by that line. |
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Jul 20 2005, 01:59 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
So that would mean that a Fox shifter (Charisma 8 ) can summon force 12 spirits, take a serious physical wound, and be completely recovered the next combat round? or, worst case scenario, if you treat it like regen from drain, they'd be peachy 6 minutes later? |
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Jul 20 2005, 02:22 AM
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#6
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Somewhere, and I think its in the eratta, they cant heal physical drain damage via regeneration.
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Jul 20 2005, 02:30 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
It's just you. Shapeshifters do not get the shaft.
Shapeshifters start off the weakest, but can become the most powerful over time. It's a matter of game balance. Because they can become so powerful, they have to start off the weakest, and require a ton of Karma to improve. But once they improve... watch out. Remember they are NOT humans who can change into animals, but are ANIMALS that can take human form - at heart, they are still an animal. With the investment of Karma earned in game, they can become much more powerful than other metaraces. |
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Jul 20 2005, 03:15 AM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
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Jul 20 2005, 03:50 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Shifters are so powerful, they're broke. You're talking about a creature with regeneration and built-in initiative dice.
The fox makes the singularly most broken-arsed mage in the game. It has a built in +2 charisma, +1 intelligence, and +1 willpower. +1 quickness, +1 reaction and +1d6 dice in fox form, x4 (x5?) running multiplier. It's fast, it can summon high level spirits or can cast high level spells with little drain; add masking plus a few levels of initiation, and the whole dual-natured thing becomes *far* less of a big deal. Get invoking and channelling, and you can easily see situations where you're sucking in HIGH force spirits... gaah, yes they get the shaft -- they have to be, because they're too powerful even WITH the shaft. |
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Jul 20 2005, 04:29 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 571 Joined: 9-January 05 From: In the 9th circle of hell Member No.: 6,950 |
Hmmm, I've read this somewhere before too. Actually, it was a line something along the line of "you can't regen drain of any kind." I'll look once I get back to my apartment and my books. :-) hehehe, Physmage shifter, anyone? Sucks to start, but after a while.......shudder. The do sort of get the shaft, but i is for balance, otherwise they would be way to strong way too fast. If they only regend in animal form, THAT would be the shaft. But they changed that in 3rd. |
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Jul 20 2005, 05:07 AM
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#11
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Except that they have the exact same odds of actually summoning that spirit as a comparable metahuman. An elf with maxed-out Charisma also gets 8 dice to soak conjuring drain with. As for spells, you can't start with a spell above force 6 anyway. Even assuming you can regen drain (which, IIRC, you can't), it would do you no good since your magic will be 6-- and your essence will be 8. You'd have to lose a ton of essence for that to make a difference...and since shifters can't take cyber, that pretty much leaves drug addiction.
Wouldn't work. By the book, adept abilites are only good in human form. Since they only regen in animal form, you lose the benefit of it. |
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Jul 20 2005, 05:20 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
No such limit is listed in 3rd edition. |
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Jul 20 2005, 05:28 AM
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#13
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
In SR3, Shapeshifters regen in both forms.
Physical Drain regens at 1 box per minute. Stun Drain regens like all other stun damage. SRComp page 36. Shapeshifter adepts tend to be highly specialized fighters. Gun adepts work well. They can pretty much shoot down anything with little worry of death. Improved melee skills can be useful, as well. However, Shapeshifters generally want to avoid melee combat when at all possible. The reason is their vulnerability to Weapon Foci. Quick, roll Essence vs TN 12 or die!. The Shapeshifter who takes a deadly wound from a weapon focus is only slightly more fraged than the metahuman who takes the same wound but overflow can make a big difference for the metahuman if he is lucky. |
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Jul 20 2005, 06:39 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
They get up to 8 charisma. That's equal to an elf. Toss in +1 willpower and +1 intelligence; snag bonus attribute (willpower), you end up with a 7 intelligence, 8 willpower, and 7 spell pool. So basically, you start out with CHA 8, INT 7, WILL 8. If you're willing to pay for it, you can get exceptional attributes for any or all of those three, or even snag an albino condition for the +1 willpower. An elf doesn't get all that. Further, fox shape shifters have a advantage in summoning great form spirits -- uber-high essence WITH high willpower. By the odds, with Conjuring 6, you're going to get a force 8 great form every 12 times or so. Step 1: Summon great form level 8. Take two moderate physical wounds. Step 2: Cast resist pain. Step 3: Cast treat versus TN (10-Essence)=2. Heal all that physical damage. Take no drain, because you have really high willpower. Split your spellpool between the two, and it's immensely low probability of failing to get enough successes on either roll. Step 4: 51 seconds elapsed. Repeat. On average, you're going to be able to snag one every, I dunno, 8 minutes or so. Not all that useful in combat, but if you have the time to prep for a run, spend say, an hour and waltz into combat with 8 or so great form spirits on your side... An elf can't do that; their willpower and essence aren't high enough to manage step 3 with any reliability. Plus, that 8 willpower really does come in handy for resisting drain on in-combat spells. With the appropriate manipulation of numbers, you can be casting fairly high force deadly-level stunballs at will. Mmm, tasty. Let's also not forget that a truly dirty fox shaman would also make sure to have a 7 quickness in this case -- for a reaction of 8 in fox form -- and carry around a nifty sustaining focus with increased reflexes, +3 or a customized +4 initiative dice spell (self-only, same drain), for an 8 reaction +4/5 initiative dice. Uber-fast, rivals wired reflexes 3 for speed. |
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Jul 20 2005, 04:33 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
How many points do you guys spend to come up with these characters?
25 points for a shifter + 30 points for a mage = 55. 123 - 55 = 68 Giving the human form 2's for physical stats takes another 12, leaving 56. 56 points for 6 stats and skills. Yea, real Uber. |
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Jul 20 2005, 04:40 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 29 Joined: 8-February 05 Member No.: 7,066 |
This is found further down in the main FAQ.
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Jul 20 2005, 04:57 PM
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#17
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You can't do that. You *definitely* cannot use Heal/Treat to heal Drain damage. Sorry.
With the appropriate manipulation of numbers, I can do that as an unspecialized human.
You can't do that. Not only do you not start with enough Resources to afford a sustaining focus, but the Improved Reflexes spell doesn't stack with other bonuses, such as an adept's powers. It sounds nice, but it actually doesn't work out. |
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Jul 20 2005, 06:11 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Where is that stated? I could be wrong, but the closest reference I've ever seen is that *stun* damage cannot be healed by magic. The heal/treat spells do not say that they do not work on physical damage caused by drain. It's not in the Errata or FAQ, as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong, I'd like to see a reference. I like to know for sure when I go tell other people you can't do that ;)
Depends on interpretation. It's incompatible with cyberware for sure; it's incompatible with things that are not standard for the species in question, for sure. Keep in mind that these are animals that can take human form, and as such, the animal form is their true form. That +1d6 initiative is not a bonus. It's the shape-shifter's natural state. When you create an elf, and allocate charisma and all is said and done, do you say that the elf has a charisma of three, or 1(3)? Is a trolls' strength 10, or 6(10)? Shapeshifters in animal form don't have initiative of 1(2), they have an initiative of 2. It's not a "bonus" or an "increase", it's their natural state of being. If you want to include the shape shifter's built in higher initiative, just ask yourself -- what do I do when a night one with +2 quickness bonus (and thus +1 reaction) wants to use the spell? And cmon. Getting the :nuyen: 15k for a sustaining focus is trivial. That's three runs at most, or just jack a car or something :P |
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Jul 20 2005, 08:18 PM
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#19
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
P162, BBB, bottom of the section on Drain. Not, of course, in the description of the Heal/Treat spells or somewhere else useful. :wobble:
The same is true of Adept abilites, which are considered "natural" for all game purposes. At any event, the exact wording of the Increase Reflexes spell makes it clear that it's not compatible with anything else that boosts initiative dice; it even specifically mentions Adepts. So, the spell is incompatible with both "natural" and "unnatural" initiative boosts. |
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Jul 20 2005, 08:25 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Just because you can do interesting things with Shifter casters doesn't mean they're not gimped in general - having a race that's only effective as one archetype after you sink a ton of Karma into it, is not my idea of balanced.
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Jul 20 2005, 09:51 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It may be more accurate to say that they're not balanced, rather than that they're gimped—they range from quite weak to overpowering, with not much in terms of middle ground.
~J |
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Jul 21 2005, 01:22 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Well, I'll be. I hate these books sometimes, they never have all the rules in one place; the subject will be spread across 6-8 locations in each book :/ Ok, so heal one box every six minutes. Still looking at c. 1 great form every hour, if you accept the one box of physical drain per minute. (Every half-hour, if you use a medkit, which afaik will work.) In either case, compare the difference between a shape shifter and a non-shape-shifter -- a shape shifter can expect to snag roughly 1 force 8 per (half) hour, where it takes a non-shapeshifter roughly what, one every 6 hours? A shape shifter still has a huge advantage on this count, although admittedly not as much as I expected.
Well, FWIW, I'll still disagree on this one. The adept power is patently an increase that is magical in nature; a regular human does not have 4d6 initiative. The wording of the Increase Reflexes spell really says it "is not compatible with any other type of increase to a subject's Initiative dice, including the adept power of Improved Reflexes." If you take a look at Critters, a normal fox naturally has Reaction+2d6 initiative dice. A wolf has Reaction+2d6. A leopard has Reaction+3d6. These are not boosts to initiative dice; they are not increases. They are the *natural* speed at which these creatures take action. Basically, what you're arguing is that *anything* above 1d6 initiative dice counts as an increase, and I just don't see that as justified. It's just not an "increase" if it's standard for the species. Again, it could be a case of me running into rules-in-20-different-places, but still... :) |
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Jul 21 2005, 05:56 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
A shapeshifter's biggest advantage is regeneration. Now, I don't have the Comet book myself, but isn't regeneration one of the SURGE abilities that you can buy? How does that compare, cost-wise, to playing a shapeshifter?
Shapeshifters can be powerful eventually, but they are certainly not a powergamer's choice. They can't get cyber, so a mundane 'shifter tends to get beaten up by sammies with super-human Attributes or adepts with increased ability dice. Regeneration is nice, but I'd rather be able to dish out a beating, than to take one. Adepts shifters suffer from having 9 Attributes to split things among, and their powers only work in human form. The fox shapeshifter is the best of the lot, as a mage or shaman - comparable to the low-resources elven version. The fox shapeshifter will have slightly better than the elf's already impressive mental Attributes (Spell Pool of 7, Astral Combat Pool of 11 - good stuff), but will have wimpier physical Attributes. This is the biggest Achilles heel of any awakened shapeshifter - sure, they can heal a Deadly wound instantly, but they still have to check for Magic Loss. The fox shapeshifter will also suffer on skills, likely having a bare-bones configuration, while the elf can either get more well-rounded skills or higher Resources. |
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Jul 21 2005, 11:47 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
AFAIK, you can't get regeneration as a SURGE ability. It's certainly not in YOC.
Shapeshifter's *adept* powers only work in human form. They can summon and cast spells in animal form if they're capable at all. I do agree that a major issue shifters have is their propensity to take damage; even if they have a high body (ie, are a tiger or bear), they can't wear any armor in animal form, so they're not likely to do much staging even with 8 or 9 body dice. (... unless you seek out a contact which can make a custom set of armor that won't get torn to shreds during the shift, but that requires an inordinately friendly GM) I will say that this is a pretty simple problem to solve in the majority of cases; a good old invisibility spell and/or a high force spirit using confusion work wonders in this regard. They'll be firing against TNs in the 6-12 range, and you'll be dodging with your standard 4. :) I do agree that mundane shapeshifters are pretty much worthless. The sole exception is the tiger shifter -- with 3d6 initiative, +3 body, +2 quickness, +3 strength, and a +1 reach (STR+1)S melee attack... well, that's pretty close to a melee sammy, with the glaring exception of the armor issue. |
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Jul 21 2005, 03:39 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I've found the Wolf shifter playable, just not power-gamer-able. As a wolf is actually a social animal, and a natural team player it's much more useful on a team than any of the others. If played right, a Tiger can't really be part of a team, 'cause it's counter to their instincts. Same with a bear. They're just not team players.
Anyway, a wolf shifter get's roughly 6 points of phys-ad powers, plus regen. So without being magic, they're pretty useful. Astral Vision = 2 Killing hands M = 1 Low light vision = .25 Improved Scent = .25 Hi freq hearing = .25 Improved Hearing = .25 Improved Init 1 = 2 7 points of improved stats, somewhat make up for having 9 stats. |
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