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Cynic project
Let's look at how much they costs, using the point buy system.

They are listed as costing 25 points, not a lot? Well let's look at a mundane one.Staring off they have to buy 9 stats. Let's sa they are being really corny and only put one point into three of them. That is another 6 points you have to pay. They then have the following flaws duel natured, unendeucated, bio-rejection, allery severe, hung out to dry... That winds up to be a good old about 55-57 points. For a slightly better meta human who can regen....

Awaked ones only pay about 48-50 points.

So really why so many points?
Herald of Verjigorm
If "the shaft" in question is pure silver, then I agree.

However, they are better off than ghouls.

The first half-fix I support is dividing free knowledge and language skills into two categories: civilized and feral. They get just as much civilized knowledge and language as indicated in the Companion, but get the rest of what they would've had as humans to set aside for things animals really should be able to learn in the wild. For the vast majority of species, this also includes a language to communicate with others of the species and of a few related species.
Smiley
QUOTE (Cynic project)
For a slightly better meta human who can regen....

Hey, regeneration is nothing to scoff at. Imagine, if you will, a magic-using shapeshifter. All he or she has to do is cast a spell at too high a force and instantly regenerate the physical drain. After a deadly wound, there's a 5 out of 6 chance that everything will be peachy in just a few moments. (Barring immolation or being misted by a frag grenade)
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Companion p. 36)
Additionally, shapeshifter magicians regenerate the Physical damage caused by spellcasting Drain at a rate of 1 Damage box per minute.

Interestingly, conjuring drain can heal instantly by that line.
Apathy
QUOTE
Interestingly, conjuring drain can heal instantly by that line.

So that would mean that a Fox shifter (Charisma 8 ) can summon force 12 spirits, take a serious physical wound, and be completely recovered the next combat round?

or, worst case scenario, if you treat it like regen from drain, they'd be peachy 6 minutes later?
Lindt
Somewhere, and I think its in the eratta, they cant heal physical drain damage via regeneration.
ShadowGhost
It's just you. Shapeshifters do not get the shaft.

Shapeshifters start off the weakest, but can become the most powerful over time.

It's a matter of game balance. Because they can become so powerful, they have to start off the weakest, and require a ton of Karma to improve. But once they improve... watch out.

Remember they are NOT humans who can change into animals, but are ANIMALS that can take human form - at heart, they are still an animal.

With the investment of Karma earned in game, they can become much more powerful than other metaraces.

Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Lindt)
Somewhere, and I think its in the eratta, they cant heal physical drain damage via regeneration.
Vaevictis
Shifters are so powerful, they're broke. You're talking about a creature with regeneration and built-in initiative dice.

The fox makes the singularly most broken-arsed mage in the game. It has a built in +2 charisma, +1 intelligence, and +1 willpower. +1 quickness, +1 reaction and +1d6 dice in fox form, x4 (x5?) running multiplier.

It's fast, it can summon high level spirits or can cast high level spells with little drain; add masking plus a few levels of initiation, and the whole dual-natured thing becomes *far* less of a big deal. Get invoking and channelling, and you can easily see situations where you're sucking in HIGH force spirits...

gaah, yes they get the shaft -- they have to be, because they're too powerful even WITH the shaft.
Mortax
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Lindt)
Somewhere, and I think its in the eratta, they cant heal physical drain damage via regeneration.

Hmmm, I've read this somewhere before too. Actually, it was a line something along the line of "you can't regen drain of any kind." I'll look once I get back to my apartment and my books. smile.gif

hehehe, Physmage shifter, anyone?

Sucks to start, but after a while.......shudder.

The do sort of get the shaft, but i is for balance, otherwise they would be way to strong way too fast. If they only regend in animal form, THAT would be the shaft. But they changed that in 3rd.
Cain
QUOTE
It's fast, it can summon high level spirits or can cast high level spells with little drain; add masking plus a few levels of initiation, and the whole dual-natured thing becomes *far* less of a big deal. Get invoking and channelling, and you can easily see situations where you're sucking in HIGH force spirits...

Except that they have the exact same odds of actually summoning that spirit as a comparable metahuman. An elf with maxed-out Charisma also gets 8 dice to soak conjuring drain with.

As for spells, you can't start with a spell above force 6 anyway. Even assuming you can regen drain (which, IIRC, you can't), it would do you no good since your magic will be 6-- and your essence will be 8. You'd have to lose a ton of essence for that to make a difference...and since shifters can't take cyber, that pretty much leaves drug addiction.

QUOTE
hehehe, Physmage shifter, anyone?

Wouldn't work. By the book, adept abilites are only good in human form. Since they only regen in animal form, you lose the benefit of it.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Cain)
Since they only regen in animal form, you lose the benefit of it.

No such limit is listed in 3rd edition.
hyzmarca
In SR3, Shapeshifters regen in both forms.

Physical Drain regens at 1 box per minute. Stun Drain regens like all other stun damage.

SRComp page 36.

Shapeshifter adepts tend to be highly specialized fighters. Gun adepts work well. They can pretty much shoot down anything with little worry of death. Improved melee skills can be useful, as well. However, Shapeshifters generally want to avoid melee combat when at all possible. The reason is their vulnerability to Weapon Foci.

Quick, roll Essence vs TN 12 or die!.

The Shapeshifter who takes a deadly wound from a weapon focus is only slightly more fraged than the metahuman who takes the same wound but overflow can make a big difference for the metahuman if he is lucky.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Cain)
Except that they have the exact same odds of actually summoning that spirit as a comparable metahuman.  An elf with maxed-out Charisma also gets 8 dice to soak conjuring drain with.


They get up to 8 charisma. That's equal to an elf. Toss in +1 willpower and +1 intelligence; snag bonus attribute (willpower), you end up with a 7 intelligence, 8 willpower, and 7 spell pool.

So basically, you start out with CHA 8, INT 7, WILL 8.

If you're willing to pay for it, you can get exceptional attributes for any or all of those three, or even snag an albino condition for the +1 willpower.

An elf doesn't get all that. Further, fox shape shifters have a advantage in summoning great form spirits -- uber-high essence WITH high willpower. By the odds, with Conjuring 6, you're going to get a force 8 great form every 12 times or so.

Step 1: Summon great form level 8. Take two moderate physical wounds.
Step 2: Cast resist pain.
Step 3: Cast treat versus TN (10-Essence)=2. Heal all that physical damage. Take no drain, because you have really high willpower. Split your spellpool between the two, and it's immensely low probability of failing to get enough successes on either roll.
Step 4: 51 seconds elapsed. Repeat.

On average, you're going to be able to snag one every, I dunno, 8 minutes or so. Not all that useful in combat, but if you have the time to prep for a run, spend say, an hour and waltz into combat with 8 or so great form spirits on your side...

An elf can't do that; their willpower and essence aren't high enough to manage step 3 with any reliability.

Plus, that 8 willpower really does come in handy for resisting drain on in-combat spells. With the appropriate manipulation of numbers, you can be casting fairly high force deadly-level stunballs at will. Mmm, tasty.

Let's also not forget that a truly dirty fox shaman would also make sure to have a 7 quickness in this case -- for a reaction of 8 in fox form -- and carry around a nifty sustaining focus with increased reflexes, +3 or a customized +4 initiative dice spell (self-only, same drain), for an 8 reaction +4/5 initiative dice. Uber-fast, rivals wired reflexes 3 for speed.
Bearclaw
How many points do you guys spend to come up with these characters?
25 points for a shifter + 30 points for a mage = 55. 123 - 55 = 68
Giving the human form 2's for physical stats takes another 12, leaving 56.

56 points for 6 stats and skills.
Yea, real Uber.
Juggernaut125
This is found further down in the main FAQ.

QUOTE
Does the Regeneration power of shapeshifters and other critters work against Stun damage? Do shapeshifters heal more quickly? Why do Deadly wounds evaporate with Regeneration, but near-deadly wounds take long periods to heal?
No, Regeneration does not work on Stun damage.
It does, however, make sense that shapeshifters and other regenerating creatures should heal more quickly. And it also fits that Regeneration should affect any damage, not only if it's Deadly or not. So we suggest this optional rule for Regeneration:
Each time a regenerating creature takes damage (Physical or Stun), roll 1D6. On any result other than 1 (or 1 or 2 in the case of damage caused by fire or other massive trauma/tissue damage), that damage will regenerate. Physical damage regenerates at the rate of 1 box per Combat Turn. Stun damage regenerates at the rate of 1 box per minute. Regenerated damage disappears at the end of the Combat Turn. Only one wound can be regenerated at a time, though Physical wounds heal before Stun (so a shapeshifter who takes 3 boxes of Physical and then a box of Stun must wait for the Physical damage to heal before the Stun heals).Damage from Drain cannot be regenerated. Damage that does not regenerate heals at normal speeds.
Cain
QUOTE
Step 1: Summon great form level 8. Take two moderate physical wounds.
Step 2: Cast resist pain.
Step 3: Cast treat versus TN (10-Essence)=2. Heal all that physical damage. Take no drain, because you have really high willpower. Split your spellpool between the two, and it's immensely low probability of failing to get enough successes on either roll.
Step 4: 51 seconds elapsed. Repeat.

You can't do that. You *definitely* cannot use Heal/Treat to heal Drain damage. Sorry.

QUOTE
Plus, that 8 willpower really does come in handy for resisting drain on in-combat spells. With the appropriate manipulation of numbers, you can be casting fairly high force deadly-level stunballs at will. Mmm, tasty.

With the appropriate manipulation of numbers, I can do that as an unspecialized human.

QUOTE
Let's also not forget that a truly dirty fox shaman would also make sure to have a 7 quickness in this case -- for a reaction of 8 in fox form -- and carry around a nifty sustaining focus with increased reflexes, +3 or a customized +4 initiative dice spell (self-only, same drain), for an 8 reaction +4/5 initiative dice. Uber-fast, rivals wired reflexes 3 for speed.

You can't do that. Not only do you not start with enough Resources to afford a sustaining focus, but the Improved Reflexes spell doesn't stack with other bonuses, such as an adept's powers. It sounds nice, but it actually doesn't work out.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Cain)

You can't do that.  You *definitely* cannot use Heal/Treat to heal Drain damage.  Sorry.


Where is that stated? I could be wrong, but the closest reference I've ever seen is that *stun* damage cannot be healed by magic. The heal/treat spells do not say that they do not work on physical damage caused by drain. It's not in the Errata or FAQ, as far as I can tell.

If I'm wrong, I'd like to see a reference. I like to know for sure when I go tell other people you can't do that wink.gif

QUOTE (Cain)

You can't do that.  Not only do you not start with enough Resources to afford a sustaining focus, but the Improved Reflexes spell doesn't stack with other bonuses, such as an adept's powers.  It sounds nice, but it actually doesn't work out.


Depends on interpretation. It's incompatible with cyberware for sure; it's incompatible with things that are not standard for the species in question, for sure.

Keep in mind that these are animals that can take human form, and as such, the animal form is their true form. That +1d6 initiative is not a bonus. It's the shape-shifter's natural state. When you create an elf, and allocate charisma and all is said and done, do you say that the elf has a charisma of three, or 1(3)? Is a trolls' strength 10, or 6(10)?

Shapeshifters in animal form don't have initiative of 1(2), they have an initiative of 2. It's not a "bonus" or an "increase", it's their natural state of being.

If you want to include the shape shifter's built in higher initiative, just ask yourself -- what do I do when a night one with +2 quickness bonus (and thus +1 reaction) wants to use the spell?

And cmon. Getting the nuyen.gif 15k for a sustaining focus is trivial. That's three runs at most, or just jack a car or something nyahnyah.gif
Cain
QUOTE
Where is that stated? I could be wrong, but the closest reference I've ever seen is that *stun* damage cannot be healed by magic. The heal/treat spells do not say that they do not work on physical damage caused by drain. It's not in the Errata or FAQ, as far as I can tell.

P162, BBB, bottom of the section on Drain. Not, of course, in the description of the Heal/Treat spells or somewhere else useful. wobble.gif
QUOTE
Physical damage cause by Drain cannot be healed using magic, only be rest and medical attention.

QUOTE
Shapeshifters in animal form don't have initiative of 1(2), they have an initiative of 2. It's not a "bonus" or an "increase", it's their natural state of being.

The same is true of Adept abilites, which are considered "natural" for all game purposes. At any event, the exact wording of the Increase Reflexes spell makes it clear that it's not compatible with anything else that boosts initiative dice; it even specifically mentions Adepts. So, the spell is incompatible with both "natural" and "unnatural" initiative boosts.
mmu1
Just because you can do interesting things with Shifter casters doesn't mean they're not gimped in general - having a race that's only effective as one archetype after you sink a ton of Karma into it, is not my idea of balanced.
Kagetenshi
It may be more accurate to say that they're not balanced, rather than that they're gimped—they range from quite weak to overpowering, with not much in terms of middle ground.

~J
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Cain)

P162, BBB, bottom of the section on Drain.  Not, of course, in the description of the Heal/Treat spells or somewhere else useful.  wobble.gif


Well, I'll be. I hate these books sometimes, they never have all the rules in one place; the subject will be spread across 6-8 locations in each book :/

Ok, so heal one box every six minutes. Still looking at c. 1 great form every hour, if you accept the one box of physical drain per minute. (Every half-hour, if you use a medkit, which afaik will work.)

In either case, compare the difference between a shape shifter and a non-shape-shifter -- a shape shifter can expect to snag roughly 1 force 8 per (half) hour, where it takes a non-shapeshifter roughly what, one every 6 hours?

A shape shifter still has a huge advantage on this count, although admittedly not as much as I expected.

QUOTE (Cain)

The same is true of Adept abilites, which are considered "natural" for all game purposes.  At any event, the exact wording of the Increase Reflexes spell makes it clear that it's not compatible with anything else that boosts initiative dice; it even specifically mentions Adepts.  So, the spell is incompatible with both "natural" and "unnatural" initiative boosts.


Well, FWIW, I'll still disagree on this one. The adept power is patently an increase that is magical in nature; a regular human does not have 4d6 initiative. The wording of the Increase Reflexes spell really says it "is not compatible with any other type of increase to a subject's Initiative dice, including the adept power of Improved Reflexes."

If you take a look at Critters, a normal fox naturally has Reaction+2d6 initiative dice. A wolf has Reaction+2d6. A leopard has Reaction+3d6. These are not boosts to initiative dice; they are not increases. They are the *natural* speed at which these creatures take action.

Basically, what you're arguing is that *anything* above 1d6 initiative dice counts as an increase, and I just don't see that as justified. It's just not an "increase" if it's standard for the species. Again, it could be a case of me running into rules-in-20-different-places, but still... smile.gif
Glyph
A shapeshifter's biggest advantage is regeneration. Now, I don't have the Comet book myself, but isn't regeneration one of the SURGE abilities that you can buy? How does that compare, cost-wise, to playing a shapeshifter?


Shapeshifters can be powerful eventually, but they are certainly not a powergamer's choice.

They can't get cyber, so a mundane 'shifter tends to get beaten up by sammies with super-human Attributes or adepts with increased ability dice. Regeneration is nice, but I'd rather be able to dish out a beating, than to take one.

Adepts shifters suffer from having 9 Attributes to split things among, and their powers only work in human form.

The fox shapeshifter is the best of the lot, as a mage or shaman - comparable to the low-resources elven version. The fox shapeshifter will have slightly better than the elf's already impressive mental Attributes (Spell Pool of 7, Astral Combat Pool of 11 - good stuff), but will have wimpier physical Attributes. This is the biggest Achilles heel of any awakened shapeshifter - sure, they can heal a Deadly wound instantly, but they still have to check for Magic Loss. The fox shapeshifter will also suffer on skills, likely having a bare-bones configuration, while the elf can either get more well-rounded skills or higher Resources.
Vaevictis
AFAIK, you can't get regeneration as a SURGE ability. It's certainly not in YOC.

Shapeshifter's *adept* powers only work in human form. They can summon and cast spells in animal form if they're capable at all.

I do agree that a major issue shifters have is their propensity to take damage; even if they have a high body (ie, are a tiger or bear), they can't wear any armor in animal form, so they're not likely to do much staging even with 8 or 9 body dice. (... unless you seek out a contact which can make a custom set of armor that won't get torn to shreds during the shift, but that requires an inordinately friendly GM)

I will say that this is a pretty simple problem to solve in the majority of cases; a good old invisibility spell and/or a high force spirit using confusion work wonders in this regard. They'll be firing against TNs in the 6-12 range, and you'll be dodging with your standard 4. smile.gif

I do agree that mundane shapeshifters are pretty much worthless. The sole exception is the tiger shifter -- with 3d6 initiative, +3 body, +2 quickness, +3 strength, and a +1 reach (STR+1)S melee attack... well, that's pretty close to a melee sammy, with the glaring exception of the armor issue.
Bearclaw
I've found the Wolf shifter playable, just not power-gamer-able. As a wolf is actually a social animal, and a natural team player it's much more useful on a team than any of the others. If played right, a Tiger can't really be part of a team, 'cause it's counter to their instincts. Same with a bear. They're just not team players.

Anyway, a wolf shifter get's roughly 6 points of phys-ad powers, plus regen. So without being magic, they're pretty useful.
Astral Vision = 2
Killing hands M = 1
Low light vision = .25
Improved Scent = .25
Hi freq hearing = .25
Improved Hearing = .25
Improved Init 1 = 2
7 points of improved stats, somewhat make up for having 9 stats.
Cain
QUOTE
Ok, so heal one box every six minutes. Still looking at c. 1 great form every hour, if you accept the one box of physical drain per minute. (Every half-hour, if you use a medkit, which afaik will work.)

In either case, compare the difference between a shape shifter and a non-shape-shifter -- a shape shifter can expect to snag roughly 1 force 8 per (half) hour, where it takes a non-shapeshifter roughly what, one every 6 hours?

A shape shifter still has a huge advantage on this count, although admittedly not as much as I expected.

Still can't do it. As Juggernaut pointed out, according to the FAQ, Drain damage cannot be regenerated. They get to heal Drain at the normal human rates. And since they count as Awakened, and possibly as non-human, there's going to be some significant Biotech TN penalties to help them heal. If medical attention is required, they're really going to be in for it.

The medkit only works on one injury, and only can lower the damage by one level, at any event. *And* it has the +2 modifier at bare minimum.

QUOTE
Shapeshifter's *adept* powers only work in human form. They can summon and cast spells in animal form if they're capable at all.

That's the annoying thing about Physmages. Magical Power is technically a special Adept power for them. So, they can't use it in animal form. Physmage shifters *really* get shafted, above and beyond what normal physmages or normal shifters would get.
toturi
The FAQ only kicks in if you decide that the wording in the SRComp means that Regeneration only works for Deadly Wounds. If "any other result" means any other damage other than 1(or 1/2) on a Deadly Physical Wound, then the point is moot. (And we've been over this ground before)
BitBasher
Plus that is an example of a completely assheaded FAQ answer, it should be by definition eratta, it doesn't clarify or explain anything, it wholly rewrites sections of rules. If you're gonna eratta something, then do it. I love it when the FAQ contradicts the book.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Cain)
Still can't do it. As Juggernaut pointed out, according to the FAQ, Drain damage cannot be regenerated. They get to heal Drain at the normal human rates.

LOL, that all depends on how you read that asshat FAQ answer. I am/was reading it as follows:

QUOTE

It does, however, make sense that shapeshifters and other regenerating creatures should heal more quickly. And it also fits that Regeneration should affect any damage, not only if it's Deadly or not. So we suggest this optional rule for Regeneration:

"Each time a regenerating creature takes damage (Physical or Stun), roll 1D6. On any result other than 1 (or 1 or 2 in the case of damage caused by fire or other massive trauma/tissue damage), that damage will regenerate. Physical damage regenerates at the rate of 1 box per Combat Turn. Stun damage regenerates at the rate of 1 box per minute.

Regenerated damage disappears at the end of the Combat Turn. Only one wound can be regenerated at a time, though Physical wounds heal before Stun (so a shapeshifter who takes 3 boxes of Physical and then a box of Stun must wait for the Physical damage to heal before the Stun heals).Damage from Drain cannot be regenerated. Damage that does not regenerate heals at normal speeds."


Look at the quotes; in other words, I'm reading the whole bloody thing as optional; this understanding was originally formulated when a friend of mine emailed the responsible party for the FAQ (prior to this posting) and was told that regeneration regenerates BOTH Stun and Physical damage, including drain.

Pfft. They seriously needed a QA writer.
Cain
QUOTE
LOL, that all depends on how you read that asshat FAQ answer.

Not really. Let's look at that section again:
QUOTE
Regenerated damage disappears at the end of the Combat Turn. Only one wound can be regenerated at a time, though Physical wounds heal before Stun (so a shapeshifter who takes 3 boxes of Physical and then a box of Stun must wait for the Physical damage to heal before the Stun heals).Damage from Drain cannot be regenerated. Damage that does not regenerate heals at normal speeds."

Unlike the other sections, that part is rather explicit. Drain cannot be regenerated. Since it also solves the game-balance issues with shifters, it's pretty clear where it needs to go.

QUOTE
Pfft. They seriously needed a QA writer.

No kidding.
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