 Profesionalism, ...or lack thereof... |
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 Aug 6 2005, 05:16 AM
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#101
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
This is misleading—while it's not as bad as I had thought (I forgot stimpatches capped out at rating 6), all the TN mod does is wipe out the smartlink bonus. We're not talking near-incapacitation here. ~J |
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Aug 6 2005, 06:06 PM
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#102
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That asumes that the security guard has a smartlink. It also assumes that the only penalities that the guard will fae are world penalties. A smart runner who likes to use chemicals would mix more than one together. Consider Hyper's secondary effects, for extra fun add a dose of Zen to the mix. Combined with Narcojet the cocktail is non-lethal, causing a maximim of S physical damage. However, it will reliably provide +6 modifiers and hallucinations on top of the wound modifiers. It also assumes that the fluff effects of the wound modifiers won't be significantly alarming to the guard to cause him to get medical attention. The characters don't know how many boxes of damage they have. They just know that they have been injured. If you club to a character serious stun he doesn't know that he only has serious stun. For all he knows his skull is cracked open or his brain is bleeding. The drugged guard doesn't know that the chemicals he was injected with aren't deadly and he doesn't know that they won't interact badly with his blood-pressure medication, either. He just knows that he feels woozy. To have characters act as if they know exactly how many wound boxes they ave is metagaming. It is the most common form of metagaming but it is still metagaming. Characters shouldn't know a stun wound from a physical wound unless it is blatently obvious. Characters shouldn't get shot and think, "it is okay, I only have 5 boxes of damage"; they should think, "there shouldn't be a hole there. This is bad." This goes for both PCs and NPCs. |
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Aug 6 2005, 07:00 PM
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#103
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Neither should they think: "Damn... I probably took a Serious there, I only have 4 wound boxes left before I start dying."
People should underestimate how badly they're hurt fairly often, especially when lots of adrenaline or stimulants are involved. |
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Aug 6 2005, 07:16 PM
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#104
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Unfortunately, it's very difficult to get away from that without resorting to "hidden" health tracks and obfuscating wound penalties. It makes a lot more work for the GM.
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Aug 6 2005, 07:24 PM
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#105
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I actually think having hidden health tracks and not letting the players know how badly their characters are hurt is a horrible idea - I was just pointing out the flipside of Hyzmarca's argument, specifically as applied to enemy NPCs. |
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Aug 6 2005, 07:30 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Oh, don't get me wrong--I don't like the idea either. Unfortunately metagaming is, as you pointed out, the inevitable result of players knowing exactly how many hit poi--er, sorry--boxes their charcters have left on their Condition Monitor. It's probably the lesser of two evils.
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Aug 6 2005, 07:34 PM
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#107
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You don't need hidden health tracks. You just need players who want to roleplay instead of rollplay. It also helps to have a character who decides to sleep off deadly stun without medical treatment to roll 1ds and on a result of 1 he devolps an blood clot and has a stroke in his sleep, resulting in some physical and mental flaws.
mmu1, you are 100% correct. This is very true during combat. Most people who are stabed or shot doen't even know it untill the adrenaline wears off. However, I was responding to Kagetenshi's scenario where a guard is knocked unconscious and is later revived to contrinue the pursuit. In this case, the danger has already passed, th ecombat is over. The wounded character should be assessing his wounds before charging headlong into another battle. After the danger has passed, the adrenalin wears off, and shock begins to set in, wounds often seem worse than they actually are. |
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Aug 6 2005, 08:00 PM
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#108
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I was thinking mainly of the stimpatch scenario, and I stand by what I said in this case - you get 6 (assuming you use the "standard" patch, and there's no real reason for guards to use anything less in a crisis) boxes of stun back - but only for a few minutes, and then you're worse off than you were before. That's not being carefully revived - that's being injected with some heavy-duty and none too gentle stimulants. If anything, I'd expect the guard to be more aggressive than before, and less logical. |
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Aug 6 2005, 09:28 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Er... well, no. Regardless of the player's position on the roleplay/rollplay spectrum, having that kind of knowledge (i.e. Condition Monitor) on a piece of paper in front of you means that it will factor into your planning & playing. It's only a question of how much of a role it plays, which is dictated by one's place on the aforementioned spectrum. |
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Aug 6 2005, 10:33 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Heh, last place I worked, we had a pair of security guards watching the place. They were private contractors; they worked for us by day for benefits and were personal bodguards at night for the money. They were *not* playing around. They were packing, and they were serious. Both were ex-NYC cops, and one was packing a 9mm with laser sight, 15 round clip and hollow point bullets. The other was packing a 9mm with a 15 round clip and black talon bullets. These guys were very simply looking to kill you if they felt they had to fire their gun. As far as shooting intruders is concerned, in Texas, it's completely legal to shoot anyone on your property if you can show cause to feel threatened. A perfect example of this would be that a few years back, a Japanese exchange student was looking for a party on Halloween. He thought he had the right house, he came to the back door and started pounding to try to get in. The owner told him to go away -- the owner couldn't understand him, nor could the student understand the owner, so the student kept pounding, and the owner kept shouting, and eventually, he shot and killed the kid through the door without ever seeing him. No charges (or was he acquitted? either way...) The point is, it varies from state to state. California is fairly anti-gun, so it's very restrictive. Places like Florida and Texas, where they're very pro-gun, are not. |
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Aug 7 2005, 12:01 AM
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#111
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
The version of the story I've ready orginally (this was in '93 or so) is that the guy (who'd supposedly been drinking) didn't bang on the door but entered the wrong house through an open garage, went inside, and surprised a woman who got his husband's '44 revolver and shot him dead. Though I've seen so many garbled versions of this reported over the years. I'm not really sure which one (if any) is true. |
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Aug 7 2005, 12:14 AM
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#112
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
That was an episode of Homocide: Life on the Street, actually. |
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Aug 7 2005, 12:27 AM
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#113
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
This might surprise a lot of people -- I hope it doesn't, but it might: [informative rant] All bullets suck. If you plan on shooting someone, plan on it being because they should die and plan on them, or you, dying. You do not need hollow points for this. You do not need a fifteen round magazine for this. You are not scary solely because you pack name brand ammo. You do not frighten me because you have a pointy laser light on your gun. Guns are scary as is. Giving details about guns is absolutely not required, in order to end a statement with "these guys were very simply looking to kill you if they felt they had to fire their gun" -- for the simple reason that that's why you would ever fire a gun at someone, period/paragraph. The name brand, the extended magazine (though not extended all the way, real super ninja pro's would have the +2 mag extension and one in the pipe), the laser sight, the hollow points, the ooh-spooky black talons -- none of those matter. What matters is the gun, and it pointing at a human being, and the belief that only the presence of the doohickeys makes it clear that their intent would be to kill someone, should they fire. In real life, you don't shoot to wound. Ever. Fifteen rounds or ten, laser sight or not, black talons or hollow points or cheap-ass Wal-Mart ammo. If you put your finger on the trigger, count on someone dying. It's ridiculous to think that only the accessories make it clear that shooting someone is to kill them. [/informative rant] |
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Aug 7 2005, 12:50 AM
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#114
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I hate laser sights. Whenever I see somebody with one I think "Jesus, just use your sights for crying out loud." In the only situation where I could see a laser coming in handy (lowlight), I'd take a set of night sights instead just about any day of the week. A laser can be used to effectively mark something your trying to show somebody (like out on a hill at night or something), but not so good even for that.
Oh no, that would never be me...neeeevverr. |
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Aug 7 2005, 12:50 AM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Regarding the shot-through-the-door incident, I lived in Houston at the time it happened. It was *all* over the news, with the Japanese embassy throwing a fit over the kid's death, and the locals throwing a fit about the fact that the kid shouldn't have been there in the first place. I'm sure it's not the first and only place it happened, but this wasn't an incident I "heard through the grapevine" so to speak. It was on the evening news every day for several weeks.
With respect to the "doohickeys" on the weapons, no kidding you only shoot someone if you intend to kill them (in fact, first thing I was taught was don't even *point* at something you don't intend to kill). The hollow point bullets and talons only increase lethality by what, 3-5%? The point is, these guys were... what I would call "conspicuously packing." The point (from these guys point of view) is to put out the word that you have weapons and that you're not kidding about it, and thereby to hopefully intimidate potential troublemakers into taking their trouble elsewhere. If you're the average gang-banger or robber who doesn't know a whole lot about firearms, which is going to intimidate you more? The security guard with a revolver, or the guy wearing body armor, and carrying a semi-automatic weapon with an extended clip, laser sight and "special bullets?" And my point is that these guys were security guards legally carrying what was *not* legal to buy on the street; in that specific locality, clips bigger than I think 10 (or 12?) bullets were not legal, black talons and hollow points were not legal for your average private citizen, but these guys had them legally. ie, security guards *can* carry firearms (in states other than CA), and on top of that, they often have gear that other private citizens aren't supposed to have. |
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Aug 7 2005, 01:52 AM
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#116
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Security guards in California can carry firearms, and do so quite a bit (it may be more noticeable in Los Angeles only because of how many armed security personnel are in L.A. anyway).
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Aug 7 2005, 03:53 AM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I have a question. How would the average gang-banger or robber KNOW that the security guard had "special bullets"? Do security guards where you come from shout "Stop, or I'll shoot you with Black Talons!"? Or do they have signs that say "Danger: Security carries Black Talons!"? The only way I can see this happening is if they happen to be looking at the business end of a revolver. :eek: As a side note, there is absolutely nothing special about a Black Talon. It is just a hollow point bullet, very similar to most other hollow point ammo on the market. It is not a "cop killer bullet", as it is usually misconstrued to be. Hollow points are LESS likely to penetrate armor. The Black Talon just happens to be a high quality hollow point, but not much different from Gold Dots or XTPs. Just my opinion. One last note from a member of the gun culture... PLEASE stop calling them "extended" magazines, or "high-capacity" magazines. They are "normal capacity" magazines, as that is what the firearm was originally designed to use. The only real exception would be after-market extended magazines, such as some of the 30 rd. Beretta mags that are available. :grr: |
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Aug 7 2005, 04:08 AM
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#118
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
A hollow point bullet is designed to release all its kinetic energy into the target. There are some uses for that:
1) The kinetic energy released cause massive trauma, usually more than that of normal jacketed bullets. A hollow point hitting an arm is more likely to tear off that arm than a normal bullet. However, since the bullet is not designed to penetrate, armour is more effective. This is reflected in SR rules. 2) Less chance of overpenetration, although it has been known to happen. But the chances are less likely. This is not reflected in SR rules. |
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Aug 7 2005, 09:35 AM
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#119
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, calling it a high-cap magazine lets people know you're not talking about the retarded 10 round ones (that were all that was available for purchase legally, period, until about a year and a half ago thanks to the bundle of stupidity that was The Man keeping shooters down) -- and, very specifically, if a Glock has the +2 plug, it is higher capacity than the default 15 round. Just clarifying while we speak. It's not like we're calling them clips, y'know? ;) |
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Aug 7 2005, 10:08 AM
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#120
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
If you're in the neighborhood long enough, and you tell a few people about it every so often, it eventually gets around.
I read some commentary on them stating that the "talons" extend just a bit and have a tendancy to cut nearby flesh when passing through, and that the theory behind them is that there are some wounds where a bullet passes very near to a major blood vessel but just misses it. In some cases, the little bit of extension can apparently make a difference and cut that blood vessel -- so the wound is fatal where it would otherwise not be. (Such cases are admittedly rare, apparently). That aside, even if you assume that there is no real physical benefit to using the Black Talons, consider the media frenzy about them not so long ago. For purposes of intimidation, that's useful. :)
shrug, the way it was explained to me was that they were extended because they were larger than was then legal to buy (even if the firearm was designed for the "extended" magazine). Ask an average person if that qualifies as "extended", and you'll probably find that they think so. Welcome to the wonderful world of language, where common usage prevails over your sub-culture language every time. If you figure out a way to solve this problem, please let the old school hacker sub-culture know, cause they want their word back something fierce. :) |
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Aug 7 2005, 03:42 PM
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#121
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
"Extended" they may not be. "High-capacity" is entirely relative to what is considered normal capacity, which may not vary by gun. As an (exaggerated) example, if I use a shotgun that takes two shells, one in each barrel, I'm going to consider the eight-round magazine on a Franchi SPAS-12 to be high-capacity. The fact that it's the standard SPAS-12 magazine capacity is irrelevant.
~J |
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Aug 7 2005, 05:44 PM
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#122
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Vaevictis, you might want to write in to Snopes about your direct memories of this. (I too remember the incident, but for me it wasn't local.) I'm thinking it was misidentified on the page. The various contributors to the Snopes pages do slip, sometimes -- heck, I've caught them a time or two -- but at least so far I've noticed they are also willing to backtrack and revise if they receive new, more accurate data. |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:10 PM
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#123
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you'd reread the page you linked to, they cite the incident being discussed as fact while discussing an undetermined but completely separate incident.
~J |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:31 PM
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#124
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Last I heard, Houston was not in Louisiana ;)
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Aug 7 2005, 07:40 PM
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#125
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Well then, you heard wrong :P
:oops: ~J |
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