Profesionalism, ...or lack thereof... Options

[nezumi]

[Ryu]

Runners are to company men what consultants are to managers...

The corp will indeed know that any runner loyality is bought. It just expects them to stay bought. Several reasons to use runners spring to mind:

- deniability. Runners getting caught is less dangerous.

- morale. Losing a team member is very demoralizing for outfits who know each other for years - if losses are likely, send runners

- cost. runners cost more on a single mission, but replacing lost company men causes cost for hireing, training, equipment... gets real expensive real fast

- free talent pool. The number of company men is limited. Joe Gunner or one of his siblings are always present, but have little cyber. Maggie Mage is less available, as she also does duty as security mage at xyz facility. Outsourcing all the way!

[Mr. Man]

[Talia Invierno]

Preempting another discussion: we'll assume "trust" in the second definition, according to the American Heritage Dictionary ;)

[mmu1]

[Talia Invierno]

Yes. Freedom.

... and freedom costs.

[mmu1]

[Talia Invierno]

If there's one theme that's rung throughout this thread, it's the freedom to walk from any job, at any time. As a shadowrunner, you have chosen to try to make your living independently of anyone telling you what to do. It's your abilities and your equipment and network of contacts that support that freedom. Since (in the fact of your very existence! your freedom suggests alternate possibilities to others) you threaten the status quo, it's in the system's interest to spin the odds against you at every turn, to not ever give you a single break; and it's in your interest to improve your abilities and equipment and network of contacts so as to make it very difficult for the system to break you.

Outside shadowrunning, that freedom simply doesn't exist.

(Doesn't anyone in this thread watch Firefly? Whedon understands the price of freedom.)

[toturi]

[Talia Invierno]

Wow, sarcasm is a two bladed sword! :grinbig:

[fistandantilus4....]

[wargear]

There's a lot of places you can go with this one. As far as I'm concerned, the key factor in this issue is REP.

No Rep, no trust.

Nameless, faceless Johnson has no rep.
Known Johnson has a rep. Good rep or bad rep is actually irrelevant, he is a known quantity and can be dealt with on that basis.

Your Fixer, by default, has a rep. He cannot function without one.

Green shadowrunners have very little rep, but they have one, otherwise the fixer would never have contacted them.
Shadowrunners, individually and in teams, get reps. Good rep or bad rep only changes the nature of the runs offered to the team. Good teams and runners will get offered more sensitive and thus lucrative runs. Bad teams will get offered more lethal and thus lucrative runs.

[wargear]

As for the bringing guns to the meet issue.

The last team I played in generally preferred to meet the Johnson in upmarket settings, restaurants and cafes. We would send our Face and a single Sam, either a team Sam or a ring-in, into the meet. Our Phys-Ad and Mage would turn up for the meet a half hour early and sit somewhere with a good view of the room. The team Decker would be online to provide additional Intel and oversight for the meet. Any excess Sams and the team Rigger would be nearby, ready for retreival.
Everyone attending the meet would be dressed appropriately to the dress code of the venue. A single firearm, usually a Predator, would be carried by the Sam. The Face would be dressed in the LATEST fashion, and play the role of intermediary.

The Johnson's were generally happy, not removed from their "safe zone", and dealing with another professional, rather than violent criminals in some dingy hell-hole.
We were happy, our Face had a godawfully high Negotiation and generally got us a good price.

In our campaign other professional and wannabe-professional teams began emulating our use of a Face, causing something of a revolution in the shadows. Eventually our Face retired from running, but continued being a professional Face, effectively becomming a Fixer herself.

[wargear]

Hmmm...maybe sleep would be an idea, I appear to be rambling now. :)

On the issue of professionalism.

Why is your runner running?

This is a big issue in most of our games. Low level street scum run to get off the street, sure, but what then?
Too many time I've seen characters run to make enough nuyen to buy a new ubertoy so they can get bigger runs so they can afford bigger ubertoys...ad infinitum.
It's a circular argument that leads to a dead character. They never did leave the streets, they just became the biggest badass on the streets for a while.

A professional has a goal. He has his eyes firmly set on a future when he is not running. Whether that be to have a permanent Luxury lifestyle, or meerly enough to open a bar in his old neighbourhood and retire, he has a goal.

That isn't to say his old buddies can't call him in for one last run later, or that old enemies wont look him up and cause trouble in the future, but such is the fodder of future runs.

[wargear]

Damn, I just can't seem to keep away from this place today.

On the issue of taking guns with you.

You can pretty much take a properly registered and sealed Narcoject™ pistol anywhere.
Likewise for most brands of taser pistol.

Non-lethal weapons are looked on favourably by most authorities.

A number of characters I have played only ever carried non-lethal weapons on most runs. Narcoject pistol instead of Predator, stun baton instead of dikote katana, concussion grenade instead of white phos.

If the run does hose, corporate security or lone star are less likely to summon HTR, and if you do get captured, they wont geek you on the spot. A fine, a slap on the wrist, and a record in their files. Not death.

Professionals don't need to kill, and a team with a rep for non-lethal can go far.

[Kagetenshi]

And the "non-lethal" fallacy raises its head once more…

~J

[wargear]

Yeah, yeah, I know. It's all in how you use it, and an overdose will kill.

Intention and action do carry weight though. The security guy is going to have a very different reaction when his buddy drops with a gaping hole in his chest than he does when he drops with a little dart in his neck.

[Kagetenshi]

Yes, he is. In the second scenario, he's going to slap a stimpatch on the guy and then they're both going to resume trying to kill you. In the first, he might think twice about whether he wants to be there right now.

While non-lethal weapons aren't, that's not the fallacy I was referring to. Link.

~J

[FrostyNSO]

If someone points something at me that looks like a pistol, I'm going to shoot him. If somebody fires something that looks like a pistol at my partner, I won't check to see if it's a dart or a bullet, I will be returning fire.

I will react the same against a guy trying to attack me with a stun baton as I would a guy attacking with a sword.

Maybe the courts will be a little more forgiving, but I assure you the guys out there with guns will not.

[wargear]

I'll pay that. But what it comes down to is simply a difference in running style. As a security guard myself, I know my reaction would be to call in backup. Lethal badguys means HTR, non-lethal means more guards and the cops.

Security guards have to justify the level of response they apply to any situation. If my opponent is not using lethal weapons, it is harder for me to justify a lethal response. If I cannot justify my lethal response it means loss of license, loss of job and gaol time.

[wargear]

[FrostyNSO]

Not entirely true.

You just have to establish reasonable justification.

If a suspect points a pistol-like object at you, it is permissible for you to employ lethal force. You are not expected to wait until he fires it to find out if your life is in danger. If you can establish that you had reasonable belief that your life (or another's life) was in jeopardy, then you are justified.

Now if you have a peaceful demonstrator handcuffed and sitting on the ground and you decide to pepperspray him, that's just hilarious. But seriously, you couldn't justify something like that.

Now if you went to cuff that protestor and he tried to deck you, then you could spray him. If he pulls a knife and comes after you, you can employ lethal force. If he pulls a taser, you can employ lethal force as well. Even if a suspect only comes after you with pepper spray, you are justified since it is meant to incapacitate you. (This would all go to court of course, but it would be reasonable for the security guy in this situation to assume that the suspect is trying to incapacitate him and gain access to his weapon)

[wargear]

[FrostyNSO]

Whether he is coming or going makes no difference once he points that weapon at you. At that point, you are justified.

It doesn't matter if it was replica or not as long as you can have a reasonable belief that it was real.

Either way, you better have a good lawyer, and I wouldn't worry about not being able to do your job. As civilian security, Even in the "perfect" justifiable lethal force scenario, you will still be placed in custody immediately after the event, and you will not be working until the court proccess is completed and your response is found to be justified.

edit for addition: The sad part is that not many companies will provide that lawyer for these situations, and in effect hang their man out to dry in case he wasn't justified. Even if you were, most companies don't like retaining employees with lethal force on their record. Sad, really.

[Critias]

Wargear, you're talking about security guards in real life. The rest of us are talking about non-US citizen corp bred-and-raised paramilitary extranational territory-protecting corporate security enforcers, and the laws they (and the SINless Shadowrunners) deal with.

There's a world of difference there.