Character Creation Questions, Discussions/Questions Options

[bitrunner]

This topic is for any specific questions about character creation/concepts.

Some General Guidelines

Creating A Character

1. Obtain a copy of the latest SR3 core rule book (so that you have all the errata).
2. Turn to the section on creating characters
3. Create a character -OR- pick one of the pregenerated characters

Other Tips

OK, there are some limitations. Basically, let common sense be your guide.

* We only use the base rules. Unless otherwise stated, no optional rules are used. Therefore, things such as the martial arts expansion in CC are not used. Also, while the SR3Comp is an excellent reference and should be consulted for background information, we do not use the alternate point system, edges and flaws, metavariants, shapeshifters, or other special characters.
* Keep in mind that, especially during a convention, time is a precious commodity. As such, we sometimes simplify things in the interest of moving along the story. One of these things is decking - we will sometimes simplify decking down to a roll for finding/penetrating the system, finding/manipulating the file/node in question, and getting out of the system without drawing attention. We suggest that if you want to play a decker, make sure you have other skills that are useful to the team, such as combat skills, technical skills, etc. A rigger/decker makes a good combination.
* We do acknowledge and follow the ruling that characters cannot start with gear that has an Availability higher than 8, or Device Rating higher than 6.

[Blitz]

If a player is utiliizing the NSRCG, can it safely be said that all characters made for SR Missions must be priority built with only the SR3 book loaded up? (You can add or remove certian books from being available)

Also, how is that dealt with for Magic, Cyberware or Bioware?

Is bioware available? Cultured? What about cyberware that only shows up in Man and Machine and not the core book?

Same thing for adept powers and magic totems/spells that only show up in MITS.

Also for Rigger 3...if you are playing a rigger are the rules and vehicles in Rigger 3 allowed or not?

Can you list which books are acceptable to draw from?

[bitrunner]

[Deacon]

[Blitz]

To be quite honest, the exclusion of SR Companion is enough to make this idea not so attractive to me. I have never, and will never, create a character based on Priority because I think it's a bad system. It's too exclusive and takes away a lot of control of how a character is built. With the points system, there is much more flexibility available for my character's concepts to be realized.

In addition, this would prohibit ANY edges and flaws for any character, and there's the rub. I personally feel that edges and flaws are what gives characters flavor and personality. It helps define what makes them special and what personal faults they need to overcome. It gives roleplayers a basis to which a characters motivation is developed.

If you were setting this game up as ONLY requiring the use of the main book, then I could understand it not being available, but you are allowing all of the core books (MITS, Matrix, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, etc.) so I cannot see why this book is not being allowed. Just like all those books, you can easily require that people have their little 3x5 cards with the blurb from the book....

Anyway, with that exclusion, I think you are going to lose a decent amount of interested parties. I know that in my group, I've known only ONE player that used the priority system in character gen.

[bitrunner]

well, there's the old expression "you can't please all the people..."

the point system is an optional system, as are the addition of edges and flaws... it might discourage some players away, but i think we'll gain more new players to the genre as a whole if they know they can buy just the core rule book and create a character that will be on par with everyone else...

for the most part, (yes, there are a couple of exceptions, magic being the biggest) most of the other books are just "toys" that can be added on later as long as you have the nuyen. if someone starts the game and likes it, they'll be more inclined to purchase the extra books and therefore get the toys.

the Companion is just that - something extra with variations on how to do things from the "normal" method.

And, finally, we're planning on concentrating the campaign on the story and roleplaying. if you're the type of person that gets hung up on how your numbers are arranged for your character so that you get the most out of him at character creation, rather than getting close and modifying him slightly, well, i don't know what to say. and characters get their "flavor" and "personality" through the background you create for them and how you roleplay them, not some arbitrary items you picked from a list worth points. If your character is afraid of spiders, and needs to overcome this personal fault or needs motivation, you use ROLEPLAYING...you don't need to buy the Flaw: Phobia, Mild, Spiders... So, i fully encourage players to look over the Edges and Flaws if they need ideas for fleshing out their characters, but they apply these in the character's background through roleplaying, not by spending points...

[bitrunner]

oh, and while 3x5 cards may be a good idea for a quick reference for the player - the requirement will be to have access to the book provided to the GM. a 3x5 card is not an official reference...

[TinkerGnome]

While I would love to be able to use sections of the companion for character creation, I have to say that I both understand and agree with the good reasons for disallowing it.

1) It's harder to (at a glance) determine if a character built on the point-based system is legal. With a priority based character generation, it's fairly obvious that the full mage with 1,000,000 nuyen in toys is illegal. With the point based system, it is neither simple nor obvious to make that determination.

2) Edges and Flaws would have to be gutted if they were allowed. A lot of the flaws simply don't make sense in a scenario-based environment. The modules aren't (and generally can't) be written to play off the flaws of various characters. So what if you took a high level hunted flaw if it never comes into play? Or an enemy? At a certain point, you'd end up with a shorter list and have everyone on the team take edges and flaws from the same dozen or so.

3) By cutting down on the powergaming that the edges, flaws, and point based generation can lead to (albino Gnome shaman with a starting willpower of 10, anyone?) you also cut down the relative level of opposition the group is likely to face. This makes the game much better in the sense that new players aren't going to be the victim of a bloodbath just because they can't make the numbers dance like a more experienced player. There will still be powergaming, but it's a little harder without the freedom of the point-based system.

I do have a question of my own. What will the geasa limiations/requirements be? Starting with cyberware and geasa allowed? Only certain geasa?

[bitrunner]

Geasa

Now that is a good question...
First off, remember that a geas should affect your character at some point - otherwise it is not a limitation. So, for the 'Condition' geasa, you should follow the same guidelines that are used for the 'Time' geasa, ie it should affect your character about 50% of the time. So, while you could take 'Only in Urban surroundings' as a geas, this really doesn't limit your character too much, since 75% or more of all scenarios are going to take place in Seattle. So the question becomes one of definition - what is 'urban'...does 'suburban' count? where is that line drawn? It would be better to take a condition like 'Indoors' or 'Outdoors' - but keep in mind that you should not stack limitations either - for instance, taking a geas of 'Only at night' when you are an Owl shaman is kinda cheesy, since you already are taking a mod for this, so you're going to try to work at night anyways...I have also seen someone that took the condition of "Only when no one can see me casting the spell" as a limitation, and then wearing a sustaining focus with Invisibility on it...ah, no...

other than that, the only one i have heartburn with is the Fasting geas...i'll have to think on that some more...

[TinkerGnome]

Hmm... is there a reason Fast Reply isn't enabled in this thread?

Anyway, I was more concerned with "are they allowed" than the specifics. Since I'd probably be using an adept if the question came up, I'd probably just end up with one point of powers geased to exclusive.

[Blitz]

It is a rare event that my edges and flaws dont balance out. And while I agree that a full and rich background is desireable and encouraged, rarely in events such as the ones you are planning to run here will allow the GM time to read over my background stories. Instead, GM's typically glance over the character SHEET to make sure nothing is over powering and to get a sense of the characters abilities and such. If my character has a phobia of spiders that may NEVER be roleplayed if the GM isn't aware of it and provides a situation for it to be addressed...or perhaps a traumatic event in a former life would cause flashbacks at the sight of magical fire...again..if the event doesn't happen, then the roleplaying aspect is lost.

In addition, what if your character has a special ability, like a mage with unusually fast reflexes, or a human that can see in the dark better than most. Perhaps your character made a valuable friend early in their career who they might want to call on on the future for a favor, or due to years of training and working with a biological toxin, they have developed an immunity to it. None of these can be added to the character through roleplaying alone because they have game mechanics to represent their special assets.

While I can understand not allowing any flavor text books to keep it simple, you ARE allowing all others. Im getting the sense that YOU personally don't like the options or have had bad experiences with people abusing the edges and flaws. However, you are allowing the other expansion books to be used that fall under the same category as the SR Companion.

If this is a game that is designed solely to bring new players into the game then it's definately something I'll refrain from. I was under the impression that it was a way to link up gamers in a truly epic storyline. Not exactly something I would picture for newbie players. I like the game in it's entirety and so with the restrictions you've placed, count me out.

[Deacon]

[TinkerGnome]

Just add a one or two geasa limit at character gen. That lets those who want them take them without opening it up to abuse any more than necessary.

[Deacon]

[bitrunner]

Those edges/flaws which provide some special ability, such as Night Vision for humans, can be replicated through SURGE or other special talents and can be obtained through campaign play...

As for bringing in newbies, well, to be honest, this campaign is part of the marketing strategy for FanPro, just as the RPGA and its games is a marketing ploy for Wizards of the Coast. The point is to keep interest in the game, and therefore attract new blood, who will purchase more books. For those that already are involved in Shadowrun, it is designed to keep their interest level high and continue to play the game, rather than move on to something else - hopefully they will continue to buy product as well. Some people would love to continue to play Shadowrun, but cannot because of geographical limitations, finances, or other reasons - this allows them to continue to participate as well.

While the adventures will be available to be ordered and played with your home group, it is NOT a home campaign - as has been mentioned, Edges and Flaws are, for the most part, something that can provide adventure hooks for your GM and can be developed in a home campaign - this is not something we're equipped to deal with.

Also, as a final note, Edges and Flaws are OPTIONAL, and we do not use any optional rules in order to keep things simple...they are NOT part of the core rules, as many people seem to think.

[bitrunner]

oh, and i forgot to add...

[last_of_the_grea...]

Hmmm...you mentioned SURGE, Bitty ol' pal! Are the SURGE effects from Year of the Comet allowed or were you saying that SURGE will happen over the course of the 2 year campaign? If so, I assume it must be equal "edge and flaw" type...no "Hey, I rolled a 6 for advantageous SURGEs and a 1 for detrimental SURGEs. Cool."

[bitrunner]

SURGE is not allowed during character creation...i was implying that it might occur during the campaign....

We had a scenario in VS that provided for characters to undergo SURGE effects, and yes, it was random - we modified the tables somewhat. The character would make the Essence roll, and for every success, they would receive one random positive and one random negative effect. we did not use the point system...however, with a few exceptions, most of the effects (remember we modified the tables by taking some entries out) were only worth 1 or 2 points, and so they pretty much balanced themselves out...we had also added some of the Edges/Flaws into the SURGE table, such as Night Vision.

my point is that it is something that comes through during game play, on a rare basis, like finding a delta clinic. who knows when a character is going to end up getting wonked on the head and ends up waking up with amnesia - or a photographic memory (or both!).

[Mark Somers]

As a tactical measure I'd suggest it's best to try - or be seen to be trying, at least :D - to allow as many of the rule variants as possible, since this is a vehicle to push SR stuff in much more ways than VS was. If used properly and in the correct spirit then the edges and flaws allow so much more character 'life' than the base rules.

It'd be worthwhile at the very least to see how hard it would be to zip through the list and checklist the available edges and flaws, and impose a limit - say no more than 5 points of edges or flaws possibly - to keep things playable. If you allow the point buy system - which I think is more elegant than the priority method - then edges and flaws don't need to balance anyway.

[TinkerGnome]

The following flaws would probably be inappropriate because of logistics (GMs not being able to exploit them properly, or the flaws not being sufficiently easy to organize or for balance reasons):

Incompetence
Allergy
Bio-Rejection
Borrowed Time
Amnesia
Flashbacks
Compulsive
Phobia
Sea Legs
Sea Madness
Vindictive
Total Pacifist
Dependant
Dark Secret
Day Job
Distinctive Style
Extra Enemy
Liar
Scorched
Cranial Bomb
Hunted
Mysterious Cyberware

Out of 59 flaws (counting Matrix Addiction) you have 22 which you couldn't really use. How special would characters be when they're picking from the same 37 flaws for everyone? Won't you run into the same character flaws over and over and over?

[bitrunner]

OH MY GOD!!! Someone gets it!!! :)

seriously, yes, this was one of the primary reasons...i mean, really, if you aren't going to be able to use half of something, why confuse the issue by adding the other half?? I will actually post all the edges/flaws that i have a problem with...next post

[bitrunner]

EDGES/FLAWS that present a problem, based on experience through the VS system and in discussion with other GMs, online games, MUDs, etc...this is just a sampling and not an all inclusive listing...

Aptitude/Incompetence - This is one of the problem ones...even though it says "It is strongly recommended that the gamemaster consider carefully before allowing any player character to take an Aptitude in any Combat, Magical, or Computer skill, as these can easily disrupt the balance of a game." and we specified that on the website, I was constantly seeing characters with an Aptitude: Sorcery Edge. Aptitude should only be taken once (you can take Incompetent as often as desired, but see further). Remember that this is Edges and Flaws. Having a hermetic mage take an Incompentence in Computer/Decking is hardly a flaw, nor is an Incompetence in ANY knowledge skill or language a Flaw. These must be for ACTIVE skills, and must be somewhat relevant to the character. A mage is rarely, if ever, asked to deck, so Computer should not be used as an Incompetence Flaw. However, a mage is often asked to use Stealth - should this be available as a Flaw? What about the mage that just sustains or locks down a Stealth spell to counteract his Flaw?? it is no longer a Flaw at this point. About the only thing i can think of for a Flaw for a mage would be a Combat skill. For the Edge, there's not much choice left except for Physical, Social, or B/R skills... I'd just soon outlaw this combo.

Home Ground - As it states, gamemasters should approve all Home Grounds...It is something I don't want to mess with. Too hard to administrate.

Allergy - BOY, is this one munchkined!!! I don't know how many street samurai i've seen with an allergy to orichalcum!!!

Blind - As mentioned, this does not affect someone from rigging or decking if they only have nerve damage, not brain damage. therefore, i've seen one or two people that take this flaw and then mount a microcamcorder or two on themselves and have them wired into their brains with a head deck...so they can pay some cheap essence costs to get rid of the flaw, and actually have vision with add-on capabilities such as 360 vision, thermo, peek around corners (just take the camera and hold it around a corner), or other such stuff...

Borrowed Time - GMs are reluctant to kill characters sometimes, because they're afraid that the players will not like them or the game they ran...therefore, players who know this will take this flaw. Also, the GM is supposed to roll 3D6 to determine how many months the character has to live. You're going to follow what the player writes down? what would be needed is something like roll 1D6 for each scenario played - if a 1 is rolled, the character dies at the end of the scenario, but that of course violates the "home rule" goal...

Deaf - see Blind

Paraplegic - need i go into this? Fine for a home game, where the GM can plan for stuff, but we can't remember to write in stuff for a wheelie guy all to time

Quadriplegic - See above - the whole point is to play as a team...this would be very hard to work, at least from a campaign standpoint, and does not engender team play.

Amnesia - Here is another one...how can you expect a new GM every time to control your character with total amnesia??

Combat Monster - a lot of players take this flaw, along with Vindictive. We are trying to engender an atmosphere for the "perfect shadowrun" - no one knows that you were even there or that you took anything until you are long gone. it is hard to do that if one or two people on your team feel the need to kill everyone they come across. this becomes, in the mind of these players, a "license to kill". Gee, Mr. GM, i'm a combat monster, i just HAVE to attack those guards - i'm forced to do it by my Flaw!

Common Sense - Actually, this should be a REQUIRED feature of every character! :)

Compulsive - Since it is a variable value, the player really ends up deciding...of course they are going to make it a -3 or more!

Flashbacks - Triggers have to be determined at character creation, in concert with a GM. for home use, this is fine, but having a different GM for each scenario makes this difficult, and, like the Hunted Flaw, something that has to be reviewed and worked into a scenario that is only 3.5 hours long...it just won't get used enough to warrant the -4 points.

Phobia - As with Allergy, this is abused quite easily. it is also another Flaw that the GM must try to work into a scenario such as Flashbacks and Hunted.

Sea Legs - I've seen this one abused as well. The player just buys a boat and has it docked somewhere in Seattle - It could even be on a lake, it doesn't specify the ocean, only water. then, every night, the character just sleeps on his boat - it may NEVER leave the dock, and technically, this satisfies the Flaw's requirement of "being on the water".

Sea Madness - even though it says this Flaw should only be taken by characters that will spend time on the water, it is sometimes taken. Oh, but my character USED to be a pirate, it's in my background, and so I have this Flaw...

Total Pacifist - So as to expose the characters to many types of missions, and to satiate the bloodlust of some of the players, we end up having wetwork missions from time to time. Characters with this Flaw would have a hard time rationalizing why they were chosen for such a mission, and may even refuse - now that player has nothing to do for 4 hours...

Vindictive - the "license to kill" Flaw...But Mr. GM, he looked at me funny, now i have to kill him! My Klingon honor demands it!!!

Connected - too broad and open to interpretation. With a home GM, this could be worked out...with a campaign, the player could choose the one type of merchandise to be "electronics" or "weapons"...too broad.

Dark Secret - Supposed to occur every two or three gaming sessions...how many sessions has it been? are you the lucky GM that now has to work this into the 4 hour scenario? Oh and don't forget the other players that are Hunted, have Flashbacks, or Phobias!!

Day Job - the problem with this is that, especially for the -3 Flaw, it pretty much requires you to have a legal SIN. this is totally contrary to the setting of the campaign, where everyone is SINless, having to have thier pasts erased to escape the authorities or other forces.

Dependent - variable, too open to interpretation...the player would have to set the value. And, once again, this has to be figured into a scenario somehow, or it is not a Flaw.

Extra Enemy - enemies are determined through the storyline - not determined by the player.

Friends in High Places - Yes, there are characters out there that have the Governor of Seattle or the head of LoneStar as a Contact...

Hung Out To Dry - this is taken usually by a character that has a Charisma of 1, and doesn't want to have to do any Legwork or deal with Contacts...all they need are the other team members to buy stuff for him.

Bad Karma - This turns out to be a freebie, as some players want to make sure that their character does not earn Karma too fast so that they won't have to retire him...the problem with this concept is that we base the game on TOTAL GOOD KARMA, and not Karma Pool...

Cranial Bomb - Another freebie like Borrowed Time...the player is betting on the fact that the GM won't just arbitrarily want to kill a character...This is a Flaw that is supposed to be worked into the campaign history for a home campaign when the character is first created.

Hunted - This, like others, are hard to manage because the scenarios are written without knowing any thing about the characters. If you become hunted, it is through NPC interaction in the game, not something that was arbitrarily decided at character creation. The flaw is intended to give your GM ideas and adventure hooks for when things need to be done to motivate your character. We do this through the scenarios.

Mysterious Cyberware - pretty similar to many of the other Flaws which really only work in a home campaign. it is too nebulous, and you are depending on the GM that has never worked with the character/player before to come up with a mysterious piece of cyberware should it be detected..then pick replacement Flaws to make up the points. this will just eat up precious time during the short time slot...

Pirate Family - not appropriate in a standard campaign, this Flaw is for use for those campaigns that are going to move around alot, especially ship based teams...

[Blitz]

Point #1. Your game, your rules. I just find it limiting and against the nature of the world Fasa created and Fan Pro inherited. You've disallowed the majority of the factors that make SR enjoyable to me. I prefer characters with depth and originality and both the points system as well as the introduction to edges and flaws to be one of the main reasons I enjoy spending weeks creating characters vs. the 1 hour roll 'em up character gens of other games. No harm though...I don't like your restrictions so I will not participate. Simple as that. I get plenty of play to satisfy my addiction.

Point#2. I HATE HATE HATE people who find things they dislike about a gaming system and then impose dozens of house rules to correct what they see as flaws. I was involved in two such games...we ended up calling those games Jason Run and Shadow Russ. If you are running your game you can make your rules, but since this is a FanPro sponsored game, you might want to be careful about changing or excluding cannon material.

That brings me to my final point. (warning..rant impending)

Point#3. As an official spokesperson of FanPro by running this official gaming program, you should be more careful before asserting your house rules on the system. You have your right to opinions on the edges and flaws offered in the book, but to take it to this forum is not very business-savvy. You are, in effect, stating to anyone reading that the Shadowrun Companion is a bad book to purchase and tends to throw games into the abhorred "munchkin" category.

Wise up, munchkin's are munchkins regardless of what game or what books you are playing with. You cannot and should not punish good gamers because of fear over bad gamers. SR is one of the games I feel that is very well balanced in it's rules and I, as a GM (unofficially AND officially) always honor any ruling that can be cited in a current 3rd edition source book. ANY SOURCE BOOK.

By making these limitations, you are in essence stating that they are poorly written to allow bad gaming. If you had simply stated that you only want to use 3 main books to keep it simple for newbies, then fine. That I can understand. For you to allow all 3rd ed. books but the SR Companion because it's too munchkiny or difficult to GM, is to put a very negative spin on a book that I think adds wonderful dimension to the game and which, Im sure, FanPro would LIKE to sell to their customers, both new and old.

[bitrunner]

i'm not asserting any house rules - in fact, we're trying to eliminate them by sticking to the core rules...

when you get down to it, as i've stated before, the Edges/Flaws system is optional - it is not part of the core rules system.

and, i have stated that the Shadowrun Companion is a valuable book to have for the background material it provides. the beginning of the book is, however, all about optional ways to generate characters, and extra stuff you can do to make your campaign "different". I agree that the book adds to the game, but i'm sorry to concede any points that using such rules would be hard to administrate in the type of campaign we're running. we experienced these growing pains already, and debated the pros/cons of edges/flaws till we were blue in the face.

i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. i only hope that you don't impose your views about the campaign on others - let them read this forum and/or try out the campaign for themselves and let them decide... 8)

[DigitalMage]