This topic is for any specific questions about character creation/concepts.
Some General Guidelines
Creating A Character
1. Obtain a copy of the latest SR3 core rule book (so that you have all the errata).
2. Turn to the section on creating characters
3. Create a character -OR- pick one of the pregenerated characters
Other Tips
OK, there are some limitations. Basically, let common sense be your guide.
* We only use the base rules. Unless otherwise stated, no optional rules are used. Therefore, things such as the martial arts expansion in CC are not used. Also, while the SR3Comp is an excellent reference and should be consulted for background information, we do not use the alternate point system, edges and flaws, metavariants, shapeshifters, or other special characters.
* Keep in mind that, especially during a convention, time is a precious commodity. As such, we sometimes simplify things in the interest of moving along the story. One of these things is decking - we will sometimes simplify decking down to a roll for finding/penetrating the system, finding/manipulating the file/node in question, and getting out of the system without drawing attention. We suggest that if you want to play a decker, make sure you have other skills that are useful to the team, such as combat skills, technical skills, etc. A rigger/decker makes a good combination.
* We do acknowledge and follow the ruling that characters cannot start with gear that has an Availability higher than 8, or Device Rating higher than 6.
Full Version: Character Creation Questions
If a player is utiliizing the NSRCG, can it safely be said that all characters made for SR Missions must be priority built with only the SR3 book loaded up? (You can add or remove certian books from being available)
Also, how is that dealt with for Magic, Cyberware or Bioware?
Is bioware available? Cultured? What about cyberware that only shows up in Man and Machine and not the core book?
Same thing for adept powers and magic totems/spells that only show up in MITS.
Also for Rigger 3...if you are playing a rigger are the rules and vehicles in Rigger 3 allowed or not?
Can you list which books are acceptable to draw from?
Also, how is that dealt with for Magic, Cyberware or Bioware?
Is bioware available? Cultured? What about cyberware that only shows up in Man and Machine and not the core book?
Same thing for adept powers and magic totems/spells that only show up in MITS.
Also for Rigger 3...if you are playing a rigger are the rules and vehicles in Rigger 3 allowed or not?
Can you list which books are acceptable to draw from?
| QUOTE (Blitz) |
| If a player is utiliizing the NSRCG, can it safely be said that all characters made for SR Missions must be priority built with only the SR3 book loaded up? (You can add or remove certian books from being available) Also, how is that dealt with for Magic, Cyberware or Bioware? Is bioware available? Cultured? What about cyberware that only shows up in Man and Machine and not the core book? Same thing for adept powers and magic totems/spells that only show up in MITS. Also for Rigger 3...if you are playing a rigger are the rules and vehicles in Rigger 3 allowed or not? Can you list which books are acceptable to draw from? |
* NSRCG
Yep, pretty much
* Bioware
Bioware and the cyberware from M&M is available at character generation, as long as it conforms to the Avail<=8 Rating<=6 rule - and of course if you have the Resources for it...as per the core rules, and M&M pg 45, alphaware is available. As per the official FAQ, cultured bioware, betaware, deltaware and nanoware all require a beta clinic or better, and are therefore not available at character generation (sorry!). Remember that if you have any bioware or cyberware from M&M, you must have access to this book during the game for the GMs reference.
* Magic totems et al in MITS
Yes, you can use these new totems and spells and powers as well. Note, however, that we will be subscribing to the notion of a "moral" campaign, where shadowrunners are working towards fighting "The Man" and working together as a TEAM with other runners. If you are wanting to play a totem that does ritual sacrifice or a toxic, you are not going to fit in well as a team player - you have been warned...(see rant below)
Once again, if you use anything from MITS for your character, you must have that book available for the GM to reference during the game.
* Rigger 3 (and 3.5)
Certainly the vehicles/drones are allowed, and you can certainly customize your vehicles by having a GM witness your B/R rolls. We will use such rules as are appropriate for the situation, your character should be prepared to follow such rules.
* What books are allowed
SR3, CC, MITS, M&M, R3.5, SOTA, SSG, MATRIX are all allowed. Superceded books, such as FOF and the Grimoire, are not. Feel free to use the spiffy new Character Dossiers when they hit the shelves!
For those new to Shadowrun, and even us old geezers that have been around since the start, I highly recommend the Sprawl Survival Guide for background information.
As other books are released, an announcement will go out on whether it is allowed or not - since we are officially sponsored by FanPro, I do not foresee any problems. Keep in mind, however, that this campaign is a little different than running a home campaign with a GM that knows your character and can handle/work in a lot of stuff into a home setting. There may be some things that are determined to be just too hard to integrate into the system or not conducive to the style of play we are encouraging.
(rant)
Also, remember that you, as a player, have a big advantage in that you can specialize and memorize all the little obscure rules that pertain to your character and his/her abilities and toys. The GM may not have this luxury. For instance, I'll be upfront and tell you that I don't waste my brain cells with the Voodoo rules...hate 'em, never liked them (voodoo that is, not the rules)...I have an unusual propensity to 'accidently' kill any characters I come across that are Voodoo worshippers...can't you be happy with the 50 other choices for being a shaman and pull a simple city or nature spirit??
(/rant)
* Other
If you have any specific questions about a character, feel free to post them here (if you enjoy public ridicule) or email me at bitrunner@cfl.rr.com and I'll let you know if it is appropriate.
| QUOTE |
| Also, remember that you, as a player, have a big advantage in that you can specialize and memorize all the little obscure rules that pertain to your character and his/her abilities and toys. The GM may not have this luxury. |
A GOOD thing to do here would be to use a 3x5 note card to record any piece of gear, magic, cyberware or compound's effect/abilities for the GM's information. This way, when you're sitting at a table with a GM who isn't familiar with all of the rules (hey, not everyone buys all the books), and you start telling him about what effects your Balance Tail has, if you have that 3x5 card handy, you don't have to pull out a copy of Man & Machine to let him read... it's all right there.
I do something similar for in-game drugs for one of my characters... saves much wear and tear on my copy of M&M.
| QUOTE |
| For instance, I'll be upfront and tell you that I don't waste my brain cells with the Voodoo rules...hate 'em, never liked them (voodoo that is, not the rules)...I have an unusual propensity to 'accidently' kill any characters I come across that are Voodoo worshippers...can't you be happy with the 50 other choices for being a shaman and pull a simple city or nature spirit?? |
I've yet to see the benefits (beyond RP) that being a Houngan gives you, that outweigh the benefits of just being a normal Totemic/Idolatrous Shaman. There's that whole Loa thing... but as that essentially takes control of the character away from the player (or it should...), what use is it? Better to just play a normal Shaman and follow a Totem or Idol that matches your patron Loa's influences... that way you're not messing with Bitsy's head.
Oh, and my above suggestion holds true: If your shaman has a totem outside of the SR3 book (i.e., from Magic in the Shadows), make sure to have your totem's information handy for the GM to read if it's necessary.
To be quite honest, the exclusion of SR Companion is enough to make this idea not so attractive to me. I have never, and will never, create a character based on Priority because I think it's a bad system. It's too exclusive and takes away a lot of control of how a character is built. With the points system, there is much more flexibility available for my character's concepts to be realized.
In addition, this would prohibit ANY edges and flaws for any character, and there's the rub. I personally feel that edges and flaws are what gives characters flavor and personality. It helps define what makes them special and what personal faults they need to overcome. It gives roleplayers a basis to which a characters motivation is developed.
If you were setting this game up as ONLY requiring the use of the main book, then I could understand it not being available, but you are allowing all of the core books (MITS, Matrix, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, etc.) so I cannot see why this book is not being allowed. Just like all those books, you can easily require that people have their little 3x5 cards with the blurb from the book....
Anyway, with that exclusion, I think you are going to lose a decent amount of interested parties. I know that in my group, I've known only ONE player that used the priority system in character gen.
In addition, this would prohibit ANY edges and flaws for any character, and there's the rub. I personally feel that edges and flaws are what gives characters flavor and personality. It helps define what makes them special and what personal faults they need to overcome. It gives roleplayers a basis to which a characters motivation is developed.
If you were setting this game up as ONLY requiring the use of the main book, then I could understand it not being available, but you are allowing all of the core books (MITS, Matrix, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, etc.) so I cannot see why this book is not being allowed. Just like all those books, you can easily require that people have their little 3x5 cards with the blurb from the book....
Anyway, with that exclusion, I think you are going to lose a decent amount of interested parties. I know that in my group, I've known only ONE player that used the priority system in character gen.
well, there's the old expression "you can't please all the people..."
the point system is an optional system, as are the addition of edges and flaws... it might discourage some players away, but i think we'll gain more new players to the genre as a whole if they know they can buy just the core rule book and create a character that will be on par with everyone else...
for the most part, (yes, there are a couple of exceptions, magic being the biggest) most of the other books are just "toys" that can be added on later as long as you have the nuyen. if someone starts the game and likes it, they'll be more inclined to purchase the extra books and therefore get the toys.
the Companion is just that - something extra with variations on how to do things from the "normal" method.
And, finally, we're planning on concentrating the campaign on the story and roleplaying. if you're the type of person that gets hung up on how your numbers are arranged for your character so that you get the most out of him at character creation, rather than getting close and modifying him slightly, well, i don't know what to say. and characters get their "flavor" and "personality" through the background you create for them and how you roleplay them, not some arbitrary items you picked from a list worth points. If your character is afraid of spiders, and needs to overcome this personal fault or needs motivation, you use ROLEPLAYING...you don't need to buy the Flaw: Phobia, Mild, Spiders... So, i fully encourage players to look over the Edges and Flaws if they need ideas for fleshing out their characters, but they apply these in the character's background through roleplaying, not by spending points...
the point system is an optional system, as are the addition of edges and flaws... it might discourage some players away, but i think we'll gain more new players to the genre as a whole if they know they can buy just the core rule book and create a character that will be on par with everyone else...
for the most part, (yes, there are a couple of exceptions, magic being the biggest) most of the other books are just "toys" that can be added on later as long as you have the nuyen. if someone starts the game and likes it, they'll be more inclined to purchase the extra books and therefore get the toys.
the Companion is just that - something extra with variations on how to do things from the "normal" method.
And, finally, we're planning on concentrating the campaign on the story and roleplaying. if you're the type of person that gets hung up on how your numbers are arranged for your character so that you get the most out of him at character creation, rather than getting close and modifying him slightly, well, i don't know what to say. and characters get their "flavor" and "personality" through the background you create for them and how you roleplay them, not some arbitrary items you picked from a list worth points. If your character is afraid of spiders, and needs to overcome this personal fault or needs motivation, you use ROLEPLAYING...you don't need to buy the Flaw: Phobia, Mild, Spiders... So, i fully encourage players to look over the Edges and Flaws if they need ideas for fleshing out their characters, but they apply these in the character's background through roleplaying, not by spending points...
oh, and while 3x5 cards may be a good idea for a quick reference for the player - the requirement will be to have access to the book provided to the GM. a 3x5 card is not an official reference...
While I would love to be able to use sections of the companion for character creation, I have to say that I both understand and agree with the good reasons for disallowing it.
1) It's harder to (at a glance) determine if a character built on the point-based system is legal. With a priority based character generation, it's fairly obvious that the full mage with 1,000,000 nuyen in toys is illegal. With the point based system, it is neither simple nor obvious to make that determination.
2) Edges and Flaws would have to be gutted if they were allowed. A lot of the flaws simply don't make sense in a scenario-based environment. The modules aren't (and generally can't) be written to play off the flaws of various characters. So what if you took a high level hunted flaw if it never comes into play? Or an enemy? At a certain point, you'd end up with a shorter list and have everyone on the team take edges and flaws from the same dozen or so.
3) By cutting down on the powergaming that the edges, flaws, and point based generation can lead to (albino Gnome shaman with a starting willpower of 10, anyone?) you also cut down the relative level of opposition the group is likely to face. This makes the game much better in the sense that new players aren't going to be the victim of a bloodbath just because they can't make the numbers dance like a more experienced player. There will still be powergaming, but it's a little harder without the freedom of the point-based system.
I do have a question of my own. What will the geasa limiations/requirements be? Starting with cyberware and geasa allowed? Only certain geasa?
1) It's harder to (at a glance) determine if a character built on the point-based system is legal. With a priority based character generation, it's fairly obvious that the full mage with 1,000,000 nuyen in toys is illegal. With the point based system, it is neither simple nor obvious to make that determination.
2) Edges and Flaws would have to be gutted if they were allowed. A lot of the flaws simply don't make sense in a scenario-based environment. The modules aren't (and generally can't) be written to play off the flaws of various characters. So what if you took a high level hunted flaw if it never comes into play? Or an enemy? At a certain point, you'd end up with a shorter list and have everyone on the team take edges and flaws from the same dozen or so.
3) By cutting down on the powergaming that the edges, flaws, and point based generation can lead to (albino Gnome shaman with a starting willpower of 10, anyone?) you also cut down the relative level of opposition the group is likely to face. This makes the game much better in the sense that new players aren't going to be the victim of a bloodbath just because they can't make the numbers dance like a more experienced player. There will still be powergaming, but it's a little harder without the freedom of the point-based system.
I do have a question of my own. What will the geasa limiations/requirements be? Starting with cyberware and geasa allowed? Only certain geasa?
Geasa
Now that is a good question...
First off, remember that a geas should affect your character at some point - otherwise it is not a limitation. So, for the 'Condition' geasa, you should follow the same guidelines that are used for the 'Time' geasa, ie it should affect your character about 50% of the time. So, while you could take 'Only in Urban surroundings' as a geas, this really doesn't limit your character too much, since 75% or more of all scenarios are going to take place in Seattle. So the question becomes one of definition - what is 'urban'...does 'suburban' count? where is that line drawn? It would be better to take a condition like 'Indoors' or 'Outdoors' - but keep in mind that you should not stack limitations either - for instance, taking a geas of 'Only at night' when you are an Owl shaman is kinda cheesy, since you already are taking a mod for this, so you're going to try to work at night anyways...I have also seen someone that took the condition of "Only when no one can see me casting the spell" as a limitation, and then wearing a sustaining focus with Invisibility on it...ah, no...
other than that, the only one i have heartburn with is the Fasting geas...i'll have to think on that some more...
Now that is a good question...
First off, remember that a geas should affect your character at some point - otherwise it is not a limitation. So, for the 'Condition' geasa, you should follow the same guidelines that are used for the 'Time' geasa, ie it should affect your character about 50% of the time. So, while you could take 'Only in Urban surroundings' as a geas, this really doesn't limit your character too much, since 75% or more of all scenarios are going to take place in Seattle. So the question becomes one of definition - what is 'urban'...does 'suburban' count? where is that line drawn? It would be better to take a condition like 'Indoors' or 'Outdoors' - but keep in mind that you should not stack limitations either - for instance, taking a geas of 'Only at night' when you are an Owl shaman is kinda cheesy, since you already are taking a mod for this, so you're going to try to work at night anyways...I have also seen someone that took the condition of "Only when no one can see me casting the spell" as a limitation, and then wearing a sustaining focus with Invisibility on it...ah, no...
other than that, the only one i have heartburn with is the Fasting geas...i'll have to think on that some more...
Hmm... is there a reason Fast Reply isn't enabled in this thread?
Anyway, I was more concerned with "are they allowed" than the specifics. Since I'd probably be using an adept if the question came up, I'd probably just end up with one point of powers geased to exclusive.
Anyway, I was more concerned with "are they allowed" than the specifics. Since I'd probably be using an adept if the question came up, I'd probably just end up with one point of powers geased to exclusive.
It is a rare event that my edges and flaws dont balance out. And while I agree that a full and rich background is desireable and encouraged, rarely in events such as the ones you are planning to run here will allow the GM time to read over my background stories. Instead, GM's typically glance over the character SHEET to make sure nothing is over powering and to get a sense of the characters abilities and such. If my character has a phobia of spiders that may NEVER be roleplayed if the GM isn't aware of it and provides a situation for it to be addressed...or perhaps a traumatic event in a former life would cause flashbacks at the sight of magical fire...again..if the event doesn't happen, then the roleplaying aspect is lost.
In addition, what if your character has a special ability, like a mage with unusually fast reflexes, or a human that can see in the dark better than most. Perhaps your character made a valuable friend early in their career who they might want to call on on the future for a favor, or due to years of training and working with a biological toxin, they have developed an immunity to it. None of these can be added to the character through roleplaying alone because they have game mechanics to represent their special assets.
While I can understand not allowing any flavor text books to keep it simple, you ARE allowing all others. Im getting the sense that YOU personally don't like the options or have had bad experiences with people abusing the edges and flaws. However, you are allowing the other expansion books to be used that fall under the same category as the SR Companion.
If this is a game that is designed solely to bring new players into the game then it's definately something I'll refrain from. I was under the impression that it was a way to link up gamers in a truly epic storyline. Not exactly something I would picture for newbie players. I like the game in it's entirety and so with the restrictions you've placed, count me out.
In addition, what if your character has a special ability, like a mage with unusually fast reflexes, or a human that can see in the dark better than most. Perhaps your character made a valuable friend early in their career who they might want to call on on the future for a favor, or due to years of training and working with a biological toxin, they have developed an immunity to it. None of these can be added to the character through roleplaying alone because they have game mechanics to represent their special assets.
While I can understand not allowing any flavor text books to keep it simple, you ARE allowing all others. Im getting the sense that YOU personally don't like the options or have had bad experiences with people abusing the edges and flaws. However, you are allowing the other expansion books to be used that fall under the same category as the SR Companion.
If this is a game that is designed solely to bring new players into the game then it's definately something I'll refrain from. I was under the impression that it was a way to link up gamers in a truly epic storyline. Not exactly something I would picture for newbie players. I like the game in it's entirety and so with the restrictions you've placed, count me out.
| QUOTE (bitrunner) |
| other than that, the only one i have heartburn with is the Fasting geas...i'll have to think on that some more... |
The fasting geas is fun to play with. The 'runners get invited to a fancy restaurant, the Johnson is there, tells them to sit down and enjoy the food, it's all real beef, real food, dinner is great and wonderful and then the J tells the 'runners the 'run has to go down in the next 12 hours. There went that fasting geas...
Oh, your character doesn't eat?
The Johnson is mortally offended. There went half your team's pay (he's still going to hire you but he isn't going to like it), and the J isn't likely to be friendly any time in the near future. Is your geas worth getting the team mad at you?One thing I'd like to propose is that, while Geasa be allowed in the campaign, they not be allowed at character creation. Why? Because I've seen people play characters with 5 points' worth of essence in cyberware and a Magic rating of 4. This was not an initiate -- the character came out of chargen that way. That isn't twinkishness -- that's downright raping the rules right there. I'd prefer that people start out on the same keel powerwise, to prevent the authors of the adventures from having to cover too wide a spread of power to challenge the characters. Having one of these cybered twinks in a party of newbies is akin to having a jackal in a herd of buffalo...
If a mage wants cyberware at chargen, there's nothing stopping him from taking it. But it comes with a price. Your magic suffers.
Deacon
Just add a one or two geasa limit at character gen. That lets those who want them take them without opening it up to abuse any more than necessary.
| QUOTE (Blitz @ Sep 23 2003, 06:08 PM) |
| QUOTE |
| It is a rare event that my edges and flaws dont balance out. |
Good for you. Now, can you guarantee the same thing can be said for all the other players in the campaign?
| QUOTE |
| And while I agree that a full and rich background is desireable and encouraged, rarely in events such as the ones you are planning to run here will allow the GM time to read over my background stories. Instead, GM's typically glance over the character SHEET to make sure nothing is over powering and to get a sense of the characters abilities and such. |
You're overestimating the administrative abilities of the GMs. Typically they don't have the time to even look over the sheet; they're busy trying to get people ready to play, get the adventure started and deal with paperwork to have ten minutes to look over peoples' sheets.
| QUOTE |
| If my character has a phobia of spiders that may NEVER be roleplayed if the GM isn't aware of it and provides a situation for it to be addressed...or perhaps a traumatic event in a former life would cause flashbacks at the sight of magical fire...again..if the event doesn't happen, then the roleplaying aspect is lost. |
No, it's up to you to make people aware of that. I don't know if you ever played Virtual Seattle, or any of the other Living Campaigns, but there is just no way the adventure writers can plan for everyone's flaws and make them felt in the campaign. No way at all. Sure, someone may have the combat monster flaw... but what if there's no combat in the adventure? (I've seen several VS modules that don't have any combat whatsoever.) Someone may have a phobia of spiders... but how are the adventure writers to know that when they write their adventures?
THAT is the big problem with edges & flaws... there's just no way we can write enough situations into a module for EVERYONE'S flaws to come into play, and in a game mechanic sense, that's unfair and unbalancing.
| QUOTE |
| In addition, what if your character has a special ability, like a mage with unusually fast reflexes, or a human that can see in the dark better than most. Perhaps your character made a valuable friend early in their career who they might want to call on on the future for a favor, or due to years of training and working with a biological toxin, they have developed an immunity to it. None of these can be added to the character through roleplaying alone because they have game mechanics to represent their special assets. |
Mage with unusually fast reflexes? Buy Boosted Reflexes. Human who can see in the dark? Buy low-light vision cyberware. Valuable friend? Level 2 or 3 contact. Immunity to a toxin? Blood filtration. Any edge you may want can be simulated through cyberware. The only ones that can't are the really twinky ones like Focussed Concentration and Aptitude.
| QUOTE |
| While I can understand not allowing any flavor text books to keep it simple, you ARE allowing all others. Im getting the sense that YOU personally don't like the options or have had bad experiences with people abusing the edges and flaws. However, you are allowing the other expansion books to be used that fall under the same category as the SR Companion. |
It's not that bitrunner alone has had bad experiences with edges & flaws. This isn't a standard tabletop environment. The people who have experience in Virtual Seattle have all seen what happens when Edges & Flaws go unchecked. Rampant twinkishness occurs. And that's not what we want to have in the campaign.
| QUOTE |
| If this is a game that is designed solely to bring new players into the game then it's definately something I'll refrain from. I was under the impression that it was a way to link up gamers in a truly epic storyline. Not exactly something I would picture for newbie players. I like the game in it's entirety and so with the restrictions you've placed, count me out. |
Sorry to see you leave, but with all the energy you spent complaining over what is such a minor point in the campaign, I feel justified in saying 'don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya'. Like he said, you can't please everybody. If you want an epic campaign that allows edges & flaws, talk to Rob Boyle about becoming the director of a similar, higher powered campaign. If all you want to do is kvetch about how the rules of Shadowrun Missions won't let you play your favorite concept, you know where the door is.
-John Scheibeler
-Deacon
Those edges/flaws which provide some special ability, such as Night Vision for humans, can be replicated through SURGE or other special talents and can be obtained through campaign play...
As for bringing in newbies, well, to be honest, this campaign is part of the marketing strategy for FanPro, just as the RPGA and its games is a marketing ploy for Wizards of the Coast. The point is to keep interest in the game, and therefore attract new blood, who will purchase more books. For those that already are involved in Shadowrun, it is designed to keep their interest level high and continue to play the game, rather than move on to something else - hopefully they will continue to buy product as well. Some people would love to continue to play Shadowrun, but cannot because of geographical limitations, finances, or other reasons - this allows them to continue to participate as well.
While the adventures will be available to be ordered and played with your home group, it is NOT a home campaign - as has been mentioned, Edges and Flaws are, for the most part, something that can provide adventure hooks for your GM and can be developed in a home campaign - this is not something we're equipped to deal with.
Also, as a final note, Edges and Flaws are OPTIONAL, and we do not use any optional rules in order to keep things simple...they are NOT part of the core rules, as many people seem to think.
As for bringing in newbies, well, to be honest, this campaign is part of the marketing strategy for FanPro, just as the RPGA and its games is a marketing ploy for Wizards of the Coast. The point is to keep interest in the game, and therefore attract new blood, who will purchase more books. For those that already are involved in Shadowrun, it is designed to keep their interest level high and continue to play the game, rather than move on to something else - hopefully they will continue to buy product as well. Some people would love to continue to play Shadowrun, but cannot because of geographical limitations, finances, or other reasons - this allows them to continue to participate as well.
While the adventures will be available to be ordered and played with your home group, it is NOT a home campaign - as has been mentioned, Edges and Flaws are, for the most part, something that can provide adventure hooks for your GM and can be developed in a home campaign - this is not something we're equipped to deal with.
Also, as a final note, Edges and Flaws are OPTIONAL, and we do not use any optional rules in order to keep things simple...they are NOT part of the core rules, as many people seem to think.
oh, and i forgot to add...
| QUOTE |
| Im getting the sense that YOU personally don't like the options or have had bad experiences with people abusing the edges and flaws. |
when i ran my home campaign, i *gasp* used the point system AND edges and flaws... but not some of the metavariants - drow elves were just a little too far...
Hmmm...you mentioned SURGE, Bitty ol' pal! Are the SURGE effects from Year of the Comet allowed or were you saying that SURGE will happen over the course of the 2 year campaign? If so, I assume it must be equal "edge and flaw" type...no "Hey, I rolled a 6 for advantageous SURGEs and a 1 for detrimental SURGEs. Cool."
SURGE is not allowed during character creation...i was implying that it might occur during the campaign....
We had a scenario in VS that provided for characters to undergo SURGE effects, and yes, it was random - we modified the tables somewhat. The character would make the Essence roll, and for every success, they would receive one random positive and one random negative effect. we did not use the point system...however, with a few exceptions, most of the effects (remember we modified the tables by taking some entries out) were only worth 1 or 2 points, and so they pretty much balanced themselves out...we had also added some of the Edges/Flaws into the SURGE table, such as Night Vision.
my point is that it is something that comes through during game play, on a rare basis, like finding a delta clinic. who knows when a character is going to end up getting wonked on the head and ends up waking up with amnesia - or a photographic memory (or both!).
We had a scenario in VS that provided for characters to undergo SURGE effects, and yes, it was random - we modified the tables somewhat. The character would make the Essence roll, and for every success, they would receive one random positive and one random negative effect. we did not use the point system...however, with a few exceptions, most of the effects (remember we modified the tables by taking some entries out) were only worth 1 or 2 points, and so they pretty much balanced themselves out...we had also added some of the Edges/Flaws into the SURGE table, such as Night Vision.
my point is that it is something that comes through during game play, on a rare basis, like finding a delta clinic. who knows when a character is going to end up getting wonked on the head and ends up waking up with amnesia - or a photographic memory (or both!).
As a tactical measure I'd suggest it's best to try - or be seen to be trying, at least 
- to allow as many of the rule variants as possible, since this is a vehicle to push SR stuff in much more ways than VS was. If used properly and in the correct spirit then the edges and flaws allow so much more character 'life' than the base rules.
It'd be worthwhile at the very least to see how hard it would be to zip through the list and checklist the available edges and flaws, and impose a limit - say no more than 5 points of edges or flaws possibly - to keep things playable. If you allow the point buy system - which I think is more elegant than the priority method - then edges and flaws don't need to balance anyway.
- to allow as many of the rule variants as possible, since this is a vehicle to push SR stuff in much more ways than VS was. If used properly and in the correct spirit then the edges and flaws allow so much more character 'life' than the base rules.It'd be worthwhile at the very least to see how hard it would be to zip through the list and checklist the available edges and flaws, and impose a limit - say no more than 5 points of edges or flaws possibly - to keep things playable. If you allow the point buy system - which I think is more elegant than the priority method - then edges and flaws don't need to balance anyway.
The following flaws would probably be inappropriate because of logistics (GMs not being able to exploit them properly, or the flaws not being sufficiently easy to organize or for balance reasons):
Incompetence
Allergy
Bio-Rejection
Borrowed Time
Amnesia
Flashbacks
Compulsive
Phobia
Sea Legs
Sea Madness
Vindictive
Total Pacifist
Dependant
Dark Secret
Day Job
Distinctive Style
Extra Enemy
Liar
Scorched
Cranial Bomb
Hunted
Mysterious Cyberware
Out of 59 flaws (counting Matrix Addiction) you have 22 which you couldn't really use. How special would characters be when they're picking from the same 37 flaws for everyone? Won't you run into the same character flaws over and over and over?
Incompetence
Allergy
Bio-Rejection
Borrowed Time
Amnesia
Flashbacks
Compulsive
Phobia
Sea Legs
Sea Madness
Vindictive
Total Pacifist
Dependant
Dark Secret
Day Job
Distinctive Style
Extra Enemy
Liar
Scorched
Cranial Bomb
Hunted
Mysterious Cyberware
Out of 59 flaws (counting Matrix Addiction) you have 22 which you couldn't really use. How special would characters be when they're picking from the same 37 flaws for everyone? Won't you run into the same character flaws over and over and over?
OH MY GOD!!! Someone gets it!!!
seriously, yes, this was one of the primary reasons...i mean, really, if you aren't going to be able to use half of something, why confuse the issue by adding the other half?? I will actually post all the edges/flaws that i have a problem with...next post
seriously, yes, this was one of the primary reasons...i mean, really, if you aren't going to be able to use half of something, why confuse the issue by adding the other half?? I will actually post all the edges/flaws that i have a problem with...next post
EDGES/FLAWS that present a problem, based on experience through the VS system and in discussion with other GMs, online games, MUDs, etc...this is just a sampling and not an all inclusive listing...
Aptitude/Incompetence - This is one of the problem ones...even though it says "It is strongly recommended that the gamemaster consider carefully before allowing any player character to take an Aptitude in any Combat, Magical, or Computer skill, as these can easily disrupt the balance of a game." and we specified that on the website, I was constantly seeing characters with an Aptitude: Sorcery Edge. Aptitude should only be taken once (you can take Incompetent as often as desired, but see further). Remember that this is Edges and Flaws. Having a hermetic mage take an Incompentence in Computer/Decking is hardly a flaw, nor is an Incompetence in ANY knowledge skill or language a Flaw. These must be for ACTIVE skills, and must be somewhat relevant to the character. A mage is rarely, if ever, asked to deck, so Computer should not be used as an Incompetence Flaw. However, a mage is often asked to use Stealth - should this be available as a Flaw? What about the mage that just sustains or locks down a Stealth spell to counteract his Flaw?? it is no longer a Flaw at this point. About the only thing i can think of for a Flaw for a mage would be a Combat skill. For the Edge, there's not much choice left except for Physical, Social, or B/R skills... I'd just soon outlaw this combo.
Home Ground - As it states, gamemasters should approve all Home Grounds...It is something I don't want to mess with. Too hard to administrate.
Allergy - BOY, is this one munchkined!!! I don't know how many street samurai i've seen with an allergy to orichalcum!!!
Blind - As mentioned, this does not affect someone from rigging or decking if they only have nerve damage, not brain damage. therefore, i've seen one or two people that take this flaw and then mount a microcamcorder or two on themselves and have them wired into their brains with a head deck...so they can pay some cheap essence costs to get rid of the flaw, and actually have vision with add-on capabilities such as 360 vision, thermo, peek around corners (just take the camera and hold it around a corner), or other such stuff...
Borrowed Time - GMs are reluctant to kill characters sometimes, because they're afraid that the players will not like them or the game they ran...therefore, players who know this will take this flaw. Also, the GM is supposed to roll 3D6 to determine how many months the character has to live. You're going to follow what the player writes down? what would be needed is something like roll 1D6 for each scenario played - if a 1 is rolled, the character dies at the end of the scenario, but that of course violates the "home rule" goal...
Deaf - see Blind
Paraplegic - need i go into this? Fine for a home game, where the GM can plan for stuff, but we can't remember to write in stuff for a wheelie guy all to time
Quadriplegic - See above - the whole point is to play as a team...this would be very hard to work, at least from a campaign standpoint, and does not engender team play.
Amnesia - Here is another one...how can you expect a new GM every time to control your character with total amnesia??
Combat Monster - a lot of players take this flaw, along with Vindictive. We are trying to engender an atmosphere for the "perfect shadowrun" - no one knows that you were even there or that you took anything until you are long gone. it is hard to do that if one or two people on your team feel the need to kill everyone they come across. this becomes, in the mind of these players, a "license to kill". Gee, Mr. GM, i'm a combat monster, i just HAVE to attack those guards - i'm forced to do it by my Flaw!
Common Sense - Actually, this should be a REQUIRED feature of every character!
Compulsive - Since it is a variable value, the player really ends up deciding...of course they are going to make it a -3 or more!
Flashbacks - Triggers have to be determined at character creation, in concert with a GM. for home use, this is fine, but having a different GM for each scenario makes this difficult, and, like the Hunted Flaw, something that has to be reviewed and worked into a scenario that is only 3.5 hours long...it just won't get used enough to warrant the -4 points.
Phobia - As with Allergy, this is abused quite easily. it is also another Flaw that the GM must try to work into a scenario such as Flashbacks and Hunted.
Sea Legs - I've seen this one abused as well. The player just buys a boat and has it docked somewhere in Seattle - It could even be on a lake, it doesn't specify the ocean, only water. then, every night, the character just sleeps on his boat - it may NEVER leave the dock, and technically, this satisfies the Flaw's requirement of "being on the water".
Sea Madness - even though it says this Flaw should only be taken by characters that will spend time on the water, it is sometimes taken. Oh, but my character USED to be a pirate, it's in my background, and so I have this Flaw...
Total Pacifist - So as to expose the characters to many types of missions, and to satiate the bloodlust of some of the players, we end up having wetwork missions from time to time. Characters with this Flaw would have a hard time rationalizing why they were chosen for such a mission, and may even refuse - now that player has nothing to do for 4 hours...
Vindictive - the "license to kill" Flaw...But Mr. GM, he looked at me funny, now i have to kill him! My Klingon honor demands it!!!
Connected - too broad and open to interpretation. With a home GM, this could be worked out...with a campaign, the player could choose the one type of merchandise to be "electronics" or "weapons"...too broad.
Dark Secret - Supposed to occur every two or three gaming sessions...how many sessions has it been? are you the lucky GM that now has to work this into the 4 hour scenario? Oh and don't forget the other players that are Hunted, have Flashbacks, or Phobias!!
Day Job - the problem with this is that, especially for the -3 Flaw, it pretty much requires you to have a legal SIN. this is totally contrary to the setting of the campaign, where everyone is SINless, having to have thier pasts erased to escape the authorities or other forces.
Dependent - variable, too open to interpretation...the player would have to set the value. And, once again, this has to be figured into a scenario somehow, or it is not a Flaw.
Extra Enemy - enemies are determined through the storyline - not determined by the player.
Friends in High Places - Yes, there are characters out there that have the Governor of Seattle or the head of LoneStar as a Contact...
Hung Out To Dry - this is taken usually by a character that has a Charisma of 1, and doesn't want to have to do any Legwork or deal with Contacts...all they need are the other team members to buy stuff for him.
Bad Karma - This turns out to be a freebie, as some players want to make sure that their character does not earn Karma too fast so that they won't have to retire him...the problem with this concept is that we base the game on TOTAL GOOD KARMA, and not Karma Pool...
Cranial Bomb - Another freebie like Borrowed Time...the player is betting on the fact that the GM won't just arbitrarily want to kill a character...This is a Flaw that is supposed to be worked into the campaign history for a home campaign when the character is first created.
Hunted - This, like others, are hard to manage because the scenarios are written without knowing any thing about the characters. If you become hunted, it is through NPC interaction in the game, not something that was arbitrarily decided at character creation. The flaw is intended to give your GM ideas and adventure hooks for when things need to be done to motivate your character. We do this through the scenarios.
Mysterious Cyberware - pretty similar to many of the other Flaws which really only work in a home campaign. it is too nebulous, and you are depending on the GM that has never worked with the character/player before to come up with a mysterious piece of cyberware should it be detected..then pick replacement Flaws to make up the points. this will just eat up precious time during the short time slot...
Pirate Family - not appropriate in a standard campaign, this Flaw is for use for those campaigns that are going to move around alot, especially ship based teams...
Aptitude/Incompetence - This is one of the problem ones...even though it says "It is strongly recommended that the gamemaster consider carefully before allowing any player character to take an Aptitude in any Combat, Magical, or Computer skill, as these can easily disrupt the balance of a game." and we specified that on the website, I was constantly seeing characters with an Aptitude: Sorcery Edge. Aptitude should only be taken once (you can take Incompetent as often as desired, but see further). Remember that this is Edges and Flaws. Having a hermetic mage take an Incompentence in Computer/Decking is hardly a flaw, nor is an Incompetence in ANY knowledge skill or language a Flaw. These must be for ACTIVE skills, and must be somewhat relevant to the character. A mage is rarely, if ever, asked to deck, so Computer should not be used as an Incompetence Flaw. However, a mage is often asked to use Stealth - should this be available as a Flaw? What about the mage that just sustains or locks down a Stealth spell to counteract his Flaw?? it is no longer a Flaw at this point. About the only thing i can think of for a Flaw for a mage would be a Combat skill. For the Edge, there's not much choice left except for Physical, Social, or B/R skills... I'd just soon outlaw this combo.
Home Ground - As it states, gamemasters should approve all Home Grounds...It is something I don't want to mess with. Too hard to administrate.
Allergy - BOY, is this one munchkined!!! I don't know how many street samurai i've seen with an allergy to orichalcum!!!
Blind - As mentioned, this does not affect someone from rigging or decking if they only have nerve damage, not brain damage. therefore, i've seen one or two people that take this flaw and then mount a microcamcorder or two on themselves and have them wired into their brains with a head deck...so they can pay some cheap essence costs to get rid of the flaw, and actually have vision with add-on capabilities such as 360 vision, thermo, peek around corners (just take the camera and hold it around a corner), or other such stuff...
Borrowed Time - GMs are reluctant to kill characters sometimes, because they're afraid that the players will not like them or the game they ran...therefore, players who know this will take this flaw. Also, the GM is supposed to roll 3D6 to determine how many months the character has to live. You're going to follow what the player writes down? what would be needed is something like roll 1D6 for each scenario played - if a 1 is rolled, the character dies at the end of the scenario, but that of course violates the "home rule" goal...
Deaf - see Blind
Paraplegic - need i go into this? Fine for a home game, where the GM can plan for stuff, but we can't remember to write in stuff for a wheelie guy all to time
Quadriplegic - See above - the whole point is to play as a team...this would be very hard to work, at least from a campaign standpoint, and does not engender team play.
Amnesia - Here is another one...how can you expect a new GM every time to control your character with total amnesia??
Combat Monster - a lot of players take this flaw, along with Vindictive. We are trying to engender an atmosphere for the "perfect shadowrun" - no one knows that you were even there or that you took anything until you are long gone. it is hard to do that if one or two people on your team feel the need to kill everyone they come across. this becomes, in the mind of these players, a "license to kill". Gee, Mr. GM, i'm a combat monster, i just HAVE to attack those guards - i'm forced to do it by my Flaw!
Common Sense - Actually, this should be a REQUIRED feature of every character!
Compulsive - Since it is a variable value, the player really ends up deciding...of course they are going to make it a -3 or more!
Flashbacks - Triggers have to be determined at character creation, in concert with a GM. for home use, this is fine, but having a different GM for each scenario makes this difficult, and, like the Hunted Flaw, something that has to be reviewed and worked into a scenario that is only 3.5 hours long...it just won't get used enough to warrant the -4 points.
Phobia - As with Allergy, this is abused quite easily. it is also another Flaw that the GM must try to work into a scenario such as Flashbacks and Hunted.
Sea Legs - I've seen this one abused as well. The player just buys a boat and has it docked somewhere in Seattle - It could even be on a lake, it doesn't specify the ocean, only water. then, every night, the character just sleeps on his boat - it may NEVER leave the dock, and technically, this satisfies the Flaw's requirement of "being on the water".
Sea Madness - even though it says this Flaw should only be taken by characters that will spend time on the water, it is sometimes taken. Oh, but my character USED to be a pirate, it's in my background, and so I have this Flaw...
Total Pacifist - So as to expose the characters to many types of missions, and to satiate the bloodlust of some of the players, we end up having wetwork missions from time to time. Characters with this Flaw would have a hard time rationalizing why they were chosen for such a mission, and may even refuse - now that player has nothing to do for 4 hours...
Vindictive - the "license to kill" Flaw...But Mr. GM, he looked at me funny, now i have to kill him! My Klingon honor demands it!!!
Connected - too broad and open to interpretation. With a home GM, this could be worked out...with a campaign, the player could choose the one type of merchandise to be "electronics" or "weapons"...too broad.
Dark Secret - Supposed to occur every two or three gaming sessions...how many sessions has it been? are you the lucky GM that now has to work this into the 4 hour scenario? Oh and don't forget the other players that are Hunted, have Flashbacks, or Phobias!!
Day Job - the problem with this is that, especially for the -3 Flaw, it pretty much requires you to have a legal SIN. this is totally contrary to the setting of the campaign, where everyone is SINless, having to have thier pasts erased to escape the authorities or other forces.
Dependent - variable, too open to interpretation...the player would have to set the value. And, once again, this has to be figured into a scenario somehow, or it is not a Flaw.
Extra Enemy - enemies are determined through the storyline - not determined by the player.
Friends in High Places - Yes, there are characters out there that have the Governor of Seattle or the head of LoneStar as a Contact...
Hung Out To Dry - this is taken usually by a character that has a Charisma of 1, and doesn't want to have to do any Legwork or deal with Contacts...all they need are the other team members to buy stuff for him.
Bad Karma - This turns out to be a freebie, as some players want to make sure that their character does not earn Karma too fast so that they won't have to retire him...the problem with this concept is that we base the game on TOTAL GOOD KARMA, and not Karma Pool...
Cranial Bomb - Another freebie like Borrowed Time...the player is betting on the fact that the GM won't just arbitrarily want to kill a character...This is a Flaw that is supposed to be worked into the campaign history for a home campaign when the character is first created.
Hunted - This, like others, are hard to manage because the scenarios are written without knowing any thing about the characters. If you become hunted, it is through NPC interaction in the game, not something that was arbitrarily decided at character creation. The flaw is intended to give your GM ideas and adventure hooks for when things need to be done to motivate your character. We do this through the scenarios.
Mysterious Cyberware - pretty similar to many of the other Flaws which really only work in a home campaign. it is too nebulous, and you are depending on the GM that has never worked with the character/player before to come up with a mysterious piece of cyberware should it be detected..then pick replacement Flaws to make up the points. this will just eat up precious time during the short time slot...
Pirate Family - not appropriate in a standard campaign, this Flaw is for use for those campaigns that are going to move around alot, especially ship based teams...
Point #1. Your game, your rules. I just find it limiting and against the nature of the world Fasa created and Fan Pro inherited. You've disallowed the majority of the factors that make SR enjoyable to me. I prefer characters with depth and originality and both the points system as well as the introduction to edges and flaws to be one of the main reasons I enjoy spending weeks creating characters vs. the 1 hour roll 'em up character gens of other games. No harm though...I don't like your restrictions so I will not participate. Simple as that. I get plenty of play to satisfy my addiction.
Point#2. I HATE HATE HATE people who find things they dislike about a gaming system and then impose dozens of house rules to correct what they see as flaws. I was involved in two such games...we ended up calling those games Jason Run and Shadow Russ. If you are running your game you can make your rules, but since this is a FanPro sponsored game, you might want to be careful about changing or excluding cannon material.
That brings me to my final point. (warning..rant impending)
Point#3. As an official spokesperson of FanPro by running this official gaming program, you should be more careful before asserting your house rules on the system. You have your right to opinions on the edges and flaws offered in the book, but to take it to this forum is not very business-savvy. You are, in effect, stating to anyone reading that the Shadowrun Companion is a bad book to purchase and tends to throw games into the abhorred "munchkin" category.
Wise up, munchkin's are munchkins regardless of what game or what books you are playing with. You cannot and should not punish good gamers because of fear over bad gamers. SR is one of the games I feel that is very well balanced in it's rules and I, as a GM (unofficially AND officially) always honor any ruling that can be cited in a current 3rd edition source book. ANY SOURCE BOOK.
By making these limitations, you are in essence stating that they are poorly written to allow bad gaming. If you had simply stated that you only want to use 3 main books to keep it simple for newbies, then fine. That I can understand. For you to allow all 3rd ed. books but the SR Companion because it's too munchkiny or difficult to GM, is to put a very negative spin on a book that I think adds wonderful dimension to the game and which, Im sure, FanPro would LIKE to sell to their customers, both new and old.
Point#2. I HATE HATE HATE people who find things they dislike about a gaming system and then impose dozens of house rules to correct what they see as flaws. I was involved in two such games...we ended up calling those games Jason Run and Shadow Russ. If you are running your game you can make your rules, but since this is a FanPro sponsored game, you might want to be careful about changing or excluding cannon material.
That brings me to my final point. (warning..rant impending)
Point#3. As an official spokesperson of FanPro by running this official gaming program, you should be more careful before asserting your house rules on the system. You have your right to opinions on the edges and flaws offered in the book, but to take it to this forum is not very business-savvy. You are, in effect, stating to anyone reading that the Shadowrun Companion is a bad book to purchase and tends to throw games into the abhorred "munchkin" category.
Wise up, munchkin's are munchkins regardless of what game or what books you are playing with. You cannot and should not punish good gamers because of fear over bad gamers. SR is one of the games I feel that is very well balanced in it's rules and I, as a GM (unofficially AND officially) always honor any ruling that can be cited in a current 3rd edition source book. ANY SOURCE BOOK.
By making these limitations, you are in essence stating that they are poorly written to allow bad gaming. If you had simply stated that you only want to use 3 main books to keep it simple for newbies, then fine. That I can understand. For you to allow all 3rd ed. books but the SR Companion because it's too munchkiny or difficult to GM, is to put a very negative spin on a book that I think adds wonderful dimension to the game and which, Im sure, FanPro would LIKE to sell to their customers, both new and old.
i'm not asserting any house rules - in fact, we're trying to eliminate them by sticking to the core rules...
when you get down to it, as i've stated before, the Edges/Flaws system is optional - it is not part of the core rules system.
and, i have stated that the Shadowrun Companion is a valuable book to have for the background material it provides. the beginning of the book is, however, all about optional ways to generate characters, and extra stuff you can do to make your campaign "different". I agree that the book adds to the game, but i'm sorry to concede any points that using such rules would be hard to administrate in the type of campaign we're running. we experienced these growing pains already, and debated the pros/cons of edges/flaws till we were blue in the face.
i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. i only hope that you don't impose your views about the campaign on others - let them read this forum and/or try out the campaign for themselves and let them decide...
when you get down to it, as i've stated before, the Edges/Flaws system is optional - it is not part of the core rules system.
and, i have stated that the Shadowrun Companion is a valuable book to have for the background material it provides. the beginning of the book is, however, all about optional ways to generate characters, and extra stuff you can do to make your campaign "different". I agree that the book adds to the game, but i'm sorry to concede any points that using such rules would be hard to administrate in the type of campaign we're running. we experienced these growing pains already, and debated the pros/cons of edges/flaws till we were blue in the face.
i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. i only hope that you don't impose your views about the campaign on others - let them read this forum and/or try out the campaign for themselves and let them decide...
| QUOTE (Blitz) |
| Point #1. Your game, your rules. I just find it limiting and against the nature of the world Fasa created and Fan Pro inherited. You've disallowed the majority of the factors that make SR enjoyable to me. I prefer characters with depth and originality |
Characters can still have depth and originality - choose a load of flaws, but then just ignore the build points you would get for them.
Want an ex-wife and daughter fine, just don't take the points for the Dependent flaw.
Want a phobia of spiders? Take it and roleplay it if the situation arises - but in case that situation never arises you don't take the points for it.
Edges a little harder in that they are something you buy, however as has been said many edges can be simulated with equipment or skills.
Want the Perceptive edge? Take the Awareness specialisation of Stealth as a complementary skill (not quite the same but close).
Want a photographic memory - just take really, really extensive and detailed notes
Want a College Education - take a load of appropriate Knowledge skills
Want the human looking edge? Pay for lots of cosmetic surgery and buy a higher Charisma attribute if you're an ork to offset the racial reduction.
Want friends abroad - buy lots of contacts and just say they live in England.
Oh and I don't think Bitrunner is saying that all the edges and flaws are munchkinous, but rather that many are not appropriate for games desoigned to be run in 4 hour slots, with a continually changing GM and players, with pre-written scenarios not tailored to the PCs (though some edges and flaws can obviously be abused).
One question - before the Shadowrun Companion was produced, did you not want to play Shadowrun?
| QUOTE (DigitalMage) |
| Characters can still have depth and originality - choose a load of flaws, but then just ignore the build points you would get for them. |
I agree. While I think in every way; speed, ease of use, adaptability, the Point System is superior to the Priority System, edges and flaws as a game mechanic are something that are only useful for campaign play with consistent GMing.
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| ...I think in every way; speed, ease of use, adaptability, the Point System is superior to the Priority System... |
I agree on those points, but there is one area where the Priority System does outshine the point system. That is, of course, the speed and ease of checking a character to make sure it is built properly. Under the priority system, you can quickly tell if a character is right or wrong (or at least if you suspect it enough to look it over in detail) by a simple glance.
Of course, the same could be done with the point-based system by using a special character sheet, a "build sheet" or something along those lines where you could note how many points you spent on each section and do tallies. In fact, that kind of thing would be even better than the Priority system.
Possibly, you could make the statement "Characters are generally built on the Priority System. Players who wish to build a character with the points system may do so with 12x points by filling out a Point Based Character Generation Tally sheet. This sheet must be with the character at all times and characters without one will be required to conform to the Priority based character generation system."
Simply require players to download and print the PDF of the file (or have them available at cons along with record sheets and char gen guidelines) to have the character. You could quickly tell how many points were spent on what, and even see what was bought arrayed before you. I'll do a mockup and post it somewhere in a bit.
Here is a mockup of a sheet which could be used for the aforementioned purpose. It does nothing to address issues of munchkinized characters, but it (or something similar) would help make it easier to check characters over.
[edit]It looks horrible without the SR fonts installed (France in particular)
[/edit]
[edit]It looks horrible without the SR fonts installed (France in particular)
[/edit]
I'll have to agree with the comment about taking flaws without taking the points for the flaws.
If you're all fired insistant on doing the role-play thing, is it such a burden that you don't get a few edge points for being a roleplayer? Personally, I'd be vaguely insulted if someone felt the need to "pay me off" for roleplaying.
I played a paraplegic character in VS. I took no points for it. I had a blast playing the character.
If you're all fired insistant on doing the role-play thing, is it such a burden that you don't get a few edge points for being a roleplayer? Personally, I'd be vaguely insulted if someone felt the need to "pay me off" for roleplaying.
I played a paraplegic character in VS. I took no points for it. I had a blast playing the character.
| QUOTE |
| Point #1. Your game, your rules. I just find it limiting and against the nature of the world Fasa created and Fan Pro inherited. You've disallowed the majority of the factors that make SR enjoyable to me. |
I see. Well, as someone asked before, did you happen to enjoy Shadowrun before they released the Companion? Was it Edges & Flaws that suddenly changed Shadowrun into a whole new gaming experience for you? Because I have to say, Edges & Flaws seemed to me to be a sop to the munchkins who wanted that little extra boost to give them the edge over the opposition.
| QUOTE |
| I prefer characters with depth and originality and both the points system as well as the introduction to edges and flaws to be one of the main reasons I enjoy spending weeks creating characters vs. the 1 hour roll 'em up character gens of other games. |
And edges & flaws, and the point-based system, give depth and originality? I always thought that came from choosing a unique concept and giving it enough depth and flavor that the character's motivations and personalities were evident in the player's roleplaying. The whole '30 questions' thing, when gone through, tended not to be enough... I liked using character development tools like 'Heroes of Tomorrow' to flesh out things like what the character's parents were like, how many siblings he had and what happened to him when he was six. Writing the character's background could take weeks, let alone getting to the actual mechanics of making the character.
| QUOTE |
| Point#3. As an official spokesperson of FanPro by running this official gaming program, you should be more careful before asserting your house rules on the system. You have your right to opinions on the edges and flaws offered in the book, but to take it to this forum is not very business-savvy. You are, in effect, stating to anyone reading that the Shadowrun Companion is a bad book to purchase and tends to throw games into the abhorred "munchkin" category. |
The funny thing is, this is the same point I argued with Bitsy about (on the mailing list) for the inclusion of edges & flaws... but apparently FanPro doesn't have a problem with the exclusion of the book. And why should they? There's plenty of other books which they can use Missions to market to the gaming public. There's the main sourcebooks, of course, and then since Missions will be using (and to a certain extent, defining) the canon plotline, the new sourcebooks (like Shadows of Europe) will be in demand as well. I think the exclusion of just one book might send a certain message... but as the saying goes, any publicity is good publicity. FanPro might get a few sales from people curious as to why the book is disallowed in the Missions setting.
| QUOTE (Deacon @ Sep 29 2003, 04:15 AM) |
| I liked using character development tools like 'Heroes of Tomorrow' to flesh out things like what the character's parents were like, how many siblings he had and what happened to him when he was six. |
What's that?
[edit]Never mind. Two seconds on google gave me the answer.[/edit]
| QUOTE (Blitz) |
| No harm though...I don't like your restrictions so I will not participate. Simple as that. |
OH NO! WHATEVER WILL WE DO?!
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
As an aside: I spend weeks creating characters that don't use edges and flaws, alternate generation systems or any of the other stuff in the companion. Good backgrounds don't write themselves and can get quite lengthy when you figure in the character's family, friends, mentors and anyone else who had a hand in making the character who he is.
now, now...
Blitz is entitled to his opinions...he is fortunate that he has a lot of Shadowrun play opportunities and can be selective in finding the type of game he wants. that is his perrogative (sp?). Many do not have such opportunity, however, and hopefully Shadowrun Missions will be the catalyst they need to get back into the game.
As I said, I only hope that he does not "badmouth" the campaign or force his viewpoint on other potential players - each must make their own choice.
For DigitalMage, Mr.Man, and others, welcome aboard!
Blitz is entitled to his opinions...he is fortunate that he has a lot of Shadowrun play opportunities and can be selective in finding the type of game he wants. that is his perrogative (sp?). Many do not have such opportunity, however, and hopefully Shadowrun Missions will be the catalyst they need to get back into the game.
As I said, I only hope that he does not "badmouth" the campaign or force his viewpoint on other potential players - each must make their own choice.
For DigitalMage, Mr.Man, and others, welcome aboard!
I am looking forward to the online play. When can I submit my char for approval? 
Online Play:
well, i (God willing) may end up moving sometime around the first of the year, and i'm also planning on getting married...so to be honest, the first online game probably won't be until March or April time frame...
i'm currently checking out some of the options, such as OpenRPG, AO-HELL messenger chats, etc...as well as just developing a custom solution...once i get some finalists, we'll probably put up a poll to see what everyone would feel comfortable with...for instance, if i'm still working where i am now, my firewall blocks AOL/AOL Messenger, so that solution would be out...
well, i (God willing) may end up moving sometime around the first of the year, and i'm also planning on getting married...so to be honest, the first online game probably won't be until March or April time frame...
i'm currently checking out some of the options, such as OpenRPG, AO-HELL messenger chats, etc...as well as just developing a custom solution...once i get some finalists, we'll probably put up a poll to see what everyone would feel comfortable with...for instance, if i'm still working where i am now, my firewall blocks AOL/AOL Messenger, so that solution would be out...
Some people have asked about where character creation guidelines would be posted.
All official information will be posted on the Shadowrun website at www.shadowrunrpg.com
I am working with Adam right now on the website - i'm finalizing the info, and Adam is getting ready to make the mods - hopefully this month.
I am also going to try to put something in Games Unplugged magazine, and post information on dumpshock and other online sources...
All official information will be posted on the Shadowrun website at www.shadowrunrpg.com
I am working with Adam right now on the website - i'm finalizing the info, and Adam is getting ready to make the mods - hopefully this month.
I am also going to try to put something in Games Unplugged magazine, and post information on dumpshock and other online sources...
| QUOTE (bitrunner) |
| For DigitalMage, Mr.Man, and others, welcome aboard! |
Thanks!
Have you considered sanctioning what the RPGA calls "classics" within the S:M program? The GMs for many of the independent SR events at GenCon seemed overworked and I'm sure if someone were to provide them with tested, con-sized "modules" complete with characters they wouldn't complain...
OK, not bad. No SR Comp but no biggie.
Still plenty of RP opportunities... I think I'll join...
Still plenty of RP opportunities... I think I'll join...
Moving eh? Now what are the odds of Rich moving close to me so I can bug him? Well, in either case congrats and good luck.
Not quite the subject for an opening post as I had thought, but other than the rumor that WotC dropped VS because Rich would not allow Edges and Flaws I couldn't think of anything to talk about.
Ok it's not really a rumor, just something I thought of when I read the page on what Shadowrun Missions is. Only Rich's friends and other VS players will understand the pains he went through to remove them, some even appreciate it.
Brian
aka: Rouge
"Let the Nuyen earning begin!"
PS: Why does the spell checker have to learn the word 'nuyen' ??
Not quite the subject for an opening post as I had thought, but other than the rumor that WotC dropped VS because Rich would not allow Edges and Flaws I couldn't think of anything to talk about.
Ok it's not really a rumor, just something I thought of when I read the page on what Shadowrun Missions is. Only Rich's friends and other VS players will understand the pains he went through to remove them, some even appreciate it.
Brian
aka: Rouge
"Let the Nuyen earning begin!"
PS: Why does the spell checker have to learn the word 'nuyen' ??
| QUOTE (Mr. Man) |
| Have you considered sanctioning what the RPGA calls "classics" within the S:M program? The GMs for many of the independent SR events at GenCon seemed overworked and I'm sure if someone were to provide them with tested, con-sized "modules" complete with characters they wouldn't complain... |
Since SRMissions is part of the Commandos Program, I'm sure that the independent, stand-alone missions the Commandos already use will be counted for in some way.
@bitrunner
Our group has been utilising the Paltalk program for audio (and video if you have a good enough connection) and text, while using Netmeeting for its whiteboard feature for maps.
At first we had a few problems, with people talking over each other, but once we got used to it we've run 6+ hour games comfortably, with the GM 2,500 kms away.
Gotta love technology.
Our group has been utilising the Paltalk program for audio (and video if you have a good enough connection) and text, while using Netmeeting for its whiteboard feature for maps.
At first we had a few problems, with people talking over each other, but once we got used to it we've run 6+ hour games comfortably, with the GM 2,500 kms away.
Gotta love technology.
Thanks! I'll check into it...
as for the Commandos and Shadowrun Missions:
There is some cross-pollenation there. however, SRM is a separate program - it is the campaign setting. The Commandos are the official outrider program for FanPro, so any arbitrations or signatures by a Commando will be treated as though I myself had made the action. They have the option to run SRM missions just as anyone else, and they will get credit for doing so - but if they run a SR scenario of their own making, it CAN NOT be used with SRM characters. Only scenarios which have passed through the SRM approval process and posted as SRM missions will be counted. Along the same thread, i'll mention once again that you DO NOT have to be a Commando to run SRM events. however, if you are not a Commando, then you will not receive any "bennies" for running the event other than that glowing feeling you get inside by running the game and helping the campaign and giving your players the chance to play and grow (plus anything you can weasel out of a convention staff, such as free admission to the con for running x events, etc)...
as for the Commandos and Shadowrun Missions:
There is some cross-pollenation there. however, SRM is a separate program - it is the campaign setting. The Commandos are the official outrider program for FanPro, so any arbitrations or signatures by a Commando will be treated as though I myself had made the action. They have the option to run SRM missions just as anyone else, and they will get credit for doing so - but if they run a SR scenario of their own making, it CAN NOT be used with SRM characters. Only scenarios which have passed through the SRM approval process and posted as SRM missions will be counted. Along the same thread, i'll mention once again that you DO NOT have to be a Commando to run SRM events. however, if you are not a Commando, then you will not receive any "bennies" for running the event other than that glowing feeling you get inside by running the game and helping the campaign and giving your players the chance to play and grow (plus anything you can weasel out of a convention staff, such as free admission to the con for running x events, etc)...
I just want some clarity on one question about these official Shadowrun Missions scenarios. Are these to be made available free of charge (i.e. as pdf files, or whatever) to people that cannot attend the conventions?
I'll probably sign on, as I'm a Shadowrun addict, but add my name to the list of those griping about the exclusion of SRComp. Perhaps it's just psychological, but characters created with the priority system have always seemed too cookie-cutter to me; "oh, you're another character with A resources, B attributes, C skills. Go stand in line with the others." (rearrange to taste).
That and I have a long-standing personal love for the 25-point ¥650,000 total
As for uniqueness in character concept, so you make your backstory unique. That's great. That's not going to come out in a four-hour session with people you've never met. In my experience one-shot games get reduced to their most basic elements; your characters are unique because of what they are and what they can do, not who they are. So your streetsam is really a streetsam with a conscience who helps out at the homeless shelter after-hours; unless they roleplay Total Pacifist (and thus create the same problems you complain about when you forbid the flaw), they're just Kid Stealth without the cool legs, as far as anyone's concerned.
Anyway, I would whine and gripe some more, but it's not going to get changed and I'm on board anyway, so I'll be content with this much.
~J
Edit: Keep in mind when investigating alternative options for online gaming that some of us don't use Windows. While you may or may not have to support, say, OS/2, I'd certainly recommend Mac and Linux friendliness, for what my recommendations are worth.
That and I have a long-standing personal love for the 25-point ¥650,000 total
As for uniqueness in character concept, so you make your backstory unique. That's great. That's not going to come out in a four-hour session with people you've never met. In my experience one-shot games get reduced to their most basic elements; your characters are unique because of what they are and what they can do, not who they are. So your streetsam is really a streetsam with a conscience who helps out at the homeless shelter after-hours; unless they roleplay Total Pacifist (and thus create the same problems you complain about when you forbid the flaw), they're just Kid Stealth without the cool legs, as far as anyone's concerned.
Anyway, I would whine and gripe some more, but it's not going to get changed and I'm on board anyway, so I'll be content with this much.
~J
Edit: Keep in mind when investigating alternative options for online gaming that some of us don't use Windows. While you may or may not have to support, say, OS/2, I'd certainly recommend Mac and Linux friendliness, for what my recommendations are worth.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I'll probably sign on, as I'm a Shadowrun addict, but add my name to the list of those griping about the exclusion of SRComp. Perhaps it's just psychological, but characters created with the priority system have always seemed too cookie-cutter to me; " |
Although I use the Build Point method exclusively myself, I can't agree that the Priority System leads to Cookie Cutter characters. I mean this isn't Classes we're talking about a player could spend those skill points on any type of skills, at any level, and the resources can be used to buy loads of stuff from SOTA cyber to tricked out and rigged vehicles, and those Attribute points cna be allocated in any number of ways.
If you think that it is only Edges and Flaws that bring uniqueness to a character you are obviously missing out on the variety that can stem from the restof the system.
Bitrunner - will we get a chance to look at the SR:M writer guidelines anytime soon. As a Commando I have written several scenarios and in future if I am to write anymore I would like to also make them SR:M compatible so that I could submit them for approval.
Cheers!
OK, a couple of answers here:
Cost: None - all scenarios will be free of charge and will be PDFs available for download. Also remember that these scenarios CAN be played at home - there are just a few changes in accounting, such as Commandos cannot claim home games for credit.
Platforms: hey - i'm a computer geek - i still have a C-64 and an Apple IIe! That's one of the reasons why AOL IM is winning right now - it is for all 3 major OSs (including cell phones!), has built in dicebot, and lots of people already know how to use it and have done online games with it...
Guidelines: i'm finishing them up now, along with guidelines for GMs and Event organizers. They will be posted to the web when i finish them and i can get with Adam to post them - he's waiting on me right now
Cost: None - all scenarios will be free of charge and will be PDFs available for download. Also remember that these scenarios CAN be played at home - there are just a few changes in accounting, such as Commandos cannot claim home games for credit.
Platforms: hey - i'm a computer geek - i still have a C-64 and an Apple IIe! That's one of the reasons why AOL IM is winning right now - it is for all 3 major OSs (including cell phones!), has built in dicebot, and lots of people already know how to use it and have done online games with it...
Guidelines: i'm finishing them up now, along with guidelines for GMs and Event organizers. They will be posted to the web when i finish them and i can get with Adam to post them - he's waiting on me right now
| QUOTE (bitrunner @ Nov 5 2003, 12:07 AM) |
| Cost: None - all scenarios will be free of charge and will be PDFs available for download. Also remember that these scenarios CAN be played at home - there are just a few changes in accounting, such as Commandos cannot claim home games for credit. |
Thanks for the answer. These will be available for d/l on shadowrunrpg.com?
And a few more...
Am I correct in my thinking that even if a character only participates in the games at home (as opposed to at an official event), they will still be equally viable and official as those that are run exclusively at conventions? If so, how will this work? How will cheating be discouraged, if not totally prevented? Will there be some kind of central character registry to keep tabs on characters?
What I think bitrunner has been saying is that home games do not count officially for anything.
not really - we're still working things out...
we hope to eventually have a player registration area - the guys over at Commando HQ were excited about doing something, but right now i'm more concerned about getting everything up and running.
we encourage to foster the belief that we're all adults here - if people are going to cheat, they'll find a way to cheat. let's just hope they never sit down to play with me, or when i look at their character and discover that they've been cheating, they'll find that the scenario has been subtly altered with a few 'lasers'...actually, you'd be surprised at the LACK of cheating that will probably occur. at least under VS, there were few actual "cheaters". most had characters that violated the rules because of miscommunications, poor gm-ing, and other things that weren't clearly spelled out...
if people want to run a SRM game at home, that's fine. the point is that only SRM characters can be used. Let's look at it from the various prospectives:
the player: plays a legal SRM character. that character can only be played in SRM games. technically, it is a legal SR character and could be played in any game, but if it is used in other than an SRM game, any karma/loot awarded cannot be imported into the SRM campaign. ie if you just want to use that character to play for "funsies" and not change anything on the character, that's fine...
the GM: the gm can run the SRM games no problem. all the players must be using a legal SRM character. you cannot then write your own scenario and run it with the SRM characters as if it were a legal scenario. if you are a Commando, you do not get credit for running this as an 'event'.
for everyone's edification, Commandos are representatives of FanPro, and receive credit for running events at gaming stores, conventions, and special events. These are public games where they are trying to increase the popularity of the game system (battletech or shadowrun). hosting a game with your four regular players isn't a promotional game - it has to be open to the public and a legitimate event.
we hope to eventually have a player registration area - the guys over at Commando HQ were excited about doing something, but right now i'm more concerned about getting everything up and running.
we encourage to foster the belief that we're all adults here - if people are going to cheat, they'll find a way to cheat. let's just hope they never sit down to play with me, or when i look at their character and discover that they've been cheating, they'll find that the scenario has been subtly altered with a few 'lasers'...actually, you'd be surprised at the LACK of cheating that will probably occur. at least under VS, there were few actual "cheaters". most had characters that violated the rules because of miscommunications, poor gm-ing, and other things that weren't clearly spelled out...
if people want to run a SRM game at home, that's fine. the point is that only SRM characters can be used. Let's look at it from the various prospectives:
the player: plays a legal SRM character. that character can only be played in SRM games. technically, it is a legal SR character and could be played in any game, but if it is used in other than an SRM game, any karma/loot awarded cannot be imported into the SRM campaign. ie if you just want to use that character to play for "funsies" and not change anything on the character, that's fine...
the GM: the gm can run the SRM games no problem. all the players must be using a legal SRM character. you cannot then write your own scenario and run it with the SRM characters as if it were a legal scenario. if you are a Commando, you do not get credit for running this as an 'event'.
for everyone's edification, Commandos are representatives of FanPro, and receive credit for running events at gaming stores, conventions, and special events. These are public games where they are trying to increase the popularity of the game system (battletech or shadowrun). hosting a game with your four regular players isn't a promotional game - it has to be open to the public and a legitimate event.
My point is that, say I start playing with a group that doesn't attend conventions. We make characters according to the SRM guidelines, only pulling them out for use whenever a new SRM scenario is made available. In a few years, I then move to a more convenient locale and start to become a convention regular. Would my (2-year-experienced, but totally legal to SRM standards) character able to be played in those conventions?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.