 murder, who is above the law. |
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 Aug 4 2005, 05:08 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455  |
It is a given that money can buy freedom. It even happens today. But what do you do when the purpotrator is a dragon?
Dragons murder people all the time. Yet there is no punishment. They commit haenous acts of devastation, and no one does anything or even wants too. World governments should have the power to bring dragons down. Is this an oversite? Are dragons just above the law. Are charges ever brought fourth? |
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Aug 4 2005, 05:13 PM
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#2
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Well, the problem mainly stems from this. How exactly do you suppose a dragon is taken into custody if it doesn't feel like going?
How do yo umake it pay the fines? How do you make it show up to court? Apparantly nothing short of a very powerful immortal elf or another great form dragon is powerful enough to match claws with one. Makes it rather difficult to enforce the laws. Just think of them as walking Z-Zones |
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Aug 4 2005, 05:19 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
I think the hardest part of killing a great dragon is getting LOS to it with the appropriate equipment.
I feel that a flight of jets with anti-ship missiles could make short work of any dragon. A dragon is tough when you compare it to a person, car or even tank, but shoot a harpoon or tomahawk at it... |
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Aug 4 2005, 05:20 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Unless they are citizens of a jurisdiction. Then you can have a warrant for their arrest and approach them cautiously. After your next envoy is eaten you can revoke citizenship and start seizing property (at least on paper).
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Aug 4 2005, 05:21 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 22-September 04 From: 9th Circle of Hell Member No.: 6,692 |
Most Dragons don't have a SIN.
Those beings without a SIN legally don't exist and aren't protected by the law. How do you charge someone with murder if they don't exist let alone prosecute them? |
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Aug 4 2005, 05:23 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
Everything starts with a precedent. If they are given rights and priveledges of metahumans, then they should be subject to their law.
You can do many things. Go after them in corporate court. Take their publically known assets. Make them an enemy of the public with a bounty on them. Sooner or later someone will get lucky. With the social and economic changes of 206+ something would play out. This is one of the problems that bugged me about immortal elves. They are above everyone, completely invulnerable. Anyhow for 10-20 million, a few teams will take the run. once they are dead ... assets can be seized to recoup costs, (with a slight profit) after a while after a few dragons get snuffed, they might get the hint. |
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Aug 4 2005, 05:28 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
Are you kidding me? Most runners do not have SINs. When they get caught they are just are not set free because they do not have a SIN. There are rules for prosecuting someone without a SIN.
So what you are saying is I can go to mexico and kill people, and just walk away because I am not a citizen there? |
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Aug 4 2005, 06:03 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Betcha Dunkie had a SIN. Betcha Lofwyr does too. Granted, they're exceptional. Nevertheless, Nyxll is quite right: regardless of an individual's legal status, a nation will take steps to prosecute and punish violent criminals within their jurisdiction. Whether the alleged criminals possess legal identities or not is moot.
Regarding a dragon's power, well... a government (or corp) would step very lightly and probably try to work out some sort of "arrangement" before moving to strict interdiction and punishment. |
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Aug 4 2005, 11:57 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Only if he was asleep. Great dragons aren't terrible because of their physical abilities, they're terrible because of their magical abilities. You could send a team of jets after Lofwyr if you want. Repeated force 25 barriers will take care of any missle or plane. Plus there's the fact that if he wants to, he can just stop being there. You're talking about an individual creature who can match the great ghost dance for power and has thousands of years of practice. Do you really think that if it only took a couple of missles, he'd still be alive? Or Hestaby? |
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Aug 5 2005, 12:06 AM
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#10
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Adult Dragons and Free Spirits have been known to own non-extraterritorial property. They have rights, just not citizenship. Even the SINless have rights. It is simply easier to violate them.
Adult dragons wouldn't be that difficult to bring to justice. Free Spirits would be more difficult, but they can be bound and banished. Great Dragons are another story. Most GDs are avoid blatently flaunting metahuman laws. Those that do would provide a challange for some militaries. However, they can still be killed with the proper application of military force. It just requires a little bit more effort than usual. Assets are another story. Assets can be seized with little difficulty. Non-extrateritorial assets only require a court order. Extrateritorial assets require than and some diplomacy. Unless the Great Dragon liquidates everything into a single certified credstick and personally sits of it, any government can force a dragon to pay a fine. |
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Aug 5 2005, 12:13 AM
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#11
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
You want to declare war on the dragons? You do not understand how powerful dragons are. 1) "Governements should take a firm stand". Who is this "governement" you speak of? The "governement" that had a dragon as president, or the one that has one sitting on the Council of Princes? See the problem? Dragons rule the world. That's all there is to it. No "governement" is going to declare war on them and their assets, since all those governements have dragon influence somewhere in them. 2) A single GD can level a city. Teheran no longer exists because they thought Dragons sucked. Dragons have no reason to be hostile because the populations "accepts" them in society, sorta. They get to play their power games and stuff. If the population suddently stands up and says No to dragons, there is no reason why dragons would not start massively killing everything that stands. I'm not saying they'd win, but the world would be in ashes after that particular war. 3) The other governement: Corporate Court. SK, the most powerful mega corp, is the plaything of a dragon. Aztechnology is also, sorta. They won't move against dagons, same as #1. Need more convincing? |
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Aug 5 2005, 12:30 AM
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#12
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The thing is that Dragons don't like each other very much. If a random GD levels a SK facility will Lofwyr go out of his way to protect that dragon. Frag no. He'll go out of his way to make that dragon dead. There is no dragon union to collectivly bragain for the race. It is every dragon for itself. When their interests coincide they may work together. When they don't, they don't care what happens to each other. When their interests oppose each other then they do not pull punches. |
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Aug 5 2005, 12:46 AM
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#13
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I always figured some GD's were afforded the status of individual nations. Ghostwalker should be at least since he has his own little kingdom in Denver.
If a nation (great dragon) determines that it is in their best interest to "war" upon their neighbors to gain some political advantage, well that is something nations can legally do. |
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Aug 5 2005, 01:21 AM
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#14
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Ignoring the topic of the legality of warfare...
A Greater Dragon should be treated as, I think, a Superpower. They are slayable, but it's going to take great luck, or great skill, not to mention a great deal of slaughter. In other words, not worth it, unless the GD assassinated your premier. |
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Aug 5 2005, 01:23 AM
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#15
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Whoops, Sorry. :P edit: I think the point the original poster was interested in, is that the GD could go ahead and assassinate your premier (if doing so helped it somehow), and basically get away with it. I've got something of a chip on my shoulder for this sort of thing. To me, part of SR is that there are some people who are above the law (and there's nothing you can do about it). However: Often, those who think they're above the law end up falling down and being crushed by it. For some reason this never seems to happen to the GD's and IE's unless another is involved. Maybe it just stems from me not liking any individual of that scale of power pulling the strings in my world...It's like, why even bother anymore? |
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Aug 5 2005, 01:28 AM
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#16
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I dunno. Depends on the premier in question.
I mean, you knock off the premier of, say, uganda or something (I know Uganda no longer exists in 206x+,) and no, they won't be able to do something. You whack the prez of the UCAS, and it's another matter. |
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Aug 5 2005, 01:31 AM
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#17
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Not the way it's represented in SR...
"Oh sure, go ahead, Denver's yours now!" :touched upon in my edit above: |
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Aug 5 2005, 01:55 AM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Yes and no. Most of the ones we know of have wormed their way into positions of major political power, and have used that power to skew the rules in their favour (most obvious eg, The Two Tirs... hmm... sounds like a book in there somewhere...). Those few that haven't taken that route (eg, Harlequin, at least to the best of my knowledge) live like professional ghosts, much in the same way that the top figures in organised crime or professional (as opposed to ideological) terror activities do - sure you could do stuff to them, but you have to find them first. |
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Aug 5 2005, 03:09 AM
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#19
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Considering that Ghostwalker is probably the most powerful living Dragon in terms of raw magical strength and that he had the support of the Draco Foundation and a small army of spirits, turning over Denver wasn't the most unwise decision. It is just one city. What does one city matter in the grand sceme of a nation. Diddly squat, that's what. Let him have Denver. It is less costly than an all out war would be. Besides, the UCAS government likes abandoning cities. Just look at Chicago. Now, if he were to start invading other cities, then there would be an all out war and Ghostwalker would lose. |
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Aug 5 2005, 03:29 AM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Denver wasn't a city. It was representative regions of 5 nations that really wanted to kill each other but knew that whoever made the first move would lose the most. Some representative shows up with a nice little set of conditions on how not to be attacked by a great dragon who will be showing up soon. Interesting, the only criteria are "don't represent Aztlan" and "don't shoot at the dragon." You'd almost have to be an idiot to not accept those terms. Then, once Aztlan was removed (who the other groups hated even more than everyone who is left), the dragon demands to be in charge and offers chunks of the former Aztlan resources as rewards to those who play nice with him.
The only real question is whether Aztlan would've been smacked down if it had been CAS that was the perpetual antagonist in all the meetings and Aztlan had been civil. To restate that hypothetical question for those who haven't read about the council meetings pre-Ghostwalker, "was the decision to crush Aztlan property decided because they had the highest public rejection in those with power or was it determined more from other reasons?" |
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Aug 5 2005, 03:35 AM
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#21
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Thank you, Mr. Chamberlain. |
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Aug 5 2005, 05:15 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
One city has tremendous symbolic value. It sets a hell of a precedent, although arguably the Great Ghost Dance did it first. Or maybe the American Revolution did. Or the Gauls did. Whatever.
The point is, I have to question the assertion that the surrendering of Denver didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. |
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Aug 5 2005, 05:49 AM
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#23
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Yeah. One city's no big deal.
Heck, we should'a given New York to the terrorists! |
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Aug 5 2005, 06:47 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I would say that the high level people in any of the AAA's or maybe even AA could kill citazen of said AAA. I mean Misster Knight makes it legal for him to kill, and then then kills some on who is a citazen in his nation. Who is going to stop him?
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Aug 5 2005, 07:10 AM
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#25
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If the terrorists asked politely and promised not to let the big bad Injuns don't invade and deport all white people continent back to Europe then it would have been a wise decision, indeed. |
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