 System Failure, What's the status? |
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 Aug 10 2005, 06:54 AM
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#51
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Uncle Fisty  Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928  |
well.... at least it would be a suprise. "Happy Gencon day!"
.... maybe not... |
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Aug 10 2005, 12:58 PM
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#52
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, one thing to remember is that release dates are not really intended for the general public. They are intended for the book trade. The public gets them mostly as a side effect. And the book trade doesn't get terribly upset about missed release dates, so the general standard (at least as far as I'm aware) is "I know you can't really judge if this date will be accurate this far in advance, but gimme something we can work with." The fans just tend to take the dates as gospel far more than anyone else does. And then, of course, there are all the inevitable speedbumps during development. Of which there were many. Sometimes when I get the projected release dates, I see them as realistic, sometimes I don't. I know that when I first saw the projected release dates for SoA, SoLA, and System Failure, I didn't think it'd be a problem at all. Of course, I didn't know about SR4 at that time. As well as other problems that would crop up.
Welcome to the way the print RPG industry works, especially with the smaller studios. I don't like it, I never have, and I often ask myself if it can be done better. But it's worked that way as long as I've been a part of it. At least so far I've managed to get paid for everything (though sometimes absurdly late). I think I'm the only person I know who has worked in the industry for awhile who can say that. Also, remember to consider that even if both are at GenCon, doesn't mean both will hit the local stores at the same time. |
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Aug 10 2005, 01:08 PM
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#53
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
An industry example, Pinnacle made an announcement on their website 4 weeks before they planned to release the new edition of Deadlands, their "flagship" product. The document will be done and on hand to be read, they just won't have the retail copies back from the printers in time to sell.
07.26.05 Deadlands Delay Regrettably, my first big announcement is a disappointing one. We hoped to get Deadlands to you by GenCon. It isn't going to happen. As our flagship brand, Deadlands means a lot to us and everyone's expectations are high, so we have to make it as good as it can be. The product is superb, but it is a big book and there is a lot to get right before we release it. Unfortunately, this means there is no way we can have it back in time to show it at Gen Con. We will have display copies for those who want to get a sneak preview of the book, and a special taster scenario to whet your appetites for the main course, so drop by and check out what the wait has been all about. |
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Aug 10 2005, 01:24 PM
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#54
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Do you have a link for that?
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Aug 10 2005, 01:30 PM
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#55
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yep, that sort of thing is normal in the industry. Another example being the upcoming release of White Wolf's "Mage: the Awakening" (and WW is a larger studio than FanPro, with actual in-house staff).
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Aug 10 2005, 03:55 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Well if that sort of thing is 'normal' for the industry - How come fanpro didn't take that route?
The whole release schedule + Sr4 seems very rushed - to us and to some of the playtesters that have posted these last few months. Sounds to me like these decsions are being made because of $$. I mean if these books are done, then Fanpro just needs to pay to have them printed. They probably only have X dollars to play with and decided that Sr4 would generate more $$ quicker than any source books would. Thus enabling them to turn around and get those other books published. Now, I'm not berating them for making printing descisions becuase of $$, but come on man - they had to have seen the writing on the wall when they first put pen to paper for SR4. Especially taking their track record into account. I realize that all of this is moot at this point - the decisions made, and the trigger pulled. But Shadowrun cannot survive if it is continually run like this. |
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Aug 10 2005, 04:20 PM
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#57
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Shadowrun will survive this and any other glitch that occurs as long as it is not beyond what is considered "normal" in the industry. The hype is tied into the GenCon release, but the sales will be measured over the years, not one week (a glorious week though it may be).
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Aug 10 2005, 04:34 PM
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#58
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
It isn't quite that simple as just paying to have them printed. The writing may be finished, but there's more to do between writing and printing. There's editing and layout. But keep in mind that many of the same freelancers who usually do the editing and layout for the normal product releases (Elissa, Adam, Michelle, etc.) were on the dev team for SR4, doing tons of writing. Not to mention most (if not all of them) don't work for FanPro exclusively. Note the delay with SoA because Adam was swamped with GenCon deadline releases for other companies. Add into that the fact that Shadowrun lost a lot of freelancers in the FASA-->FanPro changeover (including me, I only recently came back after a couple years away) and added a lot of new freelancers that you can't easily put into higher-responsibility roles because they are still relatively unproven.
I absolutely think some better choices could have been made in the management along the way, but there are some very messy realities that can't be avoided easily. |
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Aug 10 2005, 09:28 PM
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#59
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
That's not what you said. You said
You're a published freelancer. You should know better, and the fact that what you wrote and what you meant were about a thousand miles apart from each other makes it so much worse for so many reasons. |
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Aug 10 2005, 11:44 PM
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#60
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Let me see...
You said you had no intention of buying SoA. I said that in that case you were not the market FanPro's aiming at with that book. When someone asked if I was implying that FanPro's only aiming at those who buy all the books, I said no, that it might be that SoA was released before SF because it could sell better. I don't see what you're talking about. By the way, be civil. I don't know you, and I don't know if I want to know you, but I know that going around insulting people is a sure way to be ignored by others. :S |
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Aug 11 2005, 12:20 AM
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#61
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
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Aug 11 2005, 03:54 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
I translated it the same way Jong; that since he was not buying all the books he was not - in your opinion - Fanpros target. Thats how it came across, thats why a few of us got upset. If that's not what you meant, then thats cool. Point is, we are still Fanpros audience - wether we can afford all the books, or if we have to pick and choose. |
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Aug 11 2005, 05:59 AM
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#63
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i am a fan of FanPro's SR3 work.
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Aug 11 2005, 07:47 AM
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#64
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
edit: No, it appears that i am the one lost. :|
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Aug 11 2005, 10:25 AM
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#65
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Personally, as I don't GM a lot in my current group, I'm wondering whether I will buy SF. I am CERTAIN I will buy SoA, though.
Adventure modules are for one member/gaming group, the GM, and him only, in case the group wants to actually use the book, that is. However, background books are for everyone (like rule books). Hence, bigger potential market share. Bigger seller. Will get FanPro the money it needs to produce SF and other low-selling products. Can't see what's inherently wrong with that, other than if you plan to switch to SR4 the second it is shown at GenCon booths, that is. |
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Aug 11 2005, 12:55 PM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,420 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,776 |
I don't plan to switch the second it hits the GenCon booths, but I do plan to switch as soon as I have learned the new system.
Without any idea of when System Failure will be out, my guess is that I will have learned the new system before SF is released. Therefore, I will most likely not be buying it. So back to my original point, by releasing System Failure, which is designed to end the SR3 system, after the SR4 system is out will reduce the already small market for the product. Hence, this decision will almost certainly mean FanPro will either be at a loss on the product, or at most get some miniscule amount of profit. People will buy the Shadows of series books after SR4 is out because they are content books. System Failure's sales were already going to be small, but with it being released after SR4, they will be even smaller and that doesn't leave much of a chance for profit on it. Priority should have been set on System Failure over Shadows of Asia to be release prior to SR4 for the simple fact that there will be less effect on the sale of Shadows of Asia due to the release of SR4. |
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Aug 11 2005, 12:59 PM
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#67
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
<Shrug> I guess I want to own them all...kinda like Pokemon.
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Aug 11 2005, 01:17 PM
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#68
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Ok, I see it now. I didn't mean that, but this what happens when you try short answers. while at work. :talker:
Of course you are. My point, obscure as it might have been, is that SoA has a broader appeal than SF (and some here have already backed this). James said he had no intention at all to buy it, even if he had the money. Thus, he's not what FanPro's looking for when it releases it, right? |
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Aug 11 2005, 01:29 PM
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#69
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
I cannot quite follow that logic. Do you mean you will enforce a switch (out of the blue, mainly) as soon as you have learned the new rules? So your campaign isn't too much into consistency and compliance with the official timeline, I guess? Well, then of course SF isn't for you anyway. I see no reason why you have to switch systems so soon. If SF is out only one month or two after GenCon, who gives? I guess you have your own plotlines to wrap up before switching too (and, I guess, redo all characters or make brand-new ones). *shrug* I for one am certain we will play SF, if only because it is pretty much a follow-up on Brainscan, where we right now are in the finals. Then again, I also know for a fact my group will not switch to SR4 for the forseeable future, not until we have wrapped up the other three major story arcs besides Brainscan, everyone has read into the rules and everyone agrees they are likeable (I think they will be, but I am not the only one whose opinion matters). Hell, we switched from SR2 to SR3 only as late as in 2003!
Sure, it might well sell even worse then. But that doesn't change the bare numbers that SoA would sell better. |
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Aug 11 2005, 01:48 PM
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#70
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
There's something else important to keep in mind. System Failure's format isn't rules-heavy. It's not like, say, Brainscan. There's really no reason a group that has picked up SR4 couldn't also pick up System Failure in the same day and use it.
I mean, sure, the SR4 core book's setting takes place after the events in System Failure. But groups hop around all the time. We've got people here still running RA:S events, hell, people still like to play with Bug City stuff. Even with the Matrix changes, the rules in SR4 support the use of old-style decking, so it's still entirely feasible. Totally honestly here, and I'm not trying to sell the book or anything, if I were a new SR player starting with SR4, I'd pick up System Failure as a starting point for ideas for characters. The events in SF are perfect for explaining why some characters might have been forced into the shadows, where they start their new lives in 2070. |
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Aug 11 2005, 01:49 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
I disagree here. Quite a few gamers won't switch within the next 12-18 month since they'll wait for the necessary sourcebooks to come out. Add in that more than a few groups follow a campaign and need time to work up to 2070 as well as the fact that one of the major markets (Germany) won't get their version of SR4 for another 3-4 month. So I doubt SystemFailure would suffer as much. Birdy |
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Aug 11 2005, 01:56 PM
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#72
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,420 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,776 |
I am not arguing with that. All i am saying is that SoA's sales won't be all that much affected by the release of SR4, while System Failure's sales will be adversely affected, so why not put priority on System Failure being released prior to SR4 instead of SoA? As far as my campaign goes, I have pretty much timed it so that its end would coincide with GenCon to make the switch to SR4 smoothly. If System Failure was out I would be able to run the group through that now and while I am learning SR4. Besides my players have already been talking about wanting to just create new characters for SR4 rather than hassling with converting them. I just would have like to have System Failure to finish out the SR3 campaign and explain the transition to SR4 as I believe it is designed to do. |
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Aug 11 2005, 03:53 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
Even if System Failure is in a format similar to Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, rather than Brainscan, the timeline is being warped. While a sourcebook describing the world (or a subsection thereof) might be revised slightly to account for a later place in the timeline than originally anticipated, a book that is built upon a single event can be less easily edited to keep the timeline moving in a consistently forward fashion.
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Aug 11 2005, 04:32 PM
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#74
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Thats funny that you should say that. Since one of SR4's selling points is that you don't need any other books to play Shadowrun. But all of us hardcore 'Runners know that the SRcomp4, Magic, Cyber, and Guns books for 4 ed might as well be part of the core package. |
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Aug 11 2005, 04:59 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
So what is new. I can actually play CP 2020 or Twilight 2000 V2.2 (as opposed to SR3) with only the basic book and I won't lack any special rules. Same for quite a few other games. I still consider(ed) the add-ons usefull and needed for the additional wealth in information, equipment and ideas they gave me and the work they did for me. So much in fact that I went to great length to insure a steady flow of "CHALLENGE" magazins back when GDW still was alive. God, I miss that magazine. So SR4 will work "barebones" if you are willing to do a LOT of work yourself and miss quite a few toys. Since the latter may hurt my preferred classes, I'll wait at least until the relevant books are out (Cyber, Guns, Matrix, Rigger) before even thinking about a switch. There is no "foul play" in it, it's the exchange every game company offers: Money vs. Time. Since I can get money easier than time, I buy additional books and use the "canon" world. Birdy |
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