Crazy Weaponry Of Today, convert to SR tech Options

[Raptor1033]

new type of gun that forsakes old tech in favor of faster ROF
metal storm
few more links for Metal Storm
Popular Mechanics
Weekly Standard

new type of smart bullet, can penetrate armor or shred meat w/o switching ammo
blended bullets

so since these are bleeding edge of today, how would one go about putting them 50-60 years in the future? would they be more common? abandoned as unusable or unwieldy? still incredibly hard to get? what about game mechanics, damage codes, availability, effects, etc.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Raptor1033]

i know! imagine how horrible it would be to have a metal storm cannon loaded with those bullets

[Austere Emancipa...]

I think Raygun will have something to say about the MetalStorm tech that's far smarter than anything I could muster, so we better wait for him or someone else. I've seen them discussed for SR earlier, but I can't remember exactly in what terms. Searching for "MetalStorm" on the Old Forums might produce something worth while, but they're down at the moment.

As for the BMT tech... Well, what little info I found about it (mainly here) tells me that it will probably be a poor performer at long ranges, because the bullets are so incredibly light (generally well below half the weight of ordinary bullets for the same calibers), and will thus lose energy faster. Also, you might want to completely dismiss that stuff found on the site you linked to about hydrostatic shock blowing the target's brains out...

It does have some rather nifty applications, however. For example, the "Air Marshall" version could be "programmed" to do normal damage up to 10 meters away, some damage up to 25 meters away and be totally harmless beyond that. You could make Light or Heavy Pistol or SMG ammo (if you don't like (Raygun's) ammunition by caliber) do the normal damage for that weapon at Short, perhaps -2 to Power at Medium and nothing at Long or Extreme.

You could probably also use this tech to accomplish what is now accomplished in SR with APDS ammunition - but in SR terms it would offer no edge over APDS whatsoever, since APDS already does full damage against soft targets.

PS. CHILL people, the BMT-link Raptor gave is obviously just PR and a sales pitch. This tech is certainly interesting, but it is not some überkillerbullet. I also doubt that the MetalStorm weapons would be capable of firing these bullets anyway, since the BMT-materials might not be magnetic/conductive/whatever.

[Zeel De Mort]

I definately saw something about that Metal Storm system (the one shown on a tripod) a few years ago. Maybe they were just reporting on a prototype at the time, in fact I think they were.

Anyway, crazy stuff. As far as game rules... pff! One could make some up for it I'm sure, but they'd be very silly! There's no need to shoot PEOPLE with things like that! Missiles though, could be good for that.

The blended bullets would be much easier, just some kind of reduction in ballistic armour, and increase in power. Like combining APDS with EX, but not as good as either.

I seem to remember reading somewhere (most likely a 2nd ed book) that armour values and firearms powers etc were based on modern tech. So if you had (for example) antique weapons, their damage codes and ability to penetrate might be different, not necessarily worse. There weren't any actual rules for it, but anyone remember what book that was? Or was I asleep at the time...

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Everial]

For game mechanics, I think they would be toned down in the future.

One example being the Barrett-made rifles... they wouldn't/haven't have improved (probably retrogressed) in the years between 2000 and 2060, judging by the statistics given in SR3.

[Zeel De Mort]

Oops, yep I meant modern as in 2050s. But I'm so vague as to where I read that it could have been another system all together. Who knows. :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

Well, they HAVE improved in the sense that they weigh a lot less - 10kg WITH sound suppressor, where current models weigh at least 12kg with a suppressor, a huge advance considering that most weapons have become a whole lot heavier in 60 years...

But yeah, just one more example of how SR firearms etc rules aren't based on anything more than Cool Factors and the whims of the game designers (and I'm not saying that's automatically a bad thing, some ppl don't like realism or believability).

[Raptor1033]

Raygun! we call upon your infinite knowledge of firearms to aid us in our time of dire need!!

[Ed_209a]

I want to hear more about these bullets. I read lots about what they can do, but not how. Sounds a bit optimistic to me.

[Crusher Bob]

It sounds like these bullet have an 'armor piercing' front end, and then a frangible back-end. When they hit soft tissue, they produce extreme yaw, and then fragment.

Considering how light the bullets they were talking about were, I would expect them to have considerable reduced range and striking power beyond maybe 100-150 meters.

Also, considering their light weight, these projectiles probably have lower 'straight AP' ability than conventional AP bullets.

If Grim wants to did up the pictures of the wound channels for fragmented 5.56, I assume that they are comperable to what these bullets do.

[Frag-o Delux]

I just saw show on the HIstory Channel talking about this stuff, I assume so did Raptor that is why the sudden question about 2 different technologies covered in one thread.

But any way, the Metal storm from the show uses stacked bullets that are caseless and ignited by a electrical charge, and fired like a regular bullet. So Austere if they used a caseless version of the BMT bullet then they could use it in the Metal storm. The bullets in the metal storm look like they are pre-loaded like a rocket launcher with the tube or barrles filled with caseless rounds and they fire off sequetually the bullet closet to the front of the barrel first and back. Then they just re-load a new set of tubes and fire away.

Now I don't know much about bullet technology, but the way the guy on the show described the BMT bullets is they built from an eight metal composite that can penetrate armor but when it touches flesh(specifically he said warm flesh) the material changes composition and expends 300% in all directions inside the flesh. Now I did think that is very unreallistic as I have never seen it and explained how it could be done. The images shown on the show were quit stunning though. Supposedly he fired what looked like a .45 or similar hand gun through what the commentator said a 1/4 inch steel plate into a what looked like a large roast. Now the round made a perfect circular whole through the plate and just shredded the roast, and supposedly nothing came out the back of the roast.

As far as APDS goes I think it should do a whole lot more damage on targets, I have seen some photos of what armor piercing rounds do to unprotected flesh, not very pretty at all. Shots to the arms or legs that are almost completely gone, torso shots where the back side of a body is just destroyed. Now I don't know the caliber of the rounds that did most of the damage but the guys showing me the photos assured me they were done with small arms. So I think mabe if you wanted to use the BMT rounds let them act as APDS and up the damage code on actual APDS, just a thought maybe Raygun can enlighten me also.

[Person 404]

[Frag-o Delux]

@Person 404

If we are talking about a fictional game world such as Shadowrun I don't see a problem with it being done, if you want it in your game. I personally think it could be done.

But if this is a discussion of real world ballistics, I don't know. I am not an engineer, just a simple electrican, with strange hobbies. I just happen to catch a show about 4 hours ago about the same topic of what is being discussed here. I'll look into those web sites though. Because I think these weapons could be a great hook for a few jobs. :)

[Raygun]

Metalstorm is good for certain things. Almost anything you'd use a minigun for, a Metalstorm-based weapon can do the same thing at reduced weight. Yes, you can get an extremely fast ROF out of these weapons. But that is an ability with extremely limited uses, especially when it comes to small arms. The major advantages that Metalstorm can offer at the small arms scale are that it is A) totally electronic, and B) mechanically simple. Integration of things like smartlinks, safeties and other electronics would be relatively simple to accomplish. Mechanical simplicity usually translates to reliability.

However, nothing is free. The downside to Metalstorm is the way in which ammunition is stored. 1) There is no such thing as an individual cartridge. Rounds are stored in stacks in the barrel; bullet, powder, priming compound, etc... All rounds must be fired before the weapon can be reloaded. There is no possibility of tactical reloading, meaning that if you know you're running low, you can simply exchange for a fresh magazine or add rounds to a stack. You have a six-round stack, you use a six round stack. When that stack is out, you put another six-round stack in. Period. 2) Stacking ammunition in this fashion both limits the amount of ammunition that can be carried in the gun (unless multiple barrels are employed) and tends to require that a barrel be relatively long in order to store a practical amount of ammunition. 3) Another problem is muzzle velocity from the first shot to the last. The first round is closer to the end of the barrel than the last, thus, in order to make velocity (and thus accuracy) consistent from the first shot to the last, more propellant must be added to the first round than to the last, in graduated sequence. 4) As the bullet behind the round ahead of it acts as the breech block, recoil force is exerted directly onto the bullet, which means that that bullet can easily be deformed in shape. As the shape of the bullet can differ from the first to the last (with the last round absorbing recoil from all the rounds fired before it), ballistic consistency is compromised.

In short, Metalstorm is great if you want to throw a lot of lead really fast (i.e. shipboard missile defense). But it isn't very useful as a small arms technology, especially when precision fire is required.

Will it be more common in the future? For small arms, I doubt it. Some uses are more practical than others, but overall, I don't think it will displace the more conventional technologies. For bigger, military-based systems, sure. I think it's entirely possible that we could see Metalstorm-based ship defense systems or land-based area control/denial platforms. Bottom line, if it's in your game, then it is.

According to Dr. Gary Roberts of the International Wound Ballistics Association (a very highly respected organization run by Dr. Martin Fackler), the LEMAS Ltd. BMT ammunition was tested, but none of the extraordinary claims presented by the company could be confirmed. The 9mm "RBCD" ammunition apparently performed no better than other conventional 9mm bullet loads. LEMAS has refuted the article via their website. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the IWBA. Every time some company comes along claiming some super-duper ammunition, IWBA tests it and reports on it, usually to the contrary of any fabulous claims made. Invariably, these companies come back with something like pictures of meat with holes in it with the caption "look at that!" It's nice and all, but it doesn't prove anything.

[Frag-o Delux]

The thing I saw on this show about the MetalStorm, looked like a giant pepperbox layed on its side, with dozens of barrels. The way they showed it was you would load entire rows of barrels. And I believe ther main goal was area denial and ambush senerios. I don't think they intended it to be dragged through a battle fiel and set up for every little fire fight.

On a side note about those super bullets, the picture were impressive. But I did think a little to impressive.

[Diesel]

From what I've read/heard, the massive MS weapon is in fact intended for area denial. A cheap and mobile replacement for massive minefields, and assuming all goes well, something you can walk in front of with the proper precautions.

I sure as hell wouldn't go anywhere 1,000,000 rounds didn't want me to go. :D

[Greyfoxx]

Here's another of metalstorm's possible useful applications...

Metalstorm firing 40mm grenades at 240k per min

hmmmm... ...if i load em with range finder and airburst grenades ala OCSW...


hehe my players are gonna get screwed tommorow. :ork

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Raptor1033]

ok how bout this for metal storm:

basic handgun unit
avail: 10
barrel avail: 8
ammo cap/barrel: 8
max barrels: 4, -1 conc per barrel
ammo avail: 10
conceal: 5
base damage per shot: 8M
can fire FA but user can use skill test to fire SA or BF
can get CC option of extending barrel to increase ammo cap plus other CC stuff to be determined later

basic cannon unit
avail: 20
ammo cap/barrel: 15
barrel avail: 18
max barrels: 36
ammo avail: 14
conc: --
base damage per shot: 10M
each barrel can fire 10 shots per round
can use CC options to extend barrel length to increase ammo cap, but extends length of overall unit and adds weight, plus a few other CC options TBA

as might be used in my campaign, NPC rigger went to Australia for a while and got his grubby mitts on one of these babies. he builds himself a van specifically for the use of the system. van has a crane built into the inside roof with enough STR to move the system, has it locked in place on the floor of the van for transport and then has the crane plant it in the ground for use when arrived at target destination. he uses it for with AV rounds for heavily armored caravan disruption (portable minefield) or with normal rounds for intercepting heavy weaponry headed his way. he armors the van for extra protection.


critique on the stats or plans? advice for CC options?

[Electric Cabbage]

This would be excellent for sniper rifles. Pull the trigger once and you could put 10 50 cal rounds into a guy with out having to expose yourself to fire a second time to make sure the target was dead if first shot just wounded him.

[Halbmetallmensch]

I guess with "50 cal" you mean something with the power of .50 BMG. So how exactly do you plan to handle the recoil of those 10 shots? Just a little bit to think about....
Hell, even 10 shots of .50AE would be far to much to handle.

[Hida Tsuzua]

It might be better for a drone sniper. Aim won't be affected and taking the recoil will not hurt as much for you or the bot.

Metal Storm would make for an messy "clear the room of intruders!" option for a Zero In Zero Out system.

[The Question Man]

A far more terrifying prospect would be Sentry Guns and Drones with such weapons . I think my Samurai just decided to retire . :(