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new type of gun that forsakes old tech in favor of faster ROF
metal storm
few more links for Metal Storm
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new type of smart bullet, can penetrate armor or shred meat w/o switching ammo
blended bullets

so since these are bleeding edge of today, how would one go about putting them 50-60 years in the future? would they be more common? abandoned as unusable or unwieldy? still incredibly hard to get? what about game mechanics, damage codes, availability, effects, etc.
Herald of Verjigorm
the ability to penetrate both hard and soft armor, yet not over-penetrate soft tissue which it will traumatically destroy
i know! imagine how horrible it would be to have a metal storm cannon loaded with those bullets
Austere Emancipator
I think Raygun will have something to say about the MetalStorm tech that's far smarter than anything I could muster, so we better wait for him or someone else. I've seen them discussed for SR earlier, but I can't remember exactly in what terms. Searching for "MetalStorm" on the Old Forums might produce something worth while, but they're down at the moment.

As for the BMT tech... Well, what little info I found about it (mainly here) tells me that it will probably be a poor performer at long ranges, because the bullets are so incredibly light (generally well below half the weight of ordinary bullets for the same calibers), and will thus lose energy faster. Also, you might want to completely dismiss that stuff found on the site you linked to about hydrostatic shock blowing the target's brains out...

It does have some rather nifty applications, however. For example, the "Air Marshall" version could be "programmed" to do normal damage up to 10 meters away, some damage up to 25 meters away and be totally harmless beyond that. You could make Light or Heavy Pistol or SMG ammo (if you don't like (Raygun's) ammunition by caliber) do the normal damage for that weapon at Short, perhaps -2 to Power at Medium and nothing at Long or Extreme.

You could probably also use this tech to accomplish what is now accomplished in SR with APDS ammunition - but in SR terms it would offer no edge over APDS whatsoever, since APDS already does full damage against soft targets.

PS. CHILL people, the BMT-link Raptor gave is obviously just PR and a sales pitch. This tech is certainly interesting, but it is not some überkillerbullet. I also doubt that the MetalStorm weapons would be capable of firing these bullets anyway, since the BMT-materials might not be magnetic/conductive/whatever.
Zeel De Mort
I definately saw something about that Metal Storm system (the one shown on a tripod) a few years ago. Maybe they were just reporting on a prototype at the time, in fact I think they were.

Anyway, crazy stuff. As far as game rules... pff! One could make some up for it I'm sure, but they'd be very silly! There's no need to shoot PEOPLE with things like that! Missiles though, could be good for that.

The blended bullets would be much easier, just some kind of reduction in ballistic armour, and increase in power. Like combining APDS with EX, but not as good as either.

I seem to remember reading somewhere (most likely a 2nd ed book) that armour values and firearms powers etc were based on modern tech. So if you had (for example) antique weapons, their damage codes and ability to penetrate might be different, not necessarily worse. There weren't any actual rules for it, but anyone remember what book that was? Or was I asleep at the time...
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort)
I seem to remember reading somewhere (most likely a 2nd ed book) that armour values and firearms powers etc were based on modern tech.  So if you had (for example) antique weapons, their damage codes and ability to penetrate might be different, not necessarily worse.  There weren't any actual rules for it, but anyone remember what book that was?  Or was I asleep at the time...

Nuh-uh, the armor values and firearms Powers are definitely NOT based on modern tech, not 1990's modern or 2050's modern (unless firearms tech makes some REALLY, REALLY weird advances and forgets some strategic stuff along the way). I do hope no book has ever even tried to tell the readers that, that'd be just plain silly.

Still won't comment on the MetalStorm, and won't even bother reading much about it right now, but like Zeel said, anti-ship missiles are probably the prime target for this tech.

The blended bullet can do a lot more than just penetrate and fragment, and even that's not as straight forward as it sounds. Like I said, it might actually be WORSE for both penetration and tissue damage, as well as accuracy et al, at very long ranges. And combining the effects of APDS and Explosive ammunition should probably be limited to oddities like HEIAP...
For game mechanics, I think they would be toned down in the future.

One example being the Barrett-made rifles... they wouldn't/haven't have improved (probably retrogressed) in the years between 2000 and 2060, judging by the statistics given in SR3.
Zeel De Mort
Oops, yep I meant modern as in 2050s. But I'm so vague as to where I read that it could have been another system all together. Who knows. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
Well, they HAVE improved in the sense that they weigh a lot less - 10kg WITH sound suppressor, where current models weigh at least 12kg with a suppressor, a huge advance considering that most weapons have become a whole lot heavier in 60 years...

But yeah, just one more example of how SR firearms etc rules aren't based on anything more than Cool Factors and the whims of the game designers (and I'm not saying that's automatically a bad thing, some ppl don't like realism or believability).
Raygun! we call upon your infinite knowledge of firearms to aid us in our time of dire need!!
I want to hear more about these bullets. I read lots about what they can do, but not how. Sounds a bit optimistic to me.
Crusher Bob
It sounds like these bullet have an 'armor piercing' front end, and then a frangible back-end. When they hit soft tissue, they produce extreme yaw, and then fragment.

Considering how light the bullets they were talking about were, I would expect them to have considerable reduced range and striking power beyond maybe 100-150 meters.

Also, considering their light weight, these projectiles probably have lower 'straight AP' ability than conventional AP bullets.

If Grim wants to did up the pictures of the wound channels for fragmented 5.56, I assume that they are comperable to what these bullets do.
Frag-o Delux
I just saw show on the HIstory Channel talking about this stuff, I assume so did Raptor that is why the sudden question about 2 different technologies covered in one thread.

But any way, the Metal storm from the show uses stacked bullets that are caseless and ignited by a electrical charge, and fired like a regular bullet. So Austere if they used a caseless version of the BMT bullet then they could use it in the Metal storm. The bullets in the metal storm look like they are pre-loaded like a rocket launcher with the tube or barrles filled with caseless rounds and they fire off sequetually the bullet closet to the front of the barrel first and back. Then they just re-load a new set of tubes and fire away.

Now I don't know much about bullet technology, but the way the guy on the show described the BMT bullets is they built from an eight metal composite that can penetrate armor but when it touches flesh(specifically he said warm flesh) the material changes composition and expends 300% in all directions inside the flesh. Now I did think that is very unreallistic as I have never seen it and explained how it could be done. The images shown on the show were quit stunning though. Supposedly he fired what looked like a .45 or similar hand gun through what the commentator said a 1/4 inch steel plate into a what looked like a large roast. Now the round made a perfect circular whole through the plate and just shredded the roast, and supposedly nothing came out the back of the roast.

As far as APDS goes I think it should do a whole lot more damage on targets, I have seen some photos of what armor piercing rounds do to unprotected flesh, not very pretty at all. Shots to the arms or legs that are almost completely gone, torso shots where the back side of a body is just destroyed. Now I don't know the caliber of the rounds that did most of the damage but the guys showing me the photos assured me they were done with small arms. So I think mabe if you wanted to use the BMT rounds let them act as APDS and up the damage code on actual APDS, just a thought maybe Raygun can enlighten me also.
Person 404
But any way, the Metal storm from the show uses stacked bullets that are caseless and ignited by a electrical charge, and fired like a regular bullet. So Austere if they used a caseless version of the BMT bullet then they could use it in the Metal storm.

Sort of. If you read the tech descriptions and FAQ at the Metalstorm site, they seem to be saying that the bullets they use, while close to conventional ammo, have some key differences in construction to allow them to be used in Metalstorm weapons. If I had to guess, I'd say that it's probably for the sequential expansion and deexpansion of bullets in the tube, but I don't know enough to say for sure. It's not a sure thing that the BMT bullets could be constructed in such a way to satisfy the requirements of Metalstorm and at the same time maintain their current supposed 'smart' properties.
Frag-o Delux
@Person 404

If we are talking about a fictional game world such as Shadowrun I don't see a problem with it being done, if you want it in your game. I personally think it could be done.

But if this is a discussion of real world ballistics, I don't know. I am not an engineer, just a simple electrican, with strange hobbies. I just happen to catch a show about 4 hours ago about the same topic of what is being discussed here. I'll look into those web sites though. Because I think these weapons could be a great hook for a few jobs. smile.gif
Metalstorm is good for certain things. Almost anything you'd use a minigun for, a Metalstorm-based weapon can do the same thing at reduced weight. Yes, you can get an extremely fast ROF out of these weapons. But that is an ability with extremely limited uses, especially when it comes to small arms. The major advantages that Metalstorm can offer at the small arms scale are that it is A) totally electronic, and B) mechanically simple. Integration of things like smartlinks, safeties and other electronics would be relatively simple to accomplish. Mechanical simplicity usually translates to reliability.

However, nothing is free. The downside to Metalstorm is the way in which ammunition is stored. 1) There is no such thing as an individual cartridge. Rounds are stored in stacks in the barrel; bullet, powder, priming compound, etc... All rounds must be fired before the weapon can be reloaded. There is no possibility of tactical reloading, meaning that if you know you're running low, you can simply exchange for a fresh magazine or add rounds to a stack. You have a six-round stack, you use a six round stack. When that stack is out, you put another six-round stack in. Period. 2) Stacking ammunition in this fashion both limits the amount of ammunition that can be carried in the gun (unless multiple barrels are employed) and tends to require that a barrel be relatively long in order to store a practical amount of ammunition. 3) Another problem is muzzle velocity from the first shot to the last. The first round is closer to the end of the barrel than the last, thus, in order to make velocity (and thus accuracy) consistent from the first shot to the last, more propellant must be added to the first round than to the last, in graduated sequence. 4) As the bullet behind the round ahead of it acts as the breech block, recoil force is exerted directly onto the bullet, which means that that bullet can easily be deformed in shape. As the shape of the bullet can differ from the first to the last (with the last round absorbing recoil from all the rounds fired before it), ballistic consistency is compromised.

In short, Metalstorm is great if you want to throw a lot of lead really fast (i.e. shipboard missile defense). But it isn't very useful as a small arms technology, especially when precision fire is required.

Will it be more common in the future? For small arms, I doubt it. Some uses are more practical than others, but overall, I don't think it will displace the more conventional technologies. For bigger, military-based systems, sure. I think it's entirely possible that we could see Metalstorm-based ship defense systems or land-based area control/denial platforms. Bottom line, if it's in your game, then it is.

According to Dr. Gary Roberts of the International Wound Ballistics Association (a very highly respected organization run by Dr. Martin Fackler), the LEMAS Ltd. BMT ammunition was tested, but none of the extraordinary claims presented by the company could be confirmed. The 9mm "RBCD" ammunition apparently performed no better than other conventional 9mm bullet loads. LEMAS has refuted the article via their website. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with the IWBA. Every time some company comes along claiming some super-duper ammunition, IWBA tests it and reports on it, usually to the contrary of any fabulous claims made. Invariably, these companies come back with something like pictures of meat with holes in it with the caption "look at that!" It's nice and all, but it doesn't prove anything.
Frag-o Delux
The thing I saw on this show about the MetalStorm, looked like a giant pepperbox layed on its side, with dozens of barrels. The way they showed it was you would load entire rows of barrels. And I believe ther main goal was area denial and ambush senerios. I don't think they intended it to be dragged through a battle fiel and set up for every little fire fight.

On a side note about those super bullets, the picture were impressive. But I did think a little to impressive.
From what I've read/heard, the massive MS weapon is in fact intended for area denial. A cheap and mobile replacement for massive minefields, and assuming all goes well, something you can walk in front of with the proper precautions.

I sure as hell wouldn't go anywhere 1,000,000 rounds didn't want me to go. biggrin.gif
Here's another of metalstorm's possible useful applications...

Metalstorm firing 40mm grenades at 240k per min

hmmmm... ...if i load em with range finder and airburst grenades ala OCSW...

hehe my players are gonna get screwed tommorow. ork.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
As far as APDS goes I think it should do a whole lot more damage on targets, I have seen some photos of what armor piercing rounds do to unprotected flesh, not very pretty at all. Shots to the arms or legs that are almost completely gone, torso shots where the back side of a body is just destroyed. Now I don't know the caliber of the rounds that did most of the damage but the guys showing me the photos assured me they were done with small arms. So I think mabe if you wanted to use the BMT rounds let them act as APDS and up the damage code on actual APDS, just a thought maybe Raygun can enlighten me also.

Since Raygun did not address this: I have never seen or heard of anything that would prove that small arms APDS rounds would do more tissue damage than FMJ rounds. In fact, everything I have seen and heard suggests that they do less. The APDS bullets are smaller in diameter and shorter, and they do not deform at all, so they just punch right through the target. The wound channel should by all means be smaller, even if under certain conditions the temporary cavity might be larger.

Mathematically speaking, even though APDS bullets generally have more energy than FMJ bullets, they discharge far less of that to the target, because of the above reasons. The round will exit the target almost as fast as it entered, which means less energy transfer, which automatically means less tissue damage.

How much less tissue damage they do in general, that I do not know. But I think it's a safe bet that APDS rounds do in fact do less damage to living targets, so there's no reason to make APDS rounds do more damage, even if there's no reason to make them do (much) less either. I give APDS rifle rounds -1 Power compared to full-caliber AP rounds.

By the way you describe the wounds in the pictures, they sound more like what .50BMG FMJ rounds might do. I seriously doubt any 7.62 or smaller round can manage that much tissue damage.

The stuff Crusher Bob asked for can be found here, on Raygun's site. And you can start calling me Aus or something...
ok how bout this for metal storm:

basic handgun unit
avail: 10
barrel avail: 8
ammo cap/barrel: 8
max barrels: 4, -1 conc per barrel
ammo avail: 10
conceal: 5
base damage per shot: 8M
can fire FA but user can use skill test to fire SA or BF
can get CC option of extending barrel to increase ammo cap plus other CC stuff to be determined later

basic cannon unit
avail: 20
ammo cap/barrel: 15
barrel avail: 18
max barrels: 36
ammo avail: 14
conc: --
base damage per shot: 10M
each barrel can fire 10 shots per round
can use CC options to extend barrel length to increase ammo cap, but extends length of overall unit and adds weight, plus a few other CC options TBA

as might be used in my campaign, NPC rigger went to Australia for a while and got his grubby mitts on one of these babies. he builds himself a van specifically for the use of the system. van has a crane built into the inside roof with enough STR to move the system, has it locked in place on the floor of the van for transport and then has the crane plant it in the ground for use when arrived at target destination. he uses it for with AV rounds for heavily armored caravan disruption (portable minefield) or with normal rounds for intercepting heavy weaponry headed his way. he armors the van for extra protection.

critique on the stats or plans? advice for CC options?
Electric Cabbage
This would be excellent for sniper rifles. Pull the trigger once and you could put 10 50 cal rounds into a guy with out having to expose yourself to fire a second time to make sure the target was dead if first shot just wounded him.
I guess with "50 cal" you mean something with the power of .50 BMG. So how exactly do you plan to handle the recoil of those 10 shots? Just a little bit to think about....
Hell, even 10 shots of .50AE would be far to much to handle.
Hida Tsuzua
It might be better for a drone sniper. Aim won't be affected and taking the recoil will not hurt as much for you or the bot.

Metal Storm would make for an messy "clear the room of intruders!" option for a Zero In Zero Out system.
The Question Man
A far more terrifying prospect would be Sentry Guns and Drones with such weapons . I think my Samurai just decided to retire . frown.gif
Okay, everyone, say it with me: "Snipers do not need FA weapons." One shot. One kill. That's why snipers have sniper rifles and not machine guns.
Yeah. Somebody was obviously not paying attention. Sniper = precision. Metalstorm = lead hose. The two do not go together.

About APDS, what Aus said. I personally don't use any rules that lower the power of an attack when using APDS, but it's certainly reasonable. The bullets are so hard that they don't deform or fragment (unless they hit something very hard), and they're moving so fast that a soft human body doesn't really present much of an obstacle. Of course, when the ammunition was designed to defeat APCs and recon vehicles, it's no wonder. (In other words, just ditch the APDS rules, use the AV rules and call it APDS and you'll be working a bit closer to reality, at least as long as you restrict it to MMGs and higher caliber weapons.)

One oddity that is easy to overlook about APDS ammunition is that the bullet is of subcaliber, meaning that it is much smaller than the type of bullet that the weapon it is being fired through was designed to use. This means that the bullet is more often than not understabilized by the rifling that causes it to spin in flight. This instability in flight leads to two things: 1) inaccuracy, and 2) it can cause an APDS bullet to tumble on contact with a target. If the target happens to be flesh, some very nasty things can happen. But these things only tend to become issues at relatively long ranges.

And as far as Frag-O's comments go about his friends with the pictures of APDS wounds, the most common APDS munition that the US military uses in small arms is the M903 .50 cal SLAP round. Anything on the human scale that it hits is pretty much fucked. Even if it were to transfer only 25% of its energy into a target at 100 meters, that would be more than the total energy developed by a 7.62x51mm ball round at the muzzle of an M14. That will certainly mangle an arm or leg pretty badly.
Electric Cabbage
Snipers aren't just about precision. They are demoralizing the enemy as well. At least thats what the big guns are for. Having your buddy ripped to pieces in front of you with high caliber weapons fire well within a secure area won't make you feel like fighting very much. Who cares about the recoil anyways they'd have figure out how to counter act something like 10 rounds firing nearly simultaneously by 206X anyways.
Ignoring recoil, it still makes the sniper's weapon useless. Since you can fire 10 FA and you think it's a very good idea, it's safe to say you'd use it more than just from time to time. In which case, you need a clip of ammo that doesn't force you to reload every time you used it. You'd probably end up with a 30 round clip, so you'd still be firing with limited ammo capacity. So let's forget the clip and go with an ammo belt, that way ammo is virtually unlimited. Now that we have a sniper rifle that fires full auto and accepts belt feeds, we'll need a tripod. Hmmm, that's strange. It's not supposed to look like a machine gun!

If a sniper has enough time to rationalize, "Hmmm, I don't think one shot will be enough to put this guy down. Better make it ten rounds," switch the firing modes and then fire, he jolly well had enough time to aim for the head! And if his target can easily sustain a few head shots, his rate of fire is not the problem.
My feeling about the small-arms APDS is that it is purely a marketing ploy.

Say you have a 5mm (for easy math) AP round. It is probably a 4mm piece of machined steel cast into a .5mm thick copper jacket, to protect the rifling. Now, instead of a copper jacket, we use a .5mm plastic band that falls off after firing.

Wham-O, instant APDS ammo. Sounds soooo much more impressive than the plain old AP rounds the competitor sells. And we get 5% more velocity from the lost weight! Quick put it on the brochure!

Regarding the sniper thing, I think an excellent combo is a sniper with a super-accurate bolt action rifle, and a spotter with an accurized assault rifle or battle rifle.

You get the single shots at .5 MOA or less, which let you make torso hits out past 1000m, and semiauto at 1MOA or less which do the same thing at 4-500m.
Electric Cabbage
the thing to consider about the ms tech is that it isn't just like a sniper rifle with a belt feed. you are literally firing a train of bullets. they fire nearly simultaneously. you don't just don't put a hole in someone, you make them go away. it is way over powered and obnoxious but it would make the target die and no amount of armor could save them. Just my take on it anyways.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Electric Cabbage @ Aug 18 2003, 05:05 AM)
Who cares about the recoil anyways they'd have figure out how to counter act something like 10 rounds firing nearly simultaneously by  206X anyways.

Yeah, I'm sure that by the 2060s, they'll have created a micro-dynamo, same size as the little buggers on bikes, and when attached to ANYTHING and turned on, they will automatically transform all motion energy into electricity. That's not much of a stretch. With 10 x .50BMG-type rounds, that's 162kJ of electrical energy, enough to heat a 10kg weapon 35 degrees C when turned into thermal energy. Just remember to turn it off before leaving the scene, or you won't be able to move your weapon. And it'll float straight out into space, too, because gravity can't get a grip on it. Great for floating footholds. In fact, it has nearly unlimited, extremely handy applications. For just 29.99Y!

Yes, of course I'm serious. I'm always serious. indifferent.gif

And no, it isn't like a sniper rifle with a belt feed, it's yet way more inaccurate than that. To hit anything at long range, you'd have to depend on a shotgun pattern. And, as we all know, shotguns are the penultimate sniper weapon, just after miniguns.
I think that regardless, MetalStorm is an ineffecient and expensive anti-infantry solution. I'm sure it's far more effectively used in anti-armor applications, similar to miniguns. I think using it on flesh is a bit of overkill...
heh you guys keep assuming i'd be using this on meat targets. the cannon version of this system was definately not meant for that, and as for recoil, would 4 large spikes driven into the ground absorb most of that, cause that's what this system uses.
Austere Emancipator
I think most of us are commenting on Electrical Cabbage's msgs, not yours. For a sniping application, having to bolt your weapon down firmly before you can fire it is not a perfect solution...

The cannon version you posted is, in fact, a tad underpowered in my mind. If the RL models fire shells as large as 40mm GLs do, then the cannon-unit should do at least minigrenade damage, ie 10S or more.
Funnily enough, this idea of Electric Cabbage's was actually persued (at least in concept) by Metalstorm a while back in a .308 "Advanced Sniper Rifle" platform. AFAIK, it's gone nowhere. I wonder why?
haha exactly why i made only the cannon and handgun versions. and the cannon i was trying to make wasn't for the 40mm grenade launcher version, but the machine gun style cannon system. if i went the 40mm way i'd have the damage listed by grenade type and have the target resist however many you sent downrange at the unfortunate sap.
as it is for recoil, the vids i saw had the cannon box set on a quadpod that had four very large poles through each corner and into the ground. i guess i'm only assuming, but it makes a lot of sense since the whole of the system didn't really move until they fired it at the upper RsOF. when they fired the fastest it could go the entire thing rocked back a few inches at least ( i don't know the scale of the system) but by the time it started to rock back all the bullets had left the thing.
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