 The Geneva Conventions, What ever did happen to them? |
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 Aug 16 2005, 02:11 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500  |
From the badly beaten-up thread "Shadowrunners: Criminals or terrorists":
I posted a moderate bit on North America's successor states in response, but Kagetenshi asks a good question... Whatever happened to the Geneva Conventions, the Hague Conventions, and similar essential treaties on the rules of war? How do megacorps fit? Also, uh...What about various issues relating to the United States, like: 1. Treaties. Who carries that on? 2. Debt. I imagine this was split between everybody in the former US? 3. The nukes. Yeah, those. And, similarly...In regards to Canada... 1. The Commonwealth. Um, what happened? 2. Canada's Debt. Same question...? |
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Aug 16 2005, 03:06 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Not sure what you mean. The Commonwealth is made up of 53 independent states--while Canada's destruction would be a major blow and a topic for serious debate, it would hardly signal an end (or even a major restructuring) of the CW.
Well, when Québec separation was a serious concern in the 1980s, the debate around debt-partition was HUGE and multifaceted. There was consensus around the idea that this province would have to take on some of the country's debt, but how much was--of course--a major issue. What factors influence it, what formulae should be used, etc. Tricky stuff. I'd imagine that the dissolution of the U.S. and Canada provided about a billion hours of overtime for lawyers and accountants in both countries. :) |
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Aug 16 2005, 04:51 PM
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#3
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I don't knew about countries, but with people debts don't usually survive the debtor. THis is why it isn't a good idea to kill someone who owes you money. If guy owes you 10 billion dollars and he has a heart attack, there goes 10 billion dollars.
Somehow, I presume that much of the US debt just evaporated with its collapse. Certainly, it would be just as impossible to cash in a US savings bond after the UCAS was formed as it is to cash in a CSA savings bond now. |
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Aug 16 2005, 04:57 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Um, this would be a bad thing.
Top 3 holders of US debt instruments as of June 2005 (in billions (1E9) of US dollars) Japan 680.2 Mainland China 243.2 (Hong Kong holds another 48.1 'seperately') UK 140.9 Total 1999.7 |
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Aug 16 2005, 05:11 PM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It would serve to frag the world economy and make the rise of the AAAs and the corporate court much more plausable. In such a chaotic economic enviroment a few robber barons can become very powerful very quickly.
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Aug 16 2005, 05:34 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
Compared to the sheer size of the US debt, Canada defaulting on all it's loans wouldn't even be noticed. Canada owes something like 190 Billion (US), the US, if Crusher Bob's statistics are accurate, owes 2 TRILLION. Canada's budget is also balanced at the moment (arrogant SOB that he is, Martin actually managed that), so it's actually paying the debt off. The US, last I heard was just digging deeper (though I have no hard knowledge of this). So by the time of dissilution and Union the US national debt could be.... well past the 3 Trillion mark, maybe even 4 or 5, depending on how little tax revenue the new megacorps could get away with under extraterritoriality and how much demand they'd place on the existing financial systems. That plus military expenditures and VITAS and Ghost-Dance induced population drops, and we have a recipe for world economic disaster centered around the former United States.
When the UCAS formed they basically said to the world "Oh, by the way, the US and Canada don't exist anymore, and we're not paying off what they owe, so don't come to us looking for money". Economic collapse, massive chaos. No wonder the Dollar was devalued so much, completely replaced by the Yen (well, Nuyen). |
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Aug 16 2005, 05:38 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
Many of those Corporations would also possess ownership of US debt (Bonds). Especially with a rising Japanese power, I doubt they would let the debt simply be abrogated. Think about the dispute over waiving African debt, which hardly has the same impact.
Does anyone with Loose Alliances have the UN Section handy? Does It say whose on the Security Council? If its the UCAS, my imagination is that they inherited the US's debt, Security Council seat, and Nuclear Arsenal. Inheriting all the debt, and losing much of the economic base would certainly help the UCAS fall in economic clout. (which it certainly did) Arguably as the successor also of Canada, it may have inherited that weight as well, or at least some element of it. As I said on another thread, successor states generally speaking inherit all their predecessors debts and agreements, as a part of being recognized as the legitimate entity. But then again, International Law goes by the old Playground maxim... "Oh yeah... Make me." |
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Aug 16 2005, 05:46 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
True dat. |
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Aug 16 2005, 05:49 PM
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#9
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Well, the evaporation of the US debt would have had more of an economic impact through loss of faith than through loss of money. As it stands, the US debt is basicly the revolving credit card scheme from hell.
I'll use my Mastercard to pay off my Discover card, I'll Visa my Discover card to pay off my Visa, and I'll use my Visa to pay off my Master Card. I can't possibly lose. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that they'll actually be paid off. |
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Aug 16 2005, 05:52 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Foreign holdings of US Treasury securities increased $740 billion from January 2001 to May 2004 (source). Here are the latest official figures I could find.
The law of armed conflict, though, really goes more by "If you do then so will I." The big guys don't need to break the rules because they'll win anyway, so they rather ban the unusual methods to keep their losses to a minimum. |
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Aug 16 2005, 06:25 PM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 29-June 04 From: Ottawa, Canada Member No.: 6,445 |
From previous threads the vague consensus seemed to be that most international treaties were still in place, some in altered form. The Geneva and Hague Conventions are no doubt still around, especially the former since it's the likeliest carrier for new concepts like the extraterritorial nature of megacorps.
It's true that the world economy can't directly prevent nations from defaulting on their debt payments (including shirking off their obligations for reasons of secession). But a debt default can be so catastrophic on a nation's currency, foreign investment and general credibility that it's the last of last resorts in a stable and balanced world market. Even (especially) if you're a brand new country, you need to quickly establish financial credibility so you can't just go "I was just born, tabula rasa, don't ask me to refund anything". With that said, if you throw in planetwide instability, VITAS, the Crash, etc.. then some nations might find a default to be the least of their worries. I see no reason why the Commonwealth would be immune to the general loss of membership, power and influence which every world organization suffered in the SR timeline. The UK would surely want to keep it alive in a smaller form, but given the rise in nationalism it's doubtful that the new nations of Africa and the far East would be interested. In any case, the modern-day CW is more of a loose club of historically-tied countries with some superficial moral overtones, rather than any sort of effective group of nations - that would make it a natural casualty of world unrest. |
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Aug 16 2005, 07:06 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
The US owes well above 4 trillion, most of it is owed to smaller interest than hundreds of billions level. |
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Aug 16 2005, 07:43 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Except that such a loose organizational structure might be its saving grace. Because the ties within the Commonwealth are so low-maintenance anyway, they might continue simply because severing them would actually require an investment of resources. Sometimes the status quo is the easiest option. Furthermore, most of the CW nations benefit from the association. The spin-offs in terms of trade and intercultural "wheel-greasing" would be worth (IMHO) the minimal effort required to maintain the network. |
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Aug 16 2005, 08:52 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
National debts do survive. I point doubters to the Treaty of Lausanne, which had a fairly significant section dealing with the Ottoman Public Debt. And which may provide a solution in re the US. The debt was split between the various nations inhabiting the territory previously known as the Ottoman Empire. |
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Aug 16 2005, 08:57 PM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
In re the CW: It does matter, actually. Not the organization, but the trade/immigration/citizenship matters it creates.
Oh, and something nobody answered: Does the UCAS have the Riot Act? (Which is, IIRC, on the books in Canada. And, yes, it is that Riot Act. Which has some of the scariest provisions ever.) |
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Aug 17 2005, 02:27 AM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 29-June 04 From: Ottawa, Canada Member No.: 6,445 |
Good point. It would be easy to imagine the CW ties going dormant for a few decades while members have other fish to fry. When nations realize the megacorps are here to stay, they dust off any old international network they can find so that together they can better stand up to corporate power. Another twist would be Britain using the CW as an instrument of neocolonialism, pumping resources into it and turning it into a propaganda tool and provider of "development funds" (bribes) to various smaller countries in exchange for commercial concessions and collaboration. I feel the beginning of a run shaping up... :S |
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Aug 17 2005, 03:20 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
That's exactly what I was thinking, thank you for phrasing it more lucidly. :)
I smell the 20th century. ;) Seriously, that has a lot of potential. Runners could escort the funds, as transfers of hard cred are easier to conceal than matrix exchanges. Runners could engage in propaganda exercises, creating threats which the CW than shuts down; alternately, they could be hired to quietly eliminate threats to member nations and then let CW troops take the public glory... Oooh... wheels spinning... |
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Aug 17 2005, 05:10 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
IIRC in Dunkelzahn's will, someone comments that not even Dunkie could have paid off UCAS's debt.
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Aug 17 2005, 06:25 AM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
According to Forbes, the 3 richest people in the world currently are:
Bill Gates with 46.6 Billion (1E9) Warren Buffett with 42.9 Billion And Karl Albrecht with 23 Billion Assuming my earlier data is correct, all three of these guys, using all of their money, could by around 5.6% of the current US debt. Heck, they can't even buy all of Canada's debt. |
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Aug 17 2005, 06:25 AM
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#20
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Debts, as with rules, are best written in blood.
The easiest way to handle debts is to become bum-buddies with the biggest couple of Megacorps (note: NOT Saeder-Krupp) you want and have them pay off your monetary debts as a 'goodwill' gesture, with an under-the-table agreement that you're selling them your nation's soul. Then renege on the deal that's not in writing. What're they gonna do, launch a war? That's suicide for any corp other than SK or Ares, and it's iffy even for Ares or SK. As a plus, it would generate wee-doggies Shadowruns, which is what we're all about, innit? |
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Aug 18 2005, 04:27 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Which is precisely why no sensible megacorp would agree to this deal. Why "buy" a nation's soul from the government when the citizens are already selling it to you piecemeal? |
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Aug 18 2005, 05:05 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
When countries split up they work out with thier various treaty partners how the treaties end up. For the various war regulation (ie geneva conventions, multilateral arms control) I think that both new nations usually end up obliged to these treaties. Less multilateral treaties are more likely to be renegotiated. I imagine there is some transition period while new treaties are negotiated and laws are separated where they are honoring some treaties as if they were still the old nation and some new separate ones are coming into effect.
Almost always new governments are held liable by the creditors of the previous government. Impossible to say what could happen with the US debt though, it is such a unique situation. A somewhat reasonable path for shadowrun would be to say that the elimination of our absurd debt was partially accomplished by transferring government land and other assets to the megacorporations. Basically they bought up all our bad debt and ended up owning things like denver, the interstate highway system, military bases, high value government real-estate like downtown office buildings. |
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Aug 18 2005, 05:55 PM
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#23
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Also, don't they hold a summit to allow the new nations to formally become signatories in the treaty as a gesture of inclusion, regardless of their grandfathered in ness?
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Aug 19 2005, 12:09 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
If the UCAS defaulted on the national debt when it split up, that would have catastrophic effects for all nations that hold US debt like Japan and China, and Japan probably wouldn't have the dominant economic position it has today. But with the US split up, that would leave a lot less confidence in the US dollar and it would probably cease to be the primary international currency.
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Aug 19 2005, 12:51 AM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Which it did, replaced by the nuyen (sheesh).
Looking on in retrospect, however, Shadowrun picked it just as the Japanese economy began to die. That makes me laugh. |
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