From the badly beaten-up thread "Shadowrunners: Criminals or terrorists":

I don't knew about countries, but with people debts don't usually survive the debtor. THis is why it isn't a good idea to kill someone who owes you money. If guy owes you 10 billion dollars and he has a heart attack, there goes 10 billion dollars.

Somehow, I presume that much of the US debt just evaporated with its collapse. Certainly, it would be just as impossible to cash in a US savings bond after the UCAS was formed as it is to cash in a CSA savings bond now.

Um, this would be a bad thing.

Top 3 holders of US debt instruments as of June 2005 (in billions (1E9) of US dollars)

Japan 680.2
Mainland China 243.2 (Hong Kong holds another 48.1 'seperately')
UK 140.9

Total 1999.7

It would serve to frag the world economy and make the rise of the AAAs and the corporate court much more plausable. In such a chaotic economic enviroment a few robber barons can become very powerful very quickly.

Compared to the sheer size of the US debt, Canada defaulting on all it's loans wouldn't even be noticed. Canada owes something like 190 Billion (US), the US, if Crusher Bob's statistics are accurate, owes 2 TRILLION. Canada's budget is also balanced at the moment (arrogant SOB that he is, Martin actually managed that), so it's actually paying the debt off. The US, last I heard was just digging deeper (though I have no hard knowledge of this). So by the time of dissilution and Union the US national debt could be.... well past the 3 Trillion mark, maybe even 4 or 5, depending on how little tax revenue the new megacorps could get away with under extraterritoriality and how much demand they'd place on the existing financial systems. That plus military expenditures and VITAS and Ghost-Dance induced population drops, and we have a recipe for world economic disaster centered around the former United States.

When the UCAS formed they basically said to the world "Oh, by the way, the US and Canada don't exist anymore, and we're not paying off what they owe, so don't come to us looking for money". Economic collapse, massive chaos. No wonder the Dollar was devalued so much, completely replaced by the Yen (well, Nuyen).

Many of those Corporations would also possess ownership of US debt (Bonds). Especially with a rising Japanese power, I doubt they would let the debt simply be abrogated. Think about the dispute over waiving African debt, which hardly has the same impact.

Does anyone with Loose Alliances have the UN Section handy? Does It say whose on the Security Council? If its the UCAS, my imagination is that they inherited the US's debt, Security Council seat, and Nuclear Arsenal. Inheriting all the debt, and losing much of the economic base would certainly help the UCAS fall in economic clout. (which it certainly did) Arguably as the successor also of Canada, it may have inherited that weight as well, or at least some element of it.

As I said on another thread, successor states generally speaking inherit all their predecessors debts and agreements, as a part of being recognized as the legitimate entity.

But then again, International Law goes by the old Playground maxim...

"Oh yeah... Make me."

Well, the evaporation of the US debt would have had more of an economic impact through loss of faith than through loss of money. As it stands, the US debt is basicly the revolving credit card scheme from hell.
I'll use my Mastercard to pay off my Discover card, I'll Visa my Discover card to pay off my Visa, and I'll use my Visa to pay off my Master Card. I can't possibly lose.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that they'll actually be paid off.

From previous threads the vague consensus seemed to be that most international treaties were still in place, some in altered form. The Geneva and Hague Conventions are no doubt still around, especially the former since it's the likeliest carrier for new concepts like the extraterritorial nature of megacorps.

It's true that the world economy can't directly prevent nations from defaulting on their debt payments (including shirking off their obligations for reasons of secession). But a debt default can be so catastrophic on a nation's currency, foreign investment and general credibility that it's the last of last resorts in a stable and balanced world market. Even (especially) if you're a brand new country, you need to quickly establish financial credibility so you can't just go "I was just born, tabula rasa, don't ask me to refund anything". With that said, if you throw in planetwide instability, VITAS, the Crash, etc.. then some nations might find a default to be the least of their worries.

I see no reason why the Commonwealth would be immune to the general loss of membership, power and influence which every world organization suffered in the SR timeline. The UK would surely want to keep it alive in a smaller form, but given the rise in nationalism it's doubtful that the new nations of Africa and the far East would be interested. In any case, the modern-day CW is more of a loose club of historically-tied countries with some superficial moral overtones, rather than any sort of effective group of nations - that would make it a natural casualty of world unrest.

In re the CW: It does matter, actually. Not the organization, but the trade/immigration/citizenship matters it creates.

Oh, and something nobody answered: Does the UCAS have the Riot Act? (Which is, IIRC, on the books in Canada. And, yes, it is that Riot Act. Which has some of the scariest provisions ever.)

IIRC in Dunkelzahn's will, someone comments that not even Dunkie could have paid off UCAS's debt.

According to Forbes, the 3 richest people in the world currently are:

Bill Gates with 46.6 Billion (1E9)
Warren Buffett with 42.9 Billion
And
Karl Albrecht with 23 Billion

Assuming my earlier data is correct, all three of these guys, using all of their money, could by around 5.6% of the current US debt.

Heck, they can't even buy all of Canada's debt.

Debts, as with rules, are best written in blood.

The easiest way to handle debts is to become bum-buddies with the biggest couple of Megacorps (note: NOT Saeder-Krupp) you want and have them pay off your monetary debts as a 'goodwill' gesture, with an under-the-table agreement that you're selling them your nation's soul.

Then renege on the deal that's not in writing. What're they gonna do, launch a war? That's suicide for any corp other than SK or Ares, and it's iffy even for Ares or SK.


As a plus, it would generate wee-doggies Shadowruns, which is what we're all about, innit?

When countries split up they work out with thier various treaty partners how the treaties end up. For the various war regulation (ie geneva conventions, multilateral arms control) I think that both new nations usually end up obliged to these treaties. Less multilateral treaties are more likely to be renegotiated. I imagine there is some transition period while new treaties are negotiated and laws are separated where they are honoring some treaties as if they were still the old nation and some new separate ones are coming into effect.

Almost always new governments are held liable by the creditors of the previous government. Impossible to say what could happen with the US debt though, it is such a unique situation. A somewhat reasonable path for shadowrun would be to say that the elimination of our absurd debt was partially accomplished by transferring government land and other assets to the megacorporations. Basically they bought up all our bad debt and ended up owning things like denver, the interstate highway system, military bases, high value government real-estate like downtown office buildings.

Also, don't they hold a summit to allow the new nations to formally become signatories in the treaty as a gesture of inclusion, regardless of their grandfathered in ness?

If the UCAS defaulted on the national debt when it split up, that would have catastrophic effects for all nations that hold US debt like Japan and China, and Japan probably wouldn't have the dominant economic position it has today. But with the US split up, that would leave a lot less confidence in the US dollar and it would probably cease to be the primary international currency.

Which it did, replaced by the nuyen (sheesh).

Looking on in retrospect, however, Shadowrun picked it just as the Japanese economy began to die.

That makes me laugh.

As for question 3 Those Nukes. That would cause me worry. The majority of the US's land based nukes are located in...Survey says...The Great Plains. This leaves most of those nukes in UCAS hands with the Sioux and CAS coming in 2nd and 3rd. Some how having a nations big guns, or in this case bombs, sitting near the border doesn't seem like a wonderfully secure idea. I smell employment.