 Another sample character. |
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 Aug 18 2005, 09:15 AM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
You forget about Armor + Increase Initiative + reach weapon + some skill + ok attribute + mediocure to sub-par melee opponent without a dedicated weapon = slash happy mage. Combat Lesson #1, carefully choose your momments and your opponents. Going toe-to-toe with a Laser Axe wielding Cyberzombie troll, bad. |
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Aug 18 2005, 10:59 AM
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#52
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Laser Axe wielding Cyberzombie troll who's batteries just ran out. and is "stuck in the details " good (or better at least ;) )
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Aug 18 2005, 12:09 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Well, this could be another bad thing, as far as I'm concerned, but based on what we've seen so far, what makes you say this mage shouldn't get into melee?
Unless there's something hidden that we're not seeing (like Lucky being the end-all be-all combat edge, or something) then this guy is really not much worse at melee combat (assuming he has a blade in his hand) than the so-called "Weapons Specialist". He has the same physical stats, slightly lower melee skill, and slightly higher dodge. Perhaps it's just beacause "weapon specialist" characters have been born to suck regardless of edition, but I'll be waiting to see whether this homogeneity of characters continues... |
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Aug 18 2005, 01:06 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Good day people. I'm semi new here, well first time posting here in these forums atleast. Combat Mages should be built to go into combat, ranged and close and be able to hold their own/survive through it if they're smart and play to their strengths. Thats what it looks like this character does quite well. Primarily he has his spells, but he can also mix it up in ranged combat (Pistols) and melee combat (katana) if need be. Looking at both his stats and skills (as thats what makes up his dice pool) he is decent at both ranged and melee combat, but great at spellcasting (which he better damn well be if he's a mage). he wouldn't be able to take on everyone in melee or ranged, but he won't be worthless if he can't get a spell off or gets jumped. Personaly, whats wrong with a mage being able to mix it up in melee combat? No he's not going to be as good as a melee monkey but thats to be expected. If you build a halfway decent combat mage Sabosec, you shouldn't have to imediately run away leaving your team behind when someone engages you in melee combat. If you actualy take time to sit down and look at the char, or both of the sample chars. They seem to be built to be survivable. For all the cracks against the weapons master, she has decent ranged and melee abilities and a smartlink ontop of that. The mage here can take just about all forms of combat and not have to run away pissing his pants because some punk drew a knife on him. Oh in response to the person above me. In melee combat he's not much worse, however in ranged, the mage has no smartlink whereas the weapons specialist does indeed. She seems alot better at ranged combat than in melee. Edit: Another thing to note on the weapons specialist. She has the close combat skills group and firearms skill groups if i'm not mistaken. And now we see the combat mage with Blades and pistols. This leads me to believe you can get those skills (pistols and blades) at lower bp cost, or you can get the groups and have acess to ALL weapons in those groups and be able to use all those different types of weapons equaly well. Any thoughts on that guys? |
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Aug 18 2005, 01:09 PM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Bunker Gate 7 [CaTCo Compound] Member No.: 4,248 |
Better than everyone being a dwarf :D |
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Aug 18 2005, 01:11 PM
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#56
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Take your racist bullshit elsewhere! Just kidding, no hard feelings I hope, but I couldn't resist. :) |
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Aug 18 2005, 01:26 PM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 13-March 03 From: Bunker Gate 7 [CaTCo Compound] Member No.: 4,248 |
hehehe ;)
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Aug 18 2005, 01:53 PM
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#58
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
and, of course, there's the most basic reason for any character to take at least one melee skill to a respectable level: defense. all the spells in the world won't help a mage who just got TKO'd in one hit by Random Ganger #7. granted, unarmed is generally best for that.
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Aug 18 2005, 01:59 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
actually in 3rd the best was staff...due to reach. And I can see a katana being good at that for the sheer reasons of reach and intimidation factor. |
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Aug 18 2005, 02:10 PM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
staves and other weapons are great... if you already have it out when you're attacked. for defense, unarmed is best because you never have to worry about not being ready.
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Aug 18 2005, 02:24 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Impressions on this mage sample character ( and some on the weapon specialist )
Second elf in a row? The stats are remarkably average. ( As was the weapon specialist ) I hope the rules don't make it prohibitive for a character to start with a high stat. This would seriously impact my game as I have a house rule with SR3 that had the karma cost for increasing an attribute would increase by a factor of 2 after each successive raise. ( The first raise would be normal cost. But each successive raise would become more and more prohibitively expensive. I didn't want say a int 1 character building his int all the way to 6. I thought that would be a little silly. ) And on that matter.... no low stats? I'd expect at least one 2. It worries me that characters are now going to have to pay BPs for things they did naturally before. ( Perception, Dodge ) Counterspelling may be the new spell defense which would be another ability you now have to pay for. Seems kind of wonky to me. Do you actually go to "perception" classes? "Okay class, now everyone open their "Where's Waldo" textbooks." I'm surprised at the lack of stealth in both character examples. It became such a common skill in my games. Another common skill that I see no sight of. Biotech ( First Aid ). That one was really popular. A quick Note on the weapon specialist. Did you see that Armorer 5 rating? It's rare to see a SR character where the building and repair of weapons actually is given a higher priority than using them. What precisely is a "skill group"? I noticed the weapon specialist had skill groups in close combat and firearms. While the combat mage has one in conjuring, but has more specific melee and ranged skills. A fair amount of qualities. As a GM I banned a lot of different edges in SR3. ( Mostly because I found Target Number modifiers unbalancing ) I wonder how many qualities I'll end up banning. Is it just me or is this a character who would really not last long in SR3? His blades(2) and pistols(3) skills are at best average. Hardly formidable like his description says. Granted he can cast spells, but unless they've completely undone the concept of sustaining penalities and drain, he wouldn't be able to last long in a fight. He's by his description a hermetic. But he uses a magical spell lodge. I can see the blending of shamanic lodges and hermetic libraries. I've heard rumors that they were bringing the different types of magicians closer together. But I have to wonder how far they've gone. Do totems still exist? Totem modifiers? And of course there was one area where the different types of magicians were far, far apart : Conjuring. All types of magicians had a specific set of spirits they could call on. What types of spirits can this guy call on? If he can call on both elementals and nature spirits then they've gone beyond rule changes into the realm of concept changes and that'll be a little hard for those used to the old system to digest. Comparing the weapon specialist and the mage it appears that you pay 1 BP for each 5000 nuyen. It's odd that the mage seems to have been far more thrifty. The Weapon Specialist on the other seemed to have a lot more money but I can't figure out what for. ( since the weapon specialist was cyber free ) Perhaps it was that Armorer facility. On as a final note on the weapon specialist. Bow and crossbow? 2 katanas and a combat axe? Shuriken and throwing knives? Good lord woman pick one of each! |
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Aug 18 2005, 02:48 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Well first mistake, comparing it directly to sr3. Second mistake, believeing that people can't dodge or use perception normaly. Why would they not be able to make a perception test normaly? No reason at all, just using whichever base stat lent to the dicepool. The skill i believe is so that people can specialize in it, some being better and picking out things than others. While all can make it, some people are better at picking out details, as seen with the perception skill. Same concept for dodge. Also As for the weapons specialist, she is supposed to be good at improvised weapons and making repairs, prehapse the armorer skill will lend to that? Unable to tell at the moment though. As for skill groups such as firearms, it would be like the 2nd ed skill firearms, allowing you to use all different types of firearms equally. Probably comes at a slightly higher bp cost, whereas getting pistols would come at a slightly lower bp cost but you would only be good with pistols. As for qualities and such. They seem to be intrinsic parts of the system now, so banning them outright would probably be bad, restricting possibly. If you're a decent GM you're monitoring and going through cg with your players so they don't abuse the system or unballance your game. You're also completely misjudging the survivability factors. You're trying to use sr4 stats and running them theoreticaly though sr3 combat. Doesn't work that way in sr4. It would be better to run the sr4 stats through something like the Exalted rules ( a system far closer to sr4's than sr3's is). If you do that, they are quite survivable characters as long as you don't do somthing stupid. A note about the mage thing, they made mention they were streamlining it and things like that, can't remember which faq it was but they breezed over the changes to totems, lodges, hermetics and shamans. And she's a weapons specialist good in anytype of weapons...why not have one of everything :D |
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Aug 18 2005, 02:50 PM
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#63
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
cops are often trained in being more preceptive.
and training dodge would be just like playing around with friends, trying to avoid being hit. |
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Aug 18 2005, 03:24 PM
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#64
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Every time I think of Dodge training I have this image of Clint eastwood holding an AK-47 anddiscussing the unique sound it makes to a Marine Scout unit...
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Aug 18 2005, 03:35 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I hadn't noticed the "magical lodge". That seems strange to me. I didn't think (I still don't think) they are bringing the traditions closer to each other, just the mechanics. A mage will still summon elementals; a shaman will still summon nature spirits. That hasn't changed AFAIK. However, the fact that they call his materials a "magical lodge" as opposed to "hermetic lodge" suggests that mage and shaman lodge materials are interchangable, which I don't agree with.
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Aug 18 2005, 03:40 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
They may not be, they may instead be lumping them into one thing for purposes of buying gear. Aka, the stuff to make the shamanic lodge costing the same as the stuff for a hermetic library.
From the FAQ. Prehapse he's his own trad? |
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Aug 18 2005, 03:49 PM
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#67
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
They haven't gotten to the Rigger yet, which apparently is just a synonym for Dwarf. :^) |
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Aug 18 2005, 04:07 PM
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#68
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball...
Stealth and Athletics were by far the most common skills in my games. Wonder what happened to them? Guess they don't have security cameras or fences in 2070 now that everything is wireless... Perception and Dodge are going to be a real skill drain from what I can imagine (being here in the dark being fed a bunch of shit). Skill groups may alleviate that but still a little worrisome. Seems that shadowrun is going to go the way of the Roll and Keep systems--better to be naturally gifted than to be trained. I'd rather have that +1 Agility that makes me better at numerous skills than that +1 Firearms group which only makes me better with firearms (assuming that I already have Firearms 1). |
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Aug 18 2005, 04:49 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Here's my issue with dodge and preception being skills.....
Everyone has them. Everyone has had some dodging and perception experience in life because these are basic activities. As I understand it dice rolls in SR4 are going to be a combination of the skill and the governing attribute. But what happens if the character doesn't have the skill? For a skill like Blades. If a character with no blades experience picks up a katana and tries to defend hinself against someone else using a Katana that has the skill. I don't care how quick the character is he should get himself roundly beaten. Likewise if a character with a high logic tries to do Electronics work but doesn't have the skill. Odds of success run pretty close to zero. But Dodge? If someone starts shooting at a character, dodging is a basic survival instinct. If a character doesn't have the dodge skill he still should be able to do it with a decent chance of success based off his quickness. Same with perception. Just because a character doesn't have the skill does not make him blind. He should have a decent chance of noticing something without having any strong penalties for not having the skill. This leaves us with 2 different types of skills. Skills where you have no business trying to do something if you don't have the skill and those where not having the skill should not overly penalize you if you try to do the activity anyway. Does SR4 recognize this and treat these skills differently? Or does Dodge and Perception skill because necessary if you have any hope of accomplishing these feats? Or does having a high attribute allow you to say wield a katana even if you have no idea what you're doing? It's possible that SR4 addresses these concerns. ( One solution would be to give the dodge and perception skills free to every character, but if you want to improve it then you have to pay for the difference ) But the fact that both sample characters so far have the dodge and perception skill suggests that perhaps these skills are necessary so the character can perform these basic functions. SR3 had this problem as well but to a lesser degree. I can't recall a single character that didn't have the Ettiquette skill. Or at the very least I never accepted one. "What? Did he grow up in a box?") |
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Aug 18 2005, 04:56 PM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Cheops: Look at the table of contents of the BBB. They have extra sections for running, jumping, and other athletics.
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Aug 18 2005, 04:58 PM
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#71
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,420 Joined: 30-October 03 Member No.: 5,776 |
Being able to dodge effectively or perceive the little details are not things that typically come naturally.
Sure we all have some ability to dodge and perceive our environment, but unless we work at it (i.e train), we are simply relying on our gut reaction for dodge and our native intelligence for perceptions. That is why I don't see a problem with having Dodge and Perception as skills. A martial artist trains in how to avoid blows, a army grunt trains in what to do when he comes under fire, a police detective trains to be able to percieve important details, etc. |
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Aug 18 2005, 05:03 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Huh? I'd seen the odd Ettiquette-less characters. Yes, they also tended to be low Cha, socially stunted characters. But i fail to see how forcing PCs to take any given skill is a good tact? |
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Aug 18 2005, 05:04 PM
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#73
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Well thank god we don't have to wait for the companion this time for those basic parts of any RPG. Wow, living beings can move--maybe we should make rules for that! It would be like making a FPS where all you can do is move forwards or backwards. Perception and Dodge can't be treated differently from Blades and Electronics without sacrificing streamlined rules which is a stated design goal. Because then you'd have a group of skills that can be used untrained (Perception, Dodge, Etiquette, Negotiations, Stealth and Athletics) and those that can't be without penalty (Blades and Electronics). This creates two subsets of the rules. However, they are at least easy rules changes (not like maneuver score) and familiar to anyone who plays d20. And those ones I've listed as unskilled are pretty much inherent to about 90% of humanity coming from our prey animal background and social behaviour patterns so most people should be fairly good at them without any ranks. |
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Aug 18 2005, 05:09 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
Is anyone else slightly perplexed by the fact that it seems that this mage uses stim patches pretty cavalierly? Is it going too far to guess that the magic whack for using stims is removed?
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Aug 18 2005, 05:09 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Why not? They already have perception/memory tests: You know...where you look at a picture for a few seconds, then have to describe as much as you can, in detail? At least some police recieve training in this - makes for much more reliable eye-witness accounts. And if nothing else...a short stint as an editor (especially for continuity) will either improve your perception or get you fired. :D |
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