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imperialus
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/sr4/..._combatmage.pdf

Still average stats. Havn't had a chance to look closely but the artwork is damn cool.
Wireknight
In the future, everyone will be addicted to stimulants (I guess they don't damage magic use now) and everyone will have katanas! That's like having flying cars, but cooler, because katanas are cool!
Ranneko
And everyone will be an elf.

Damn elves.
SL James
Oh, yeah. Nice catch on the stimulants.
calypso
Now that there are two characters, we can get a rough idea of the cost in BP for active skills (and others).

From what I calculated (there's some error because of the specialty in Street for Etiquette), active skills cost 2 * the rank you're going to in BP, and active skill groups cost 4 * the rank you're going to.

For the Weapon Specialist, this comes out to 136 BP (6 short), and for the Combat Mage (not including the specialty) it comes to 120 BP.

What'd I miss?

Calypso
Sabosect
WTF is a mage doing with a katana? If he even sees melee battle, he's done something wrong. Hell, anyone with melee skill even gets near him he should set a land speed record for getting away.
SL James
Because Katanas are badass.

Oh, yeah. A mage addicted to simsense. I have now officially seem everything.
Raskolnikov
The missing area of California was actually strip mined and turned into millions of Katana, this flooded the market and now they can be purchased for 2 nuyen with a slushy at any Stuffer Shack.
Bandwidthoracle
Ok, so whats Devon OS?
Sabosect
It's like Ichi OS, only different.

I at least see most of my favorite spells made it. I wonder if they have deathtouch and allow me to make deathbolt?
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (Sabosect)
It's like Ichi OS, only different.

Did I miss something? Last I heard MPCP was the one true OS
Ellery
The mage has 35 attribute points total in 10 stats, costing 230bp. If the first point is free, that's 25 purchased attribute points; if elves get three stats free, that's 22 purchased attribute points. If we say the first point of magic is *not* free (i.e. you are allowed to have 0 magic, representing the potential to cast spells in the future but not the ability yet), then we have 23 points per bp. A flat cost of 10 fits.

If we're going with the 5 5 10 10 20 20 idea mentioned elsewhere, note that the stats are actually the same as for the weapon master (!) with two changes--a 3 became a 2, a 3 became a 4, and we have magic added on. We'd expect the base part to cost 185 points, and an extra 60 for magic, so the cost should be 245 points.

Conclusion: attributes cost a flat 10bp each up to 5 (with the first point free except for magic), unless magic works very differently than other attributes.

From the previous sheet, I concluded that skills cost 4bp per point, and skill groups cost 10bp per point. We have 23 ordinary skills, for a cost of 92bp, and we have a 3 skill group skills for a cost of 30 bp, leaving 122bp total. There is apparently a specialization of (street) on one skill, for two points. Thus we learn that specializations cost 1 bp per point, and that the previous 4bp/skill, 10bp/skill group works.

As was figured out last time, knowledge skills cost 1 per bp, and you get a native language for free, with other languages costing the same as other knowledge skills.

There are 8 spells, which cost 3bp each.

Becoming a magician is very inexpensive--only 15bp. In fact, magician + sensitive system makes getting magical ability free! Of course, it's not really free since the mage spend 50bp getting his magic up, and then another 62 bp on skills, and another 24 bp on spells (for a grand total of 136bp on magical ability), but one could spend much less--as little as 17bp to cast a single spell at minimal force. Unless there are no useful spells like that, one wonders why our weapon specialist didn't do this.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 18 2005, 12:54 AM)
It's like Ichi OS, only different.

Did I miss something? Last I heard MPCP was the one true OS

Yes, you did. The comm system for the weapons specialist uses Ichi OS, which is make by Renraku. The comm system in this case uses Devon OS. Basically, we're talking multiple OSes for the same device.
SL James
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Basically, we're talking multiple OSes for the same device.

Like Windows and PalmOS

Actually it's a Mangadyne Deva OS.

Another fine PPG-made product.

BTW, it's alot easier to open and read these PDFs if you convert them to JPEGs.

I wonder what Magesight Goggles are.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Ellery)
The mage has 35 attribute points total in 10 stats, costing 230bp. If the first point is free, that's 25 purchased attribute points; if elves get three stats free, that's 22 purchased attribute points. If we say the first point of magic is *not* free (i.e. you are allowed to have 0 magic, representing the potential to cast spells in the future but not the ability yet), then we have 23 points per bp. A flat cost of 10 fits.

If we're going with the 5 5 10 10 20 20 idea mentioned elsewhere, note that the stats are actually the same as for the weapon master (!) with two changes--a 3 became a 2, a 3 became a 4, and we have magic added on. We'd expect the base part to cost 185 points, and an extra 60 for magic, so the cost should be 245 points.

Conclusion: attributes cost a flat 10bp each up to 5 (with the first point free except for magic), unless magic works very differently than other attributes.

Logically, magic would have to work differently. Remember that traditional SR is that magic is optional. I doubt it's changed. In this case, we would end up with magic having a different cost system to reflect that it is different. It makes sense to have.

QUOTE
From the previous sheet, I concluded that skills cost 4bp per point, and skill groups cost 10bp per point.  We have 23 ordinary skills, for a cost of 92bp, and we have a 3 skill group skills for a cost of 30 bp, leaving 122bp total.  There is apparently a specialization of (street) on one skill, for two points.  Thus we learn that specializations cost 1 bp per point, and that the previous 4bp/skill, 10bp/skill group works.

As was figured out last time, knowledge skills cost 1 per bp, and you get a native language for free, with other languages costing the same as other knowledge skills.

There are 8 spells, which cost 3bp each.

Becoming a magician is very inexpensive--only 15bp.  In fact, magician + sensitive system makes getting magical ability free!  Of course, it's not really free since the mage spend 50bp getting his magic up, and then another 62 bp on skills, and another 24 bp on spells (for a grand total of 136bp on magical ability), but one could spend much less--as little as 17bp to cast a single spell at minimal force.  Unless there are no useful spells like that, one wonders why our weapon specialist didn't do this.


Hmm. So far, so good.
Sabosect
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 18 2005, 01:03 AM)
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Basically, we're talking multiple OSes for the same device.

Like Windows and PalmOS

Actually it's a Mangadyne Deva OS.

Another fine PPG-made product.

BTW, it's alot easier to open and read these PDFs if you convert them to JPEGs.

I wonder what MageGoggles are.

It says Deva on my screen. I'm just too lazy to look it up. More concerned with the spells.

But, what gets me is the wild variance in starting money.
Toa
Spells don't have force ratings anymore.

... what are Mage Googles?

And is my PDF the only one with a pretty low resolution?
Sabosect
QUOTE (Toa)
Spells don't have force ratings anymore.

... what are Mage Googles?

And is my PDF the only one with a pretty low resolution?

Increase the magnification. Resolution gets better.

As for spells: Roll your magic rating. Seems simple enough. The mage goggles I am unsure about, as if they were what I am used to he wouldn't want to be near them.
Raskolnikov
You're thinking of a mage hood.
Sabosect
There's another variant that works similar to a mage hood I've seen in some games. Except, these are usually permanently attached in some way.
Toa
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Increase the magnification. Resolution gets better.

Actually, it doesn't.
SL James
Actually, Magesight goggles are probably optical image magnification goggles.

Damn kids and their music.

The res is pretty low, but at least it loaded faster than the last couple of PDFs.
Toa
QUOTE (SL James)
Actually, Magesight goggles are probably optical image magnification goggles.

Distance has so far been of no concern for mages casting spells.
Toa
Another one: Perception is a skill! eek.gif love.gif
SL James
True.

Oooh! Smartlink equivalent! Yeah... That's it.

I am sorely disappointed at Perception and Dodge being skills now. I can only begin to imagine how Dodge works now that all combat is opposed.
JBlades
So I'm guessing starting pocket cash might be based off of Lifestyle?

It might be a flat 2 BP for a specialization, which always = +2, or it could be each level of spec costs 1 BP.

Also, languages being bought as Knowledge points seems to be confirmed.

Nice job last night Ellery!
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (SL James)
True.

Oooh! Smartlink equivalent! Yeah... That's it.

I am sorely disappointed at Perception and Dodge being skills now. I can only begin to imagine how Dodge works now that all combat is opposed.

seriously, dodge being a skill... probably the one that everyone will work on the most (except perhaps for the troll, who's massive size as a target probably doesn't fator in to that. NOt that it ever realyl did. Oh well).
Basically, is the best defense a good defense, or a good offense?
Darkness
QUOTE (Toa)
Distance has so far been of no concern for mages casting spells.

It had in the 2nd Ed. IIRC from 200 meters on your TN did increase. I don't have my books with me at the moment.
And i was dissapointed that this didn't carry over officially in the 3rd Ed. (Didn't stopped me from using the old table, though).
SL James
Yeah, but now that Dodge is a skill, I wonder if there's an Improved Ability (Dodge) power for Adepts.

I so hope there is.
Fizzygoo
QUOTE
In the future, everyone will be addicted to stimulants (I guess they don't damage magic use now)


Both the Weapons Specialist and the Combat Mage have 'Mild' addictions to 'stimulants'. Possibly tobacco? Hard to think of any other "mild" stimulants worth BPs, other than bad soycaf or caffeinated, hehe, fizzygoos.
Toa
I'm wondering if all metahumans have to take allergies again...
Raskolnikov
Smoking is not a build-point worthy disadvantage. Additionally the stimulant patches included in the characters' inventories suggest counter to your theory.
JBlades
QUOTE (Fizzygoo)

Both the Weapons Specialist and the Combat Mage have 'Mild' addictions to 'stimulants'. Possibly tobacco? Hard to think of any other "mild" stimulants worth BPs, other than bad soycaf or caffeinated, hehe, fizzygoos.

The addiction is mild, not necessarily the stimulant. They're probably refering to stim patches here, and the game effects of them not getting their patch for the day is a "mild" one.
JBlades
QUOTE (Toa)
I'm wondering if all metahumans have to take allergies again...

They look optional, since the characters are getting more points from taking the allergy.
Sabosect
Meh. To hell with my attempts to get a progression going on stats. Let's use Ellery's model until we find out the correct on.
Fizzygoo
QUOTE
Smoking is not a build-point worthy disadvantage. Additionally the stimulant patches included in the characters' inventories suggest counter to your theory.


I could only find the stim patches in the Combat mage's sheet. Didn't see it on the Weapon Specialist's inventory. But I don't know about smoking not being BP worthy. Even if the addiction is mild, but they're a chain-smoker, lighting up when doing recon or trying to be stealthy is very bad. You get the light and the smell.

As for the Stim patches in the Combat Mage, I have the feeling that they're medical -combat- in nature over feeding of the addiction, but without the book...who knows (theze konjectur iz fun, no? smile.gif ).

QUOTE
The addiction is mild, not necessarily the stimulant. They're probably refering to stim patches here, and the game effects of them not getting their patch for the day is a "mild" one.


Yeah. I forgot about that, the mild, moderate and severe levels of the 'old' (ha!) system. For about three months I've been running a game with all new players. So I left out edges and flaws and most of the variant stuff. Out of sight, out of mind.
PsionBoy
QUOTE (Fizzygoo)
As for the Stim patches in the Combat Mage, I have the feeling that they're medical -combat- in nature over feeding of the addiction, but without the book...who knows (theze konjectur iz fun, no?  smile.gif  ).

It's possible that the mage became addicted to the stim patches because he uses them often in combat.
blakkie
QUOTE (Raskolnikov @ Aug 18 2005, 01:38 AM)
Smoking is not a build-point worthy disadvantage.

Tell that to someone that is trying to quit. They are likely to punch you out. wink.gif

Coffee could be perhaps. People that down 10ish cups/day tend to experience headaches when they stop.
Athenor
To the person who said the mage shouldn't get into combat:

I dunno, this was always the way I pictured a low-hitting magic user to work... Go in with weapons blazing (and if all these guys are street level characters, I understand the Katanas, tho it really should be a different blade, smaller and easier to use)... and then when the enemy least expects it, hit them with the magic.

BTW: First thing I thought when I saw magelink was the augmented reality. Damn, wouldn't it be a trip to be able to see Augmented wireless Matrix AND the astral at the same time? Talk about a mind trip...
Sabosect
On the contrary, I think a mage should go into combat. However, I think the mage should also stay back away from the main fighting and focus on unleashing spells and potentially healing afterwards. A combat mage, IMHO, is one who will use combat spells and be skilled with a gun for when those are unreliable. Leave the melee to the sams.
Athenor
Yeah, the melee is questionable.

But then again, we've had weapon foci in the game before, aye?

You know.. I need to go about figuring out how to create a spell that would supercharge a weapon, either metal or wood (no plastics, -too- technologically advanced), to give it a one-time discharge like a capacitor for extra damage/punch. Perhaps I'll use that to play with the new magic book.
Sabosect
We have. However, it would be indicated as such. If it's not a focus, he shouldn't be meleeing with it.
Athenor
True enough.. which, TBH, is kinda weird. If this guy's all about damage ASAP.. a Katana would be the perfect candidate for a weapon focus. Maybe he ran out of points. *shrug*

You know, I've always wondered where these chars come from. It'd be kinda cool if the sample characters were, like, based from a playtester's group.. IE -- sorta like an honor to a playtester group or two, for their work, contributions, and the like. But then again, even to this day I consider getting my name even mentioned in an RPG book to be a huge personal honor. Not bloody likely to happen, but a guy can hope.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 18 2005, 02:30 AM)
We have. However, it would be indicated as such. If it's not a focus, he shouldn't be meleeing with it.

Or maybe he is learning till he is able to afford the weapon foci, and doesn't want to 'waste' learning a ranged weapon that he'll eventually abandon. Previously weapon foci were some terrible expensive, so it might still take some time to save up for one.

EDIT: Or this is just one more of the sample PC cripples that litter the RPG rulebook landscape. dead.gif
Sabosect
In which case he can save the money spent on a katana for another weapon and practice with a friend's, preferably the kindly street sam of the group.
Athenor
Oh, come on Sabosect.

These guys are supposed to be drag & drop characters at best. Who's to garuntee there'd even be a street sam in the group? =P

If anything, a properly made Katana should be -expensive-, especially with the recent turmoil and Japan and California (yes, stereotyped, but when I hear katana I expect certain things. =P )... Again, probably why they are buying it now...
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect)
In which case he can save the money spent on a katana for another weapon and practice with a friend's, preferably the kindly street sam of the group.

How often do you build characters that plan to rely on semi-permanently borrowing equipment from team members? Meta-gaming issues aside, my limited experience with semi-permanently loaning between PCs is that such items usually just end up getting written right into the borrower's equipment list anyway.
Sabosect
Yes, they are buying it now. However, at the same time, they have a weapon they really can't use except for training and in most situations they won't have a chance to use it before the opposing enemy has already sliced off their arm.

In any case, I was never talking about semi-permanent borrowing. You borrow, train, return. And in cases of what we are talking about, all evidence we currently have points to the possibility that every damned sample character is going to have a katana. That means that, ten to one, this guy knows someone who has one. He may have to trade favors for the training and practicing the weapon.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 18 2005, 02:45 AM)
Yes, they are buying it now. However, at the same time, they have a weapon they really can't use except for training and in most situations they won't have a chance to use it before the opposing enemy has already sliced off their arm.

Strange, i could have sworn we were still taking about SR. We definately are not talking about the same game. In the one i play mages are allowed to cut up people with mundane swords.
Sabosect
We are. Reflex enhancements + better weapon proficiencies + called shot + character built for melee = Armless mage.
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