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> Figuring out chargen costs, Back to the drawing board.
Sabosect
post Aug 18 2005, 10:35 PM
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Okay, Ellery's math model was fine. Then, I checked something and realized we've been going about this the wrong way. So, we must restart. The first step is to throw out all of the math we have done so far.

Our first step is to consult the FAQs. The following two quotes apply:

QUOTE
A. Skills and attributes range from 1 to 6, with 3 being average. So an average skill, average attribute dice pool is 6 dice. Purchasing above-average attributes and skills is limited at character creation and generally expensive. 6 is the maximum natural rating for attributes (before racial modifiers are applied).


QUOTE
A. Yes. Specifically, we have expanded them:
– Intelligence has been split into Intuition and Logic
– Quickness has been split into Agility and Reaction
– Obviously, Reaction is no longer a derived attribute
– Karma Pool has been replaced by an Edge attribute. Edge is used in many similar ways as Karma Pool was–it is still a “luck factor,” but it is now an attribute rather than a mark of experience. This makes it especially useful to non-cyber and non-magic characters, as they will have a way of keeping ahead of the game.
– Magic no longer starts at 6. Magic must be bought up just like any other attribute. This means that magical characters are not as powerful right out of the box as they were in previous editions.


That second one is important because it tells us Magic will follow the same style as the rest of the attributes.

Now, using the above information, we have two characters to work with. Links:

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/sr4/...nspecialist.pdf
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/sr4/..._combatmage.pdf

Tonight, we may get lucky and have a third. In any case, using the information from the FAQs, we have to assume that the costs for over 3 are not the same as the costs for up to 3. This means a potential progressive-cost system. Now, let's see what we can work out using the information at hand.

First, the obvious:

Money is $5000 per BP. Contacts cost one BP per point in rating. Being a magician costs 15 BP. Starting Nuyen ranges for some reason.

So, at this point I will be trying my hand at a progression that accounts for all of the information at hand. At the same time, I hope others will help.

Edit: A, R, and C appear to be increased by racial bonuses.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 18 2005, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 18 2005, 05:35 PM)
First, the obvious:

[…]Contacts cost one BP per point in rating.

That's not obvious. Until we get something other than a Connected-2/Loyal-2 contact, that's a wild-ass guess.

Other possibilities range from Connected * Loyal to Connected ^ Loyal.

~J
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blakkie
post Aug 18 2005, 11:00 PM
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The two PCs you have to work with are too much alike, yet too different. Basically there are too many variables vs. knowns.
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Arcys
post Aug 18 2005, 11:17 PM
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The thing that bothers me is that the initiative of the two characters are different.
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SL James
post Aug 18 2005, 11:25 PM
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Actually, the BP for Contacts is probably 2 per point, unless they stopped giving two free Contacts at chargen.
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Ellery
post Aug 19 2005, 12:42 AM
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It doesn't say how above average you have to be before it's "expensive". Given that the flat model works fine up to 5, I'd say 6 is the magic number for expensiveness, if there is a magic number. They may just mean that you can't get enough points to raise many stats to 6, so averaged over all your stats, the mean is 3 or so. They may not have understood the mathematical implications of their own system when they wrote that paragraph, or might not have been speaking with mathematical precision but rather laying out their vision for how they viewed things happening.

Also, we can't tell if there's a limit on the number of attributes that are above 3. The sample characters shown have at most 4 attributes above three (not counting magic). There might be some limit to that effect, which would fit the quote, but wouldn't invalidate the flat 10bp attribute cost per point between 1 and 5. Likewise with skills.

Anyway, you're welcome to come up with other schemes, but given the small number of degrees of freedom in the problem, and given that a solution already exists that fits most statements pretty well and is consistent with design goals, I'm not going to waste the time personally.

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Cain
post Aug 19 2005, 05:47 AM
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Actually, it does say that "above average" attributes are expensive, so that indicates a progressive cost with a step at 3 or 4, excluding racial modifiers. (Presumably, racial mods are still a straight addition.) However, we haven't confirmed that costs above 3 are the same as the ones below-- and there's good indication that they don't.

Your 10 BP flat cost seems to work well for the weapons "specialist", but she doesn't seem to have any unmodified stats above 3. We'd need to look at the combat mage, who has an extra 2 stats above 3, and one stat below it. Now, assuming that the 15 BP to be a magician pays for the first point of Magic, from there on we can assume it probably advances like any other stat.

The combat mage has spent an additional 50 points to gain a total of +4 to his attributes: +1 Willpower, +4 Magic, -1 Edge. Again, assuming the 10 BP per level up to 3, that means the extra stats actually cost 60 points-- so we're looking at a 60:5 ratio, or roughly 12 points per extra stat point.

Of course, it probably isn't that even. If we assume Magic costs 10 per level up to 3, like everything else, we end up with a 40:3 ratio, or 13.3 BP per point. If we assume that BP's have to be spent in whole numbers, we're faced with a bunch of unappealling splits. The best split I can think of is 10 points to advance Will and Magic from 3 to 4, and then 20 points to advance Magic from 4 to 5. That doesn't make too much sense either, since stats above 3 are supposed to be expensive, but it does work.

Edit: Initiative appears to be Reaction + Willpower, although it could be Agility as well. Since both characters have identical Agility and Reaction stats, it's hard to be sure; but my money is on Reaction.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 19 2005, 05:56 AM
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Lucky could be a variable-cost edge affecting Edge, dropping that from the list of purchased stats…

~J
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Garwyn
post Aug 19 2005, 06:38 AM
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I can see 2 scenarios for attribute costs that would work with both sample sheets currently released. Both Scenarios work on the assumption that there are no 'free points' from race, rather that race modifies the minimum and maximum allowable rating at which attributes can be set. The math adds up for both with the given examples, but I think the second is more likely.

Scenario 1 BP Cost:
Rating 1-4 = 6 * Rating
Rating 5-6 = 10 * Rating

Scenario 2 BP Cost:
Rating 1-3 = 5 * Rating
Rating 4+ = 5 * (Rating * 1.5 rounded up)

I'm still working on reverse engineering the active skills.
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Sabosect
post Aug 19 2005, 06:46 AM
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Neither one adds up. An attribute rating of 3 costs 20 points total. There are only 9 attributes.
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Garwyn
post Aug 19 2005, 06:58 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect)
Neither one adds up. An attribute rating of 3 costs 20 points total. There are only 9 attributes.

First off, Magic is a 10th attribute from what I've read...it can simply be set at a 0 if you're mundane.

Second, I've prepared a spreadsheet to show how it adds up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/Kyn...tt_costs-t1.jpg
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Sabosect
post Aug 19 2005, 07:02 AM
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Okay. I'll concede.
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Cain
post Aug 19 2005, 07:38 AM
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The only problem I can see with the spreadsheet is that you assume there are no "free" points, while most other layouts assume you get the first point in each attribute for free. I've also seen no indication that you can have a Magic of zero-- presumably, you get *something* for your 15 points to become magcially active in the first place.
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Sabosect
post Aug 19 2005, 07:51 AM
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Cain, he stated that when he came up with his figures.
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Garwyn
post Aug 19 2005, 07:52 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 19 2005, 02:38 AM)
The only problem I can see with the spreadsheet is that you assume there are no "free" points, while most other layouts assume you get the first point in each attribute for free.  I've also seen no indication that you can have a Magic of zero-- presumably, you get *something* for your 15 points to become magcially active in the first place.

I've never looked at chargen in SR3 as 'the first point is free'. Admittedly in SR3 racial modifiers are 'free points' when +'s....but in every game I've ever played you still had to use 1 point for a rating 1 in an attribute, and you could never start a character without at least a rating 1. In SR3, a human with 30 Attribute points could have their 6 skills layed out as 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 for 30 points total, not as all 6's as a 'first point is free' would seem to indicate. From my understanding and perspective, the divergence from the normal way of doing this would be in substituting 'free points from race' in exchange for 'racial adjustments to allowable attribute range'.

As for magic rating, the FAQ clearly indicated that Magic will work like any other attribute for mages and must be purchased at a specific rating in chargen.

The only presumption I make about the 15 points spent to become magically active is that it allows the character to have the 10th attribute and to take spells/magic related skills.. Those without that quality have an effective magic attribute of 0.
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blakkie
post Aug 19 2005, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Garwyn @ Aug 19 2005, 01:52 AM)
As for magic rating, the FAQ clearly indicated that Magic will work like any other attribute for mages and must be purchased at a specific rating in chargen.

It doesn't specify that it will cost the same BP as other attributes though. Same for Edge.

Also i believe it came out of the discusions of the Origins demo that you buy Magic up from 1.
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Ellery
post Aug 19 2005, 06:10 PM
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Both proposed schemes make raising from 5 to 6 cheaper than raising from 4 to 5, which is a little odd if you're trying to avoid 6s. Also, I doubt that racial modifiers only let you buy up higher, because trolls wouldn't have enough points to buy that high, and you'd see trolls with scores of 3 in everything (which would be really weird).

Other than that, it seems to work out.
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tisoz
post Aug 19 2005, 06:21 PM
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It costs 10 points per attribute point, with the first point free and the final 6th point costing 25.

Maximum points allocated to attributes is capped at 50% of total points.

Edge is bought like other attributes.
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Kagetenshi
post Aug 19 2005, 06:24 PM
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Woah, wait, so the sixth point just jumps by 2.5* cost for no real reason?

~J
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JongWK
post Aug 19 2005, 06:24 PM
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EDIT: Nevermind.

This post has been edited by JongWK: Aug 19 2005, 06:30 PM
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Ellery
post Aug 19 2005, 06:25 PM
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Five is the new six.

Also, the combat mage is a 400 point character who spends more than half of that on attributes. I guess they don't need to follow their own rules for character creation, or magic doesn't count as an attribute when obeying the "half" rule.
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mintcar
post Aug 19 2005, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE
Woah, wait, so the sixth point just jumps by 2.5* cost for no real reason?


Could the reason be that it´s the absolute pinnacle of human ability?
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tisoz
post Aug 19 2005, 06:28 PM
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Sorry. The half rule is for physical and mental attributes.
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JongWK
post Aug 19 2005, 06:29 PM
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Doh, Tisoz is right. Forgot about that detail.
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Sabosect
post Aug 19 2005, 06:31 PM
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And the costs for skill points?
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