Shadowrun 4: Magic - Dumpshock Forums

Shadowrun 4: Magic

CrystalBlue View Member Profile	Sep 9 2005, 12:29 PM Post #226
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 16-June 05 Member No.: 7,450	I'm still not 100% clear on when a mage can and cannot cast through vision magnification. What it seems like to me is that a mage must have direct LOS to cast any spell. If they can't see it, they can't cast on it. Problem is, I don't know what this could mean. The only way a mage can cast spells into area's they can't directly see is through fiber-optics. Does this mean, for example, a mage with binocs can't cast at something that's many meters away? And with cyberware, if they were to get cyber-eye replacements, could they still cast? They way I inturperate this is mages can't cast when the visual they are given is an electronic signal rather then a biological or physical. So, cybereyes would mean a mage can never cast a spell, as the eyes are electronic. And what about seeing around corners or such through a mirror?

hahnsoo

Sep 9 2005, 08:47 PM

Post #227

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QUOTE (CrystalBlue)

I'm still not 100% clear on when a mage can and cannot cast through vision magnification.

Technological visual aids that use an electronic feed or magical visual aids that substitute for your sense cannot be used. You can use mirrors or fiberoptics, as long as the image isn't processed, at a -3 dice pool penalty. p324

QUOTE

And with cyberware, if they were to get cyber-eye replacements, could they still cast? They way I inturperate this is mages can't cast when the visual they are given is an electronic signal rather then a biological or physical. So, cybereyes would mean a mage can never cast a spell, as the eyes are electronic.

The standard explanation for it is the fact that since you've paid essence for the cybereye, it counts as your "natural" sense and thus can be used for the purposes of spellcasting. p173

Superbum

Sep 12 2005, 02:57 PM

Post #228

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QUOTE (WhiteRabbit)

Anyone notice any spells that fall into the old "why cast above force 1?" argument? In my quick read through I've noticed that Shapechange seems to. Are there any others?

IIRC, The force of the spell limits the amount of hits you can score. If you cast a spell at Force 1 and get 5 hits, you only "use" 1 hit.

apple

Sep 12 2005, 03:00 PM

Post #229

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QUOTE ("SR GBB 171")

A spell’s Force limits the number of hits (not net hits)
that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test. So if you cast
a Force 3 spell and get 5 hits, only 3 of those hits count.

SYL

Superbum View Member Profile	Sep 12 2005, 03:03 PM Post #230
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097	Thanks, Apple.

apple

Sep 12 2005, 03:06 PM

Post #231

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Sep 9 2005, 07:29 AM)

I'm still not 100% clear on when a mage can and cannot cast through vision magnification.

Concrete examples:

Infrared/thermographic => not possible, except in cybereyes
low light => not possible, except in cybereyes
visual magnification (optical) => possible, if bought in the optical, not in the electronic version
visual enhancement => possible (imho) because it is not a new "sense" like IR, just a better normal sense.
ultrasound => not possible, except in cybereyes (why is that thing headware anyway?)

SYL

sapphire_wyvern

Sep 12 2005, 11:00 PM

Post #232

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QUOTE (apple)

QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 9 2005, 03:47 PM)

QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Sep 9 2005, 07:29 AM)

I'm still not 100% clear on when a mage can and cannot cast through vision magnification.

Concrete examples:

Infrared/thermographic => not possible, except in cybereyes
low light => not possible, except in cybereyes

Or if your metatype has these as natural benefits, of course!

QUOTE

visual magnification (optical) => possible, if bought in the optical, not in the electronic version

Or presumably either if it is cyberware, according to the usual logic.

QUOTE

visual enhancement => possible (imho) because it is not a new "sense" like IR, just a better normal sense.
ultrasound => not possible, except in cybereyes (why is that thing headware anyway?)

SYL

sapphire_wyvern

Sep 12 2005, 11:15 PM

Post #233

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QUOTE (NeoJudas)

QUOTE (hahnsoo)

QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Aug 24 2005, 01:48 PM)

Initiation is 10 + ((Target/Would-Be) Grade x 3).

As for the Adept, it would be 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, etc... if I've read the book correctly.

But you'd still have to pay for the Karma cost of the increased Magic attribute, so it would be an additional 21, 24, 27, 30, etc. So really, to get powers above Magic 6, it would be a total cost (including Initiation and buying the Magic attribute) of 34, 40, 46, etc., adding 6 each time.

Ah yeah, I keep forgetting that about the new rules. This is one that we are "House Ruling" out of existance, or at least altering pretty quickly for ourselves. It is of interest that the Core Book does not mention the ability to buy additional Power Points with just Karma as in the 3rd Ed rules.

I disagree.

You get a Power Points when you buy an extra point of Magic, right?

So there's your "Power Points for Karma" trade-in right there.

Of course, if you choose to make the (hefty) initial investment to start with Magic 6, then your opportunities for future growth are going to be very expensive. That's the price of starting with a lot of power.

Magic is a very powerful attribute in SR4, as well as being the only attribute with a soft cap. I for one see no reason to hand out points of it at discount rates.

sapphire_wyvern

Sep 12 2005, 11:22 PM

Post #234

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QUOTE (Magnus Jakobsson)

The new armor rules will probably make stun damage more widespread. Is it still impossible to heal stun damage with magic?

QUOTE (Bull)

Initiation gives you access to a metamagic ability and raises your Magic Attribute Cap, but does not raise your actual Magic Attribute, as noted by others.

Does this mean that after earning his first 6 power points (the ones he started with in SR3), the adept must pay 34, 40, 46 etc. karma for more powers?

Sorry for nitpicking, but I just wanted to be clear on this.

- Magnus

This is true.

On the other hand, being an Adept now costs a massive 5 BP out of 400 IIRC, as opposed to (approximately) 25 out of 125.

Being an adept is cheap. Being an adept who has fully exploited the magic he/she was born with, and has no potential for further learning outside initiation, is now expensive. Being more powerful that *that* is *really* expensive.

sapphire_wyvern

Sep 12 2005, 11:35 PM

Post #235

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QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 22 2005, 03:04 PM)

QUOTE (Babel @ Aug 21 2005, 11:47 PM)

How has Increase Reflexes changed with SR4? Is there still multiple versions of it (+1-3)?

What metamagic powers are available and what benefits do they provide?

How has astral perception and projection changed?

Increase Reflexes: The effects are now identical to Wired Reflexes and the Adept version of Wired, so + to both Initative and Passes. There is only one version of the spell now, and it appears you choose which "bonus" you want to cast at. Each increase has a higher Threshold you have to meet, and +3 is teh highest it can go.
Bull

Hmm. My interpretation was that the caster casts the spell, and then depending on the threshold actually achieved, generates a particular level of bonus. This could use some clarification.

For those who care:
Threshold 2 = Wired Reflexes 1
Threshold 3 = Wired Reflexes 2
Threshold 4 = Wired Reflexes 3

The rule that says you can't get more hits than Force means that the spell must be cast at >= Force 2 for any effect at all and at least Force 4 for full effect.

sapphire_wyvern

Sep 12 2005, 11:40 PM

Post #236

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QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 09:46 PM)

Each sustained spell gives you -2 Dice for all of your actions.

The Focused Concentration Quality no longer halves this penalty.

Instead, it comes in levels, and adds one die to your Drain Resistance tests per level.

There doesn't seem to be a Quality that mitigates sustained spell (or bound spirit) penalties, so Sustaining Foci and bound spirits in moderation are the way to go for your spell sustaining needs.

Of course, with the new core mechanic, sustaining several spells at once now gives you a large but not impossible modifier. Shadowrun's modifiers are now much more linear; -6 is three times as bad as -2, unlike the the difference between +2 TN and +6 TN.

Prospero View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 12:59 AM Post #237
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700	I've just been catching up on this thread, been offline for a good while, but I remember some post about Aspected Magicians no longer existing, but you could make Adepts with spellcasting abilities or someting (I guess like Magician's Way Adepts in SR3). What about conjurors? I have a hermetic conjuror I'd really like to convert and keep playing. Am I screwed and going to have to just make a magician and then simply not buy any spellcasting skills (which seems like such a waste). Or... well, what?

MortVent View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 01:13 AM Post #238
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 446 Joined: 16-May 03 Member No.: 4,598	mystical adpets are the aspected ones. But for each point in magicial power counts as thier magic rating for conjuring and sorcery. Still got ot buy astral percetption at 1 power point to percieve, and no projection.

Fortune

Sep 13 2005, 03:57 AM

Post #239

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QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern)

There doesn't seem to be a Quality that mitigates sustained spell (or bound spirit) penalties, so Sustaining Foci and bound spirits in moderation are the way to go for your spell sustaining needs.

While there isn't a Quality that accomplishes this, the drug Psyche halves the sustaining penalty (among other things).

Speaking of which, are there any prices listed for drugs like Psyche (ie. non-combat drugs)?

Elldren

Sep 13 2005, 04:03 AM

Post #240

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QUOTE (Fortune)

Speaking of which, are there any prices listed for drugs like Psyche (ie. non-combat drugs)?

None that I've seen... started a thread on it and hopefully we can get some answers on that

Superbum

Sep 13 2005, 01:53 PM

Post #241

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QUOTE

I've just been catching up on this thread, been offline for a good while, but I remember some post about Aspected Magicians no longer existing, but you could make Adepts with spellcasting abilities or someting (I guess like Magician's Way Adepts in SR3). What about conjurors? I have a hermetic conjuror I'd really like to convert and keep playing. Am I screwed and going to have to just make a magician and then simply not buy any spellcasting skills (which seems like such a waste). Or... well, what?

Buying the magician quality doesn't grant you any spells anyways as you still are required to purchase those (at 3BP per spell, up to a max of (Spellcasting x 2) IIRC). If you want to be a caster and just summon spells, then just buy the magician quality and you are set.

QUOTE

mystical adpets are the aspected ones.

Not entirely true.

QUOTE

But for each point in magicial power counts as thier magic rating for conjuring and sorcery.

There is no adept power called Magical Power anymore. When you purchase the quality, Mystical Adept, you have to specify how you are going to split your Magic rating between Adept and Magician. If you had 6 Magic and decided to split it up for 4 for Mage and 2 for Adept then you would start with 2 points of Adept powers and could cast spells up to Force 4 (or up to Force 8 if you dont mind phyiscal drain). Later, if you spend karma to raise your magic rating you need to specify if it will go towards being a magician or an adept. For other purposes and test, your magic rating still counts as 6.

QUOTE

Still got ot buy astral percetption at 1 power point to percieve, and no projection.

Correct. Mystic Adepts can percieve but they need to buy the adept power in order to do it.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 03:38 PM Post #242
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	If you only want to play a caster, Incompetence in all skills of the Conjuring Groups seems a good way to to so.

Prospero View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 03:42 PM Post #243
Illuminate of the New Dawn Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700	Hmm. Interesting. Thanks for the info. Also, one of the other threads around here (the Spirit on, I think) seemed to imply that all summoners, hermetic and shamanic and whoever else, can summon spirits like shamans did in SR3 and like hermetics did - one involves just summoning and the other involves binding, too, at spirit's F*2? Finally, somebody said something about beast spirits or something? What kinds of spirits exist in SR3? I assume there are still good ol' elementals around - are shamanic spirits changed a lot? And do the traiditions change at all - as in shamans still summon their whole list and hermetics still summon elementals? Thanks in advance.

Prospero

Sep 13 2005, 03:44 PM

Post #244

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Rotbart van Dainig

QUOTE

If you only want to play a caster, Incompetence in all skills of the Conjuring Groups seems a good way to to so.

Other way around, actually. I have a hermetic conjuror I want to convert. But point taken, I could just take incompetence in all the spellcasting skills. Not a bad idea, thanks.

Superbum View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 03:51 PM Post #245
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097	Yeah, they all pretty much summon the same spirits now except for their "5th element". IIRC, hermetics summon spirits of man while shamans summon spirits of beasts. FYI, Shamans don't automatically get totemic bonuses anymore. There is a quality called mentor spirit that gives those bonuses now and its not exclusive to shamans (hermetics can take the quality as well).

Spookymonster

Sep 13 2005, 04:06 PM

Post #246

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QUOTE (Prospero)

Rotbart van Dainig

QUOTE

If you only want to play a caster, Incompetence in all skills of the Conjuring Groups seems a good way to to so.

Other way around, actually. I have a hermetic conjuror I want to convert. But point taken, I could just take incompetence in all the spellcasting skills. Not a bad idea, thanks.

Taking Incompetance for any Conjuring skill would be a pointless exercise in Munchkinism. You'd basically be getting 15BP for not being able to default 3 skills that you wouldn't be able to default with anyway.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 04:07 PM Post #247
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	If I'm not totally mistaken, Incompetence also removed the ability to ever learn the skill?

Superbum View Member Profile	Sep 13 2005, 05:21 PM Post #248
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097	Good question. I just know you no longer need ranks in the skill. So incompetance, like said above, is a great munchkin tool.

Rotbart van Dain...

Sep 13 2005, 05:28 PM

Post #249

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QUOTE (SR4 p. 82 Incompetent)

Characters may not possess that skill, nor may they default on it.

So, actually, it is not munchkin at all, if you want to simulate aspected magicians.

In fact, one can create now pure AntiMages. ;)

Spookymonster

Sep 13 2005, 05:39 PM

Post #250

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

If I'm not totally mistaken, Incompetence also removed the ability to ever learn the skill?

True, but if your character concept doesn't use conjuring in the first place, is this really a limitation worthy of extra BPs? The inability to default is the key to this flaw/quality; the inability to get rid of the flaw by buying the skill is a secondary effect.

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