Shadowrun 4: Magic Options

[FrankTrollman]

[RunnerPaul]

Frank, I want you to know, you officially scare me.

[Azralon]

*cries*

[blakkie]

[Azralon]

Both valid points.

[blakkie]

[FrankTrollman]

Any other magic-types people want converted? It isn't very hard.

-Frank

[Azralon]

I quote the moral from many sci-fi tragedies:

"Just because you can do a thing, does not mean you should do a thing."

:D

[Gothic Rose]

[Eyeless Blond]

Have you considered doing Ally spirits Frank?

[FrankTrollman]

[elbows]

I had to do a quick version of ally spirits to convert an SR3 character in my campaign. I basically decided that ally spirits are ordinary spirits that are bound permanently. They can't cast spells anymore, and their manifest forms have to fit with the type of spirit.

The character I was converting had an ally spirit that manifest as a cat (2 forms: housecat and panther), and she had never really developed the sorcery powers -- the spirit only knew the 1 spell it started with. So I converted it as a permanently bound beast spirit of the same force.

Of course, this is a lot different than the old version of ally spirits, and it won't let you make dikoted AVS ally spirits :)
But it's very streamlined and avoids introducing a whole new type of spirit with different powers.

I didn't do creation rules since I was just converting a character, and I haven't really thought about how ally spirit improvement will work yet.

[Feshy]

[Azralon]

[FrankTrollman]

I seriously don't see how you can even make the argument that Bear gives you bonuses to resist overcasting drain. The procedure for drain is that you make a drain resistance check against the Drain Value, and the Drain Value is subsequently applied as damage. At no time do you ever make a damage resistance test, so bonuses to resisting damage are useless. The Bear Totem no more assists in drain reduction than bone density augmentation does.

-Frank

[Feshy]

[Eyeless Blond]

It's not damage until the Drain Resistance test is already done. The text pretty clearly states that you do the Drain Resistance test to lower the drain value, and whatever is not resisted is applied directly as either Stun or Physical damage. A Drain Resistance test is not a damage resistance test, because the Drain doesn't become actual damage until after the Resistance test.

It's a subtle distinction, yes, but it's pretty clearly stated in the rule excerpt you quoted.

Oh, and the reason that Bone Density is worded differently is because it applies against Stun damage resistance tests as well.

[Azralon]

Feshy, I thank you for typing out the exact adventure in rule-seeking that I went on. :) I also appreciate that you ended up in the same place that I did.

I could thematically justify the ability to overcast with less risk by saying Bear is just that tough or otherwise heedless of his personal safety. He's a berserker, after all. From a game-balance standpoint, it'd make a Bear healer really darn good in a clutch healing situation.

As I (think I) mentioned, I'm fine with summarizing the situation to my players with "Drain Resistance is not Damage Resistance." Bear is fine with keeping you alive when you've been shot, but if you're melting your own brain that's your problem.

I just wanted to make sure that line of reasoning wouldn't bite me in the ass later.

[FrankTrollman]

now, from a game balance point of view, I honestly don't have a problem with Bear giving you extra drain resistance dice for the purposes of Overcasting. It's 2 dice, which only has a 5/9 chance of reducing the drain you actually suffer in any way.

Since overcasting a spell doesn't normally produce less drain than not overcasting it does, any follower of Bear who might be tempted to overcast for the extra drain resistance wouldn't need those extra two dice to cast the spell normally without suffering drain. All in all, it seems a tempest in a teapot. If you want to allow Bear Mentors to give bonus dice to resist drain, go for it. In fact, the rules for berserking are so bad (and always have been), that I seriously have not seen any player character actually have a Bear Totem since first edition. Bear needs all the help it can get.

I just don't think that the RAW actually supports them having that ability. (but I'll probably let them have it in any game I run)

-Frank

[Shemhazai]

Heal Spell Clarifications and Exploits

[Eyeless Blond]

Re: Clairification 1: The Force of the Heal spell is whatever you want it to be. In this case all it alters is the maximum number of hits and whether Drain is physical or stun. Note that it doesn't have anything to do with how long the spell must be sustained; as your quote indicates that's the domain of the Drain Value (DV), not the Forse (though those are usually connected).

C-2: I dunno; isn't there a minimum Drain Value? I don't think the designers allow Drain to go to 0; it probably bottoms out at 1, which means 1 CT to sustain before becoming permenant.

E-1: Yes, and you'd be (mostly) out of the combat for 3 Combat Turns to pull this off as well. One CT to cast; 2 more to sustain. Well, the second 2 CTs you can put the spell into a focus, or a bound spirit, or just take -2 dice to all actions, but it's still a consideration. What's the problem with that?

E-2: Yeah, well at touch range this is a bit impractical. It's especially bad as most of your team won't want to cluster too close unless they want to get grenaded. If you want I suppose you can design an LOS Heal spell with a higher DV, but then you're not getting as much benefit from it, and you have to spend Karma on that spell as well.

So, yeah. Of course mages with 5+ initiate grades are going to be powerful; given how much you have to pay in karma for that the mundanes will have all attributes at 6 and most skills doing all right.

[Shemhazai]

Thank you for that! Now if I clarify myself we will be on the same page.

C-2 was about using hits from the Sorcery + Magic test to lower the number of turns needed to sustain it. I was just wondering if skilled sorcerers could make it effectively an instant spell with permanent effects.

E-1: The overcast spell was something like a Stunball at level 12. 12 / 2 + 1 = 7, with a drain resistance roll of 3 successes. Physical drain of 4 points. Round 1 of being out of combat is casting Heal on yourself. With your info, I decide to cast it at force 12 as well. With 12 dice I hope I can get 4 successes. If not, I am still a tad wounded. If I get more, I shorten the amount of time I need to sustain the spell. That drain is 4 - 2 = 2 (the minimum drain is 2, by the way). I think I can get two successes on drain resistance. I do have -2 two dice for four turns, though unless I was lucky.

It's not as bad as I thought. The example shows how hard it is to dramtically heal a character.

E-2: You are totally right about this. I was thinking I could make touch-only attacks on my teammates, but that does leave us vulnerable.

Here are two more things for the magic thread:

Exploit 3: You (the sorcerer) and your team blitz the enemy army. (This is because my gamemaster would always have the enemy army hiding behind trash cans, bushes or in shadows. Otherwise I would always knock them out as my first action.) By bum-rushing them you can get a look at them, because their cover is blown. Then you cast the mother of all stunballs while everyone is engaged in melee combat, right on top of their team your team and yourself. You counterspell for the good guys. If they have a counterspeller this will not work.

Remember, a level 3 combat counterspelling focus can be bound at character creation for only 6 BP!! And with the skill, and maybe even shielding, that could be 9 or more additional dice each character for everybody you want (and can see) to resist spells!

Exploit 4: Spend NO points at character creation on Physical or Mental attributes. Get all the raise attribute and initiative spells. Cast them after you have initiated to level 1 (choose quickening). Have 7 Karma available. Conjure and bind a spirit. Then cast the spell, rolling edge, and using the Aid Sorcery task. Many dice, rerolling sixes. With a little luck, you have have 9 or more hits (edge dice unrestricted by force of spell, page 172), raising your 1 stat to 9. Repeat whenever you get 7 Karma until you have maximum in everything. You did this spendind something like 100 Karma, and zero BP. Here is the kicker, the number of dice your spell gets to resist dispelling attempts is Force + Karma spent + Magic. Their net successes counteract your successes. Then they roll drain. This one is really sick. I think it should be made less useful by making people spend at least 1/4 BP on physical and mental attributes.

[elbows]

[hyzmarca]

[Shemhazai]

The idea is to get skills that add dice to most of the things you do. I haven't gone over a list of all the attribute-only rolls, so it may be infeasible.

Dodge for ranged attacks is Reaction + Dodge. Defending melee attacks is Raction + Weapon Skill (if armed) or Reaction + Unarmed Combat or Reaction + Dodge. Full dodge adds Dodge again to that number. Full Parry adds their appropriate combat skill. Gymnastics Dodge adds gymnastics rating.

Drain would be a serious bitch starting off. Maybe the character should have either Logic or Intuition to one point less than max (and get some free knowledge skill points at the same time.)

It is the attribute-only tests that would suffer the most initially. Like rolling Body to resist damage.

Thank you for bringing up those points, and especially the one about the spells ending unexpectedly. They get additional dice equal to the Karma spent to quicken them. The Karma limit is double the Force of the spell. So a force 7 spell would get from 14-21 resistance dice depending on how much Karma was spent (7-14). For dispelling tests add you Magic rating to that pile of dice. That's for each spell.