 Shadowrun 4: Magic |
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 Oct 27 2005, 03:57 PM
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#351
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813  |
you can reroll sixes from non-edge dice provided you declared you were spending edge before you made the test, iirc.
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Oct 27 2005, 10:48 PM
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#352
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
But it's not the re-rolling sixes that's important, its the unlimited hits. If you allow spending edge to remove the hit cap completely, many spells are effectively boosted to Force 20 by spending a point of edge on the casting roll. |
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Oct 28 2005, 06:58 AM
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#353
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I was actually just looking that up the other day, and was happy to see that rule tossed in. I like it , since, to my knowledge, there is no such limit on firearms.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a powerfoci, it can go higher, because power foci also boost your effective magic attribute still, so you can cast a higher force spell, correct? But that is NOT possible with a spellcasting foci since it only gives you more spell casting dice, not magic. |
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Oct 28 2005, 07:06 AM
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#354
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It's actually not possible with the SR4 Power Focus either. The Power Focus adds dice to any test that adds your magic, but it doesn't actually add anything to your magic attribute. This stands in marked contrast to the SR3 version, which added to your magic attribute and also added dice to any task that used a magical skill. I'm not entirely sure why the change (except possibly the fact that the limit of magic items by magic attribute is a basic, rather than optional rule in SR4). -Frank |
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Oct 28 2005, 07:37 AM
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#355
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
thanks, that's what I was looking for. I didn't recall it actually saying that it adds to the magic attribute, so those two just blurred together. Thanks for the clarification. So nice to be a human spellcaster now, with that +1 edge.
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Oct 31 2005, 10:13 AM
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#356
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
Perhaps I don't follow what you are saying. The only thing I can think of that would limit the spellcasting dice pool to one hit would be casting the spell at level 1. I would cast the spells at level 10 and quicken them with 10 Karma. That is what give the spells such large dice pools for resistance. |
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Nov 3 2005, 02:48 AM
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#357
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Did'nt think you could buy incompatance for any skills you couldn't default to. |
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Nov 3 2005, 03:14 AM
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#358
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
So Drain code isn't figured by damage healed -2? |
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Nov 3 2005, 01:24 PM
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#359
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
so how do slay spells work now? Are they just gone? I haven't noticed any. But obviously there's a problem when the damage equals the force of the spell. So it's not like it can just deal a deadly wound, or 10 boxes, or whatever. Has this spell just fallen by the way side as incompatible with the new system, or am I missing something?
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Nov 3 2005, 03:31 PM
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#360
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Literally it's "(Damage Value) - 2." So then the next questions are "Great, now which Damage Value are we talking about? Their entire damage track? One particular wound? An arbitrary number of boxes that I declare I'm trying to heal?" We're told "A character can only be magically healed once for any single set of injuries." That in itself is annoyingly vague and there are many posts on the subject already. What constitutes a "set?" But what it does clearly do is tell us that we're supposed to be healing wounds as sets. Therefore, however many boxes of damage are in that set is what will determine the drain code. There are three possible definitions of sets that I came up with: 1) The total number of Physical boxes of damage currently held by the character. 2) A number of boxes equal to one particular application of one Physical wound. 3) A number of boxes equal to the currently untreated Physical wounds (i.e.: the boxes that have not been magically doctored yet). Page 244, thankfully, tells us what a "set" is in the medicinal sense: "Medicine may only be applied once to each set of wounds, but it may be applied even if First Aid and/or magical healing have already been used. Additional damage taken afterward counts as a new set of wounds." So the set definition #3 -- assuming the usage of the word "set" is meant to be consistent between medicine and magic -- is the appropriate one. ~~~~~ Take 3P damage, then take 5P damage. A mage comes by and heals you; his drain is 6 (3+5-2). Let's say he gets 5 hits on his Spellcasting (which would require at least a Force 5 Heal to be fully effective), so your set of wounds goes from 8P to 3P. Then you go out and take another 4P of damage. The mage rolls his eyes and goes to heal this new set of wounds. He can't touch the pre-existing 3P; that's recoverable only via rest. He can, however, attempt to heal the new set of injuries. The wound set is 4 boxes, so his drain code is 2. Let's say he gets 3 hits on his Spellcasting (again, he would have had to declare at least a Force 3 for those hits to apply), so your new set of wounds goes from 4P down to 1P. That means your total Physical damage is now 4P (3P left from earlier and 1P left from the new stuff). ~~~~~ So basically you just need to get into the habit of tracking which wounds have been treated (and with what, since you can't use First Aid on wounds that have been magically Healed) and which are as of yet untreated. What I do is mark a single diagonal slash through fresh wound boxes. Then when I'm given First Aid, I'll put another diagonal through the remaining boxes (making an "X") and erase the single-slash boxes that were patched up. Then when I'm magically Healed I erase the X's that were patched up and put a horizontal line through the remainders (making sort of an asterisk). Those remaining "asterisk" boxes can be healed only through rest. If I'm ever magically Healed before receiving First Aid, then the remainder boxes go straight into asterisk mode and I shoot dirty looks at the helpful mage for a few minutes. It's a pain (no pun intended), but that's the best way I've come up with to handle damage tracking, given the healing rules. |
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Nov 4 2005, 12:13 AM
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#361
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
That is brilliant, Azralon!
Incidentally, Magicians should never be able to declare the size of the set they are attempting to heal. Then they could break the total damage into sets of 4. That would give them the minimum theshold to resist drain while at the same time making it very likely that they will, over time, be able to heal all the damage successfully. |
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Nov 4 2005, 01:00 AM
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#362
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
A couple of notes ...
First, I think that the Drain Code for Heal should always be based on the entire Damage of the subject, regardless of the number of 'boxes' he does, or indeed can heal. Second, a 'Set' of injuries always refers to the total damage taken since the last application of the relevant healing, be that first aid, magic, or hospitalization. Third, and most important, always apply First Aid before any magical healing. That applies to all editions of Shadowrun. A quirk in SR4 is that you are better off just letting a high-rating medkit work its magic unless you have a very high skill level. |
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Nov 4 2005, 03:03 AM
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#363
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I think it's a bit clearer with Resist Pain, which has a drain with a similar notation (Damage Value - 4), that it is all the boxes of damage (of that type being addressed i guess) the patient currently has. But only a bit clearer, and by inference. |
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Nov 4 2005, 03:33 AM
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#364
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 598 Joined: 12-October 05 Member No.: 7,835 |
Hey, that's great too!
The set of "healable" damage may be small, but the drain code would be higher (the size of the set of total injuries minus two) because wounds farther down the damage track are nastier. |
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Nov 4 2005, 04:00 PM
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#365
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Just to stave off confusion -- and Fortune please correct me if I'm misinterpreting -- the first point is a "I'd like it better if" statement and the second point is a "this is the way it actually is" explanation. |
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Nov 4 2005, 11:53 PM
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#366
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Pretty much, although I don't recall seeing anything that specifically rules out #1 as being accurate in canon.
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Nov 7 2005, 08:44 PM
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#367
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
That's the best definition of a set that I've found so far. Note that the use of the word "afterward" keeps things firmly vague. After what? After the Medicine skill has been applied? After you've had First Aid and/or magical healing? |
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Nov 10 2005, 12:23 AM
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#368
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Quick Question about the touch spells.
Because casting is a complex action does that mean that you have to cast the spell one combat pass and then attempt to strike them the next, is the attempt to hit them considered part of the action of casting the spell, or does it mean that the character just needs to be standing next to the target? By looking at the list of combat spells provided with GM approval one could also have elemental range touch spells at (F/2) +1 Drain. |
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Nov 10 2005, 01:29 AM
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#369
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
According to canon, the actual 'attack' is part of the spellcasting process for a Touch-based spell.
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Nov 10 2005, 02:32 PM
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#370
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
A popular combo is to have a low Strength, a high Unarmed skill, and use Death Touch. Not only do you get +2 to hit, but since all you have to do is make contact ties go to the attacker.
The jury (possibly the Adam Jury) is still out on if you'd be doing your unarmed damage plus the damage of the spell, or just the spell's damage. |
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Nov 11 2005, 09:42 AM
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#371
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 11-November 05 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 7,945 |
I have noticed a few people mentioning about taking incompetence just to get a few extra BP's. One thing you may not be aware of is that having incompetence in a skill gets you a point of notoriety, for each instance of the incompetence.
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Nov 11 2005, 07:38 PM
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#372
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Woohoo! That makes my Intimidation Troll character even more effective! |
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Nov 15 2005, 04:09 AM
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#373
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Not sure if this is the right thread to talk about Incompetence and Notoriety, but I'll risk a blurb.
Oddly enough, my group was just talking about that today. You can be the most incompetent SOB ever -- taking it 7 times in different skills -- and for some reason you effectively get +7 to Intimidate. Is that why Jabba had a palace? He was a fool to take Infirm; it's worth only +1 to Intimidate! |
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Nov 15 2005, 05:03 AM
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#374
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
hmm. i can see someone taking the adept quality, then getting the points back from incompetance in various magic skills... and then getting a LOT of cyberware. free points for making a burnt out mystic adept. and there just happen to be 7 magic skills in all. 25 free points, no real disadvantage, and +7 intimidate. obviously broken.
the only limit on incompetance is that it be an active skill you have to ranks in. they should probably add an errata clarification. |
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Nov 15 2005, 05:27 AM
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#375
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't recall anything about a requirement that a Skill be 'Active' in order for one to be incompetent in it. In fact, the Conversion Guide has an example of someone with the Incompetent Quality for a Knowledge Skill (Yakuza). I do recall that SR4 canon specifically states that a character cannot have any 'ranks' in a Skill in which he is incompetent (which is the exact opposite of SR3) |
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