 Shadowrun 4: Magic |
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 Dec 8 2005, 08:57 PM
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#401
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Most likely they work like Summoning Foci, where the dice can be used for the magic test or they can be applied to Drain. -Frank |
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Dec 8 2005, 09:07 PM
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#402
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
It says "A magician gains bonus dice when acting or using Sorcery or Conjuring skills in accordance to the mentor’s ideals."
My guess is the "acting" part covers the skill-based and other bonuses. The rest sounds like you get the bonuses only when using the Sorcery or Conjuring skills themselves, not when soaking drain. |
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Dec 13 2005, 07:00 AM
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#403
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Just because I can't find a post by me on it with search, but it's something I'm curious about...
The Innate spell power of critters (in particular - spirits of man) says it lets the spirit use the spell. My curiosity wonders if they're intended to suffer drain (as normal for other magicians) when doing so, or if they have some sort of strange freebie drain on them? At this point, it seems more like the former - I don't know why it didn't seem more sensible then. :P heh. maybe because it never makes mention of them suffering drain or not (or for that matter, what happens if they try sustaining spells). |
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Dec 13 2005, 03:15 PM
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#404
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
They use spellcasting as per normal rules.
IIRC, a Magic 4 magician can summon a Force 8 spirit (twice the summoner's Magic) and teach it Ball Lightning, then have it cast it at Force 16 (twice the spirit's Magic). Sure, the spirit will probably blow itself up, but hey: Force 16 Ball Lightning. You might even get a free Negative Quality out of it. |
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Dec 13 2005, 07:06 PM
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#405
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Scary part is, short of pissing the spirit off, that has a potential of really working. O_o
If you did the force 16, the drain ends up as 13 - roughly matching the CM of the spirit (8+half body rounded up, since spirits of man are the only ones that can cast the spells). That's assuming the spirit doesn't make any rolls on a drain test. A single hit would insure it stayed alive (if barely) but it would. average will keep it with a few points to spare without dying. That's using 16 dice for the drain. With all the mental stats matching at 8, it's guaranteed unless you use the drain attribute spell on the spirit. Easier way to guarantee life - don't do full power, and that spirit will live through the casting. You should probably send him/her/it away afterwards though, if you don't want to get too much bad stigma for using it like a spell battery. Of course, in reflection, summoning that spirit can kill the caster if they can't roll a good drain check against the summoning drain - up to 16 points. That's deadly, unlikely, but deadly. |
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Dec 14 2005, 11:25 AM
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#406
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
Don't forget, that the force 8 spirit has an Edge of 8, which it can use against the drain.
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Dec 14 2005, 09:27 PM
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#407
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
okay, deadlier still - what if it uses the edge while you're summoning too?
I guess one better find a lot of favors a spirit likes before committing to giant projects. I'd hate to imagine rolling and watching myself having to resist 48 drain or something.... |
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Dec 18 2005, 01:37 AM
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#408
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
i read it somewhere but can't find it. where can i get a convertion for my mits spells to SR4
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Dec 19 2005, 06:43 AM
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#409
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
I know there's a conversion from 3 to 4 for characters, dunno about spells though...
Anyways, I got a couple questions involving ritual sorcery 1) Can the main caster double as spotter if he has the options? I looked around for an answer, but didn't find anything solid in the book (or else I missed it). 2) In the case of sustaining a ritual casted spell that normally has line of sight - is this simply excluded for the time, or can you use the original spotter to hold it in place by keeping LOS, etc, etc... ack, one more question for skills and their limits Is there actually a spell or method of increasing a skill past 6??? Somewhere implied a limit of 9, if augmented. But I don't know any spell that actually 'gives' points in that fashion. |
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Dec 19 2005, 11:04 PM
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#410
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
1) No, I don't think so. The spotter does not add dice to the roll, the main caster is the one who's skill the roll is based on. So I'd have to say this is not possible. In my games, though, I have definitely brought back material links -- they are just too useful as plot items to do away with. This would remove the need for a spotter. 2) There is only one thing that I know of that allows you to raise your spellcasting skill above 6 -- aptitude (spellcasting) which lets you get to 7. This would seem to put it behind other skills which, in general, have ways of getting to an augmented 9. But keep in mind that while sorcery is limited, magic is not, and all spellcasting tests are tied to magic. So at a certain point, you can't get any more skilled, only more powerful. |
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Dec 20 2005, 02:39 AM
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#411
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
On another forum someone pointed out an interesting rule mechanic. Take a look at page 173, "Spellcasting->Step 3: Choose the Target(s)-> Area Spells
-emphasis mine This effectively states, that only visible targets can be targeted by any area effect spell. As it stands, even indirect combat area spells (like a fireball) can't hit a target, not seen by the caster. Page 195, "Spell Characteristics -> Range", explicitly references to that ruleset, and the description of indirect combat spells (p.196) doesn't explicitly overrides it. So has anyone found an explicit rule, that clearly disables this restriction [only visible targets] for indirect combat spells? And to make it clear: I don't search for houserules or interpretations of the fact, that a indirect combat spell is treated as a ranged attack. I'm just looking for a quote to something i might have overlooked. |
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Dec 20 2005, 03:07 AM
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#412
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's too bad, because that's all there is. Page 195 says that a LOS spell requires you to see the target. Page 196 says that an indirect spell is treated like a ranged attack. Page 140 says that a ranged attack can hit an opponent you cannot see. Shadowrun does not have a hierarchy of rules, so when it comes to a direct contradiction like that, it is up to your gamemaster to interpret. Until Street Magic comes out, the interpretation that the spell targetting rules override the ranged attack rules and the interpretation where the ranged attack rules supercede the spell targetting rules are equally valid. -Frank |
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Dec 20 2005, 05:36 AM
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#413
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
that was always an obvious part - as far as fireballs go. :P
a direct spell doesn't have a medium; you cast it, they feel it. an indirect spell uses a medium - this medium (as far as spells in SR) is always physical. Since it's a physical medium, it can interact with physical things. Given that, it can hit things you can't see through the convenience of the medium Yes, fire, lightning, acid, it's all a viable medium.if you were to send real burning flames around a corner, wouldn't you expect something to burn if it can and it was hit? That is the reasoning for saying 'treat an indirect spell as a ranged attack'. It's not a see and hit spell, it's a projectile spell. but that wasn't the question I asked - in a RITUAL sorcery situation, if you set a sustainable spell through the spotter, how are the rules of sustaining held? by the description of line of sight, there's nothing saying you have to keep LOS to sustain the spell in place (but it doesn't say you can either). But can it be done? could you place a physical barrier in a spot the spotter finds and hold it, could you levitate an item, turn to stone someone and hold it, etc, etc. Come to think of it, some of those are touch - can you even do those in ritual sorcery? (no distance healing). |
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Dec 20 2005, 10:12 PM
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#414
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923 |
anyone else noticed that hermetics get the shaft?
WIll power - need for all for drain, to resiste Mana spells, adn for Stun boxes Cha all need for # of bound spirites, and social skills are usually useful for everyone. Intuition mage, all mages need to learn spells, and Intionion is for perceptoin which is darn useful, and for inititiative Logic. Not needed for mages in general, unless you are hermetic. Skills, well, a few are useful, but none will save your butt like perceptoin will. so all mages need willpower, cha, and intuition. Hermetic mages also need logic, becuase their drain stat doesn't serve double duty like the others. |
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Dec 20 2005, 10:56 PM
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#415
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Keep in mind that Logic is the only of those Attributes easy to improve with implants...
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Dec 20 2005, 11:19 PM
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#416
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
which then reduces magic.
i think i'd stick with using magic to boost it, thanks. |
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Dec 21 2005, 12:07 AM
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#417
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923 |
I took it becuaes it fit my concept.
I had a logic of 3, so I figued before he turned into a troll, he had a logic of 5 He knows he got dumber, and this bothered him, so he saved up the money and had a cerebral booster installed. |
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Dec 21 2005, 02:30 AM
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#418
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sustaining spells in general does not require continued LOS to be maintained, just that you take the -2 penalty while sustaining a spell. Of course, you could always spell bind the spirit you sent to act as your spotter or slap your spell on a sustaining focus if that's what you really want to do. This isn't explicitly stated for spells (it is explicitly stated for sustained spirit powers), but the limitation that you have to be in LOS to move a sustained area of effect spell (p. 174) strongly implies that you don't have to maintain LOS the rest of the time. -Frank |
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Dec 21 2005, 07:38 AM
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#419
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Now that was a good answer, thank you Frank. :)
Now I just need to figure out if astral counts as LOS to he physical world and I'm set, *cackles* Although to the other topic: I don't think Intuition counts as a real req for mages and using perception and initiative as a reason is silly, because that's a basic desire, not a magical one. :P A decent mage will have a decent spellcasting rank, and since the test is extended, you only have to worry about taking too long. If your situation is really smooth, a GM may just let you auto success a set amount of time - otherwise maybe you can throw some edge into your learning if you need a boost? You can repeat attempts to learn spells, and depending on your source it might not cost you a thing. And if it does...well...maybe you should spend that Kamra on Intuition then? ;) lol as for as Charisma go, slightly better arguement with spirits involved, but I was never for binding potentially dangerous enemies much. - Never want to go to sleep right after spending all the services from a once bound fire spirit - it might come back for his paycheck. |
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Dec 21 2005, 06:08 PM
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#420
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923 |
cha and intuitino also have great value when going Astral (cha for ST for damage, intuitino for reaction and initiative). Logic only helps Agility, which I can't find a use for in Astral space. (astral combat comes off will power)
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Dec 21 2005, 06:27 PM
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#421
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Your Astral Infiltration rolls are based off of your Logic.
-Frank |
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Dec 21 2005, 07:40 PM
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#422
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 3-November 05 Member No.: 7,923 |
oh, that makes sense. Logic -> Agility, which is what's used for mundane infiltration
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Dec 23 2005, 06:44 PM
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#423
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
You know, I wonder if anyone else has noticed that Adepts with Astral Perception can now create wards? As well as spirits.
PG 185 Can be created by any Awakened being with Astral Perception (including spirits and Adepts with the Astral Perception power) Anyone ever considered calling up a spirit and having it set up and maintain wards for you? They get 2x their Force to roll for the ward, and considering that it is not entirely unlikely to summon F8 spirits now if you are willing to take the drain, it seems like it may be a better idea to summon one of those, get 1 net hit by spending edge and having them set up your ward for you. |
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Dec 23 2005, 07:06 PM
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#424
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
The trick is that while spirits can set up the ward, summoned spirits don't have "Create Ward" in the list of possible services they'll perform. Bound or not.
That's not to say that the GM can decide otherwise (as always), but it seems to me that you could interpret the RAW as "a spirit can set up a ward, but it isn't obligated to by the services owed from summoning." |
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Dec 23 2005, 07:16 PM
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#425
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 18-November 05 Member No.: 7,978 |
Ahh good point. That makes me feel better.
A ward is not a physical use, not a specific power either. Hm. on the other hand, you can command a spirit to use a skill for you. Ward building is not a skill though, so I guess it really is up to who runs it. I won't be allowing it, but one thing that interests me is that spirits can set up wards for themselves. That and the adepts can. |
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