 Shadowrun 4: Combat & Gear |
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 Aug 22 2005, 11:37 AM
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#26
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
Due to round-off. Ellery is assuming that when calculating the the required number of 1s for say 5 dice it is 5/2=2.5 = 3 rounded up. That seems like a good assumption. If you rounded down to 2 1s needed the odd numbers would instead be very bad, likely more so than they are good now. EDIT: And i concur, if you've got the cash and the Edge to cover it, Ex-ex would definately seem the better for anti-person. Especially highly armoured trolls. Knock those suckers out. ;) |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:01 PM
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#27
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Penetrating/destroying physical barriers and vehicle armor. How dat work?
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Aug 22 2005, 12:19 PM
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#28
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Barriers now have Armor and Structure Ratings instead of a single Barrier Rating. You roll an unopposed Attack test, and add hits to the modified DV of the weapon. Melee or Unarmed - No change Monowhips/Whips - 1 DV Projectile - 1 DV per projectile Bullets - 2 DV per bullet Explosive - Base DV x 2 AV rocket/missile - Base DV x 3 Combat Spell - No change You can't miss unless you critically glitch. Then the barrier resists against damage using its Armor x 2, except against Demolitions (explosives attached directly) or Indirect Combat spells (use only Armor). You add the adjusted DV after Damage Resistance to the number of cumulative damage boxes the barrier has taken, and if the number of boxes exceeds the Barrier's Structure Rating, you create a 1 square meter hole. Each equivalent Structure Rating unit creates another 1 meter hole (so if you do a total of 30 boxes of damage against a Structure Rating of 10, then you create a 3 square meter hole). Vehicles use Reaction + Handling to avoid attacks (+ Vehicle Skill on top of that if using Full Defense) and Body + Armor to resist attacks. Vehicular/Hardened Armor stops attacks cold, just like in SR3 (if the modified DV of the attack after Damage Resistance doesn't exceed the Armor, then it does no damage). GMs are encouraged to use the "Automatic 4 dice for 1 Hit" rule when determining whether or not light arms would penetrate and do damage. Vehicles range in Body from 4 (for a motorcycle) to 16 (Ares Citymaster, which also incidentally has an armor rating of 20). Note: AV Missiles and Rockets have -6 AP against vehicles. |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:31 PM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
What about small arms AV slugs, is that in with AV missles? Or are they [bizzarely] inferior to Ex-ex in this catagory?
Killjoys, i want to take out a Lonestar 'Master with a lucky roll on my Predator IV combined with an unlucky damage reduction roll. :P Also, what happens to the slug that penatrates a barrier [easily]. Can it do damage to a target on the other side? I'm thinking shooting people through typical gyproc walls or office cubical panels. |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:38 PM
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#30
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
AV rounds do not exist, although I'm assuming that the AP mods from explosive and APDS rounds still apply against Vehicle Armor (this is a rather large assumption to make, I know).
As long as you exceed the Barrier's Armor rating with your DV, it will penetrate, but the person on the other side gets the benefit of the Barrier's Armor (added to the target's own Armor/Body).
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Aug 22 2005, 12:42 PM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
So basically any [modified] DV over the Barrier Armor rating is the new DV that the person behind faces? EDIT: And how would it handle that i'm shooting blind? I've already rolled. Or do i have to declare up front i was trying to hit them and split my roll 2 where i have both rolls total to calculate penetration but the group with the blind penalty removed to determine if i hit the person (and not counting the hits in the penalty group for the DV on the person)? P.S. Is there a list of typical barrier armor ratings? |
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Aug 22 2005, 12:50 PM
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#32
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Erm, no. What happens is that you take the modified DV on the attack, and if it's below the Armor Rating, it doesn't penetrate. Otherwise, you roll the attack normally (and a -6 Blind Fire modifier unless the barrier is transparent), using your Base DV, and the defender rolls normally (adding the Barrier's Armor Rating to his/her resistance test). This is one case where APDS shines, since I believe you can apply the AP modifier to both the Barrier Armor rating AND the Armor worn by the target (effectively double-dipping), but don't quote me on this (I haven't seen any examples of this in the book). Note that the table that I gave above for modifying DVs only applies to damaging the barrier itself and not a "normal" attack through a barrier.
It's actually very similar to the table in SR3 (use Barrier Rating as the Armor Rating). The structure ratings are a linear progression of 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, etc. as the Barrier Rating (now Armor Rating) goes up.
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Aug 22 2005, 12:55 PM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A loophole! You can layer armor still. The downside is that the outer layer has to be a box. I wonder what the social skill modifiers are for walking around inside an office cubicle that you put wheels under? ;)
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Aug 22 2005, 01:00 PM
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#34
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Well, I'd rule that it would be the same as vehicles. You can aim at the passenger or the vehicle under vehicle combat, and if you aim for the passenger, they get the benefit of the vehicle's armor (in this case, your steel box), but they also have -2 dice to defend. |
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Aug 22 2005, 01:05 PM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Good idea, motorize the wheels! :silly: Like the Popemobile, only not so infailable. EDIT: Oops, getting a bit OT. Thanks for the answers. |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:07 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
can you give all the stats of the citymaster, for comparison with SR3 version, thx.
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Aug 22 2005, 02:20 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
What about indirect explosives (Landmines, truck bombs, aircraft gone 9/11 style, etc)? |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:21 PM
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#38
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Resists with Armor x 2, as usual. They said "Explosives attached directly" specifically in the rules. |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:32 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
I note a basic failing of the rules, then.
You can't do roadside bombs and landmines like we've seen in most of the ME for the past 20 years. |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:39 PM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Anti-vehicle landmines i would think are something different than normal explosives. Whether the BBB has proper rules to deal with that class of weapon, or we have to wait for the suppliment for canon answer, is another question. Also a GM might count landmines as in contact if they are triggered by pressure or very close proximity. EDIT: Speaking of which, "chunky salsa"? |
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Aug 22 2005, 02:48 PM
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#41
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think what they are getting at is that there are two ways to make a barrier crumble easily, with a Power Bolt or with a Demolitions roll and your explosive of choice.
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Aug 22 2005, 03:32 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
Are Ex explosive and APDS ammo available at character generation?
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Aug 22 2005, 03:36 PM
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#43
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
No, as they are both above Availability of 12 at character creation. |
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Aug 22 2005, 03:37 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
I betcha, one thing that hasn't changed. The GM has final say over the rules and can change them to fit his game/the situation. So I doubt theres a acual failing in the rules there. |
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Aug 22 2005, 03:39 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 266 Joined: 16-April 02 From: DC Member No.: 2,605 |
Finally a knife will do more damage than an unarmed attack!!! That was one of the biggest issues I've always had with the rules from all previous editions. And it looks like a (light) pistol will do about the same amount of damage as an unarmed attack from a strong attacker.
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Aug 22 2005, 03:56 PM
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#46
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
One thing to note here is that one of the goals with SR4 is to put all the core, important rules in the main book, but also to keep the core rules simple still. Rob said that the expansion books will generally have more complex advanced rules as well as optional rules in them. So chances are things like this will probably end up in there, Bull |
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Aug 22 2005, 04:04 PM
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#47
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Actually, by the core rules, EX-Explosive rounds (Which are a step up from "regular" Explosive Rounds) are Availability 12F, which is technically available at Chargen, since 12 is the limit. I would add, however, that Glitching on your attack roll is not the only time Explosive ammo can "cook off". getting caught in an explosion and being caught in a fireball can make EX ammo do nasty things. Plus, while Explosive ammo can be fired froma silenced/sound suppressed weapon, I highly doubt it's a silent explosion. It's nota large explosion, but it's definately gonn a makes some noise, especially the EX rounds. Bull |
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Aug 22 2005, 04:05 PM
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#48
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Still around. |
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Aug 22 2005, 04:08 PM
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#49
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Sure, why not. Handling: -1, Accel: 5/30, Speed: 120, Pilot: 3, Body: 16, Armor: 20, Sensor: 3, Avail: 20R, Cost: 51,200¥ Bull |
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Aug 22 2005, 04:09 PM
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#50
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
That's not what p300 in the gear section says. It says Availability 8. Of course, flipping back to p 84, it says Availability 12. |
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