 Shadowrun 4 Errata, Post errors you've noticed here, please |
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 Sep 25 2005, 11:51 PM
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#201
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 916 Joined: 26-August 05 From: The land between the north , the south and the midwest. Member No.: 7,626  |
p252 states that windows are "polarized" to prevent mages from casting at targets on the inside.
"Polarized" should be replaced with "mirrored." Polarized glass prevents glare and provides some darkening but is transparent. Link. |
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Sep 26 2005, 12:38 AM
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#202
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,756 |
Page 220: If you wanted to pick out a particular person's PAN in a crowded club, you'd roll Data Search + Scan program.
Page 225: Finding a particular node in a crowded area might be more difficult: make an Electronic Warfare + Scan (variable, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test... We are given two methods to resolve what appears to be the same task. |
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Sep 26 2005, 02:50 AM
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#203
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,756 |
On page 106, the "Skill Ratings" section uses an Infiltration Test as an example, stating that a player is to roll Infiltration dice and Agility dice when attempting an Infiltration Test. However, every test listed in the book lists the attribute plus the skill, as in Agility + Infiltration Test. This would indicate that when making an Agility + Infiltration Test, the player would roll an amount of dice equal to his Agility plus dice equal to his Infiltration skill, plus dice equal to his Agility again. This interpretation is obviously incorrect, as evidenced by many examples. The example on page 106 should call this an Agility + Infiltration Test, not an Infiltration Test.
This becomes a problem in the Wireless World section as the majority of tests in this section are Skill + Program. Because skill ratings are added to the linked attribute to determine the number of dice (also page 106), a Data Search + Browse Test would require the player to roll a number of dice equal to his Logic attribute plus his Data Search skill plus his Browse program rating. However, there are various places where Skill + Attribute tests are listed as counter-examples: page 217 says that Matrix Perception Tests are Computer + Analyze instead of Perception + Intuition, which implies that the Matrix Perception Test does not include the dice from the Computer skill's linked attribute of Logic. As there are no examples in The Wireless World section that illustrate someone performing a Test, it is unclear if one uses the Logic attribute on these tests. As all other non-hacker test examples explicity state the addition of the attribute and these rules do not list the attribute, it is implied that one does not use the Logic attribute on these tests, which contradicts the rule on page 106. If this implication is correct, the skill defaulting rules need to be addressed. A character unskilled in Data Search with a high Logic attribute using a Browse program to look up traffic information on the Matrix would have a better chance of doing so than the same character trained in Data Search (with skill ranking 1). In fact, there's no reason for anyone to take any Cracking or Electronics skills; hackers should simply create characters with insanely high Logic attribute. If this implication is incorrect, the various test equations in the entire The Wireless World section should list the attribute in the test equations. |
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Sep 26 2005, 02:10 PM
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#204
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Navigation, Shadowing, Survival, Perception are all physical skills. Does this make sense? I think, it would make more sense if you insert a sentence like "on any test involving the selected skill that is linked to Physical attributes." SYL |
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Sep 26 2005, 02:17 PM
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#205
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
None of thos skills you listed are linked to physical attributes...nor would i consider them physical skills. As they're almost all completely mentaly based with (in general) very little phyical interaction involved (survival being the main exception to this as well building a lean-too would be physical interaction but you're not building it the same way twice ect ect ect). |
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Sep 26 2005, 03:29 PM
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#206
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Shadowing? :eek: You do realise that involves moving as fast as your target without being seen? Perception also involves turning your head quickly and such. In a session not so long ago we had captured a member of a large group we were trying gather information about, such as the location of their HQ and such. He had been knocked out in the fight. So i beat about the head and shoulders to make him really sore in the neck, busted a big toe, and made sure his eyes were nearly swollen shut. Then left him to discover himself alive and assume he had been left for dead. I beat him about the head/sholders to make it harder for him to notice me following him. It also makes it much harder to locate the source of a sound, as the way the human body works that requires that you move your head quickly to give your ears a second point of reference. So as a GM you wouldn't have given him a penalty for noticing me? The only one of those four i find dubious enough to possibly house rule out is Navigation, other than staying on track is a physical skill when you are walking through uneven terain, or perhaps using a paper map. |
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Sep 26 2005, 03:33 PM
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#207
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Just, installing a reinforced reflex to do so isn't such a good idea... unless you want to be nicknamed 'wryneck'. :grinbig: |
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Sep 26 2005, 04:27 PM
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#208
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You mean you might instead want to install something that has you use a better technique and move in better form when you move your head to perceive something? But what would be call such an implant??? :P |
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Sep 26 2005, 05:00 PM
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#209
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Well first off. Shadowing is less of a physical skill and more of a mental skill. Knowing when to lay back. Knowing how far you can close on the subject. Figuring out what you should do in order to not look like you're following them. Anyone can walk behind someone at the same speed. Not everyone has the knowledge and skill to not make it obvious. It has very little to actualy do with physical movements. Its about timing that constantly changes depending on on what your subject does and your current surroundings. Theres not much you can record there reflexively as well your environment, and where you are, and such determines what you may react and do. Where as firing a gun theres certain things, no matter the environmental conditions that you always do...line the gun up look down the sights, fire the weapon. Perception being a physical skill? You're realy REALLY stretching it there blakkie. Honestly, turning your head? Perception is about noticing details. It has nothing to do with moving your head. You can not record your reaction to things such as noticing papers are out of order on your desk. Its memory. Its noticing somethings not right. Its that gut feeling that tells you someone's behind you. Its paying attention to those things in your perifrial vision. Turning your head does not play into this. You may notice something in your periphrial vision but that doesn't nessicarily mean you turn to look at it. Perception has never, ever been a physical skill. In sr3 it was based off of your intelligence, not your quickness since quickness would be the attribute you'd base how quick you can snap your neck around. Navigation is another completely non physical skill requireing you to use points of reference, and infer your position on the map or wherever based on what you have available as cues. The trail marker. That land mark over there. Knowing which way is north. Very little physical parts to this skill. And the physical parts are a result of the skill but do not cause the skill to be used. Believe me, having done more than my share of orienteering, trail traveling, and such, theres not much you can record as well its going to be completely different at every single new location, the only things being the same would be whipping out the map and compass, or in shadowrun turning on that mapsoft. Survival, out of all of those skills mentioned is the only one thats remotely physicaly related, and even it encompases far to much to be even classified as such for a reflex recorder. I would say it even being iffy on building shelters with it as the shelter building completely changes depending on your surroundings and matterials available. Building fires would be the the only real thing I could think of that would be recordable. The others theres just far to many variables to even think of recording and getting something usable. |
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Sep 26 2005, 06:22 PM
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#210
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
All skills I mentioned are physical skill (SR4 page 113+), but are based on mental attributes. That is the reason why I think that reflexrecorder for perception do not make sense. It should be limited to combat/physical skills linked to an physical attribute. SYL |
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Sep 26 2005, 06:26 PM
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#211
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Wrong place for this discusion....and you are Rong™. :P
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Sep 26 2005, 06:30 PM
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#212
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Meh so they are. I still won't consider them physical skills as they have very little to do with the physical.
uh huh... |
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Sep 26 2005, 06:36 PM
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#213
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
This is exactly the reason why I wish that a phrase like "linked to an physical attribute" is added ... SYL |
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Sep 26 2005, 06:39 PM
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#214
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya huh! |
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Sep 26 2005, 09:35 PM
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#215
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
The HK XM 30 has a grenade link. SR4 knows only an airbust link.
SYL |
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Sep 27 2005, 11:20 AM
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#216
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As this tends to make Survival very erratic, it would be better to make Survival the equivalent to normal damage resistance. EDIT: 'Removing' the Threshold and using it as a DV to be resisted with Survival+Willpower produces results less extreme, and more streamlined to the normal damage system. A clarification whether the prohibition of recovery covers First Aid would be nice, too. |
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Sep 27 2005, 02:57 PM
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#217
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
IIRC, it's mentioned in an unfortunately nebulous "somewhere" that you can always choose to decrease the DV of your attacks. This would let a Cat shaman (or Cat hermetic, for that matter) fulfill the quirk. |
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Sep 27 2005, 03:25 PM
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#218
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Erratic? In which way? |
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Sep 27 2005, 06:07 PM
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#219
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
On page 212 it says that "For every x number of programs you have actively running, where x = System rating, your response is reduced by 1."
On page 225 it says that "Additionally, if a device is running more programs at once than its System rating, reduce the Response on that device by 1 per (System) programs (ie, a System 5 device running 10 programs at once suffers –2 to its Response)." The first implies that if I have a System 5 device running 5 programs, my Response is reduced by 1. The second implies that I have to have 6 programs running before my Response is affected. Calypso |
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Sep 27 2005, 06:18 PM
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#220
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In a bad one. EDIT: Those rules kill characters faster than Ebola... even those prepared and with professional survival skills: Either the day is perfect or you are screwed. Using the Threshold as a DV to be resisted with Survival+Willpower still allows Joe Average a camping trip while making arctic trip hard but manageable for trained folks. |
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Sep 27 2005, 06:39 PM
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#221
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
:rotfl: Er, that's nice detail. :) Let's try this another way...you don't like the all or nothing aspect of the damage since it lacks granularity to outcomes? So you are suggesting a better way is for partial 'failure' to meet the threshhold still reduces the damage by 2 boxes/hit? Because i do like that idea, and i do think that SR4 doesn't take full advantage of the fixed TN's support for the concept of partial failures. EDIT: I see you added some detail, and ya i agree on that point. |
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Sep 27 2005, 06:50 PM
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#222
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, it's three aspects: First, that does not mesh with the usual Damage resistance rules. Second, depending on the way you read it, as the use of First Aid may be prohibited, the DVs are to high for any normal periods. Third, the lack of possibility of partial failure totaly ruins the dramatic aspect: No one would be able to crawl back barely. |
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Sep 27 2005, 08:18 PM
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#223
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
It does mesh much more with how Mana spells work (i.e. Stunbolt), but then i'm not crazy about the way they work. The environment doesn't have the ability to stage the damage up past the base DV though. I do somewhat understand why Stunbolt works that way, basically it is a combination of a throwback to previous SR and at least part of the point of Mana spells is to counter high Body opponents. If Survival allowed a second soak stage then you'd have to up the damage to make something short of the Sahara/Tundra mean anything (although a case could be made it should be that way?), but in doing so Survival would become Ebola with a gutshot chaser for low Body characters even at the low levels.
If you allow automatic successes it's not too bad at the bottom end. You only need 4 dice to live on the street, what i think they mean by "urban".** The top end does start becoming cruel. A Willpower(7) Dwarf with Survival(6), a heat source, appropriate clothes, camping gear, and food/water can safely survive indefinately in the Arctic baring storms (which you'd need to he'd need to use Edge for). So i think it's close. Have you ever gone winter camping/hiking? It is a demanding experience. I think what it's missing are just a few dice modifiers, such as the survivor aclimatizing, the ability to increase bonus dice over a number of days to represent building semi-permanent support, and perhaps a larger range of bonus dice for heating/cooling sources and gear. It wouldn't make it 100% realistic, but it would help a lot addressing the playability of the top end environments (which in the end should be fairly dangerous IMO). ** - This is actually something that probably should come into play for characters that take the Street lifestyle, at least unless some helpful social charity like the Universal Brotherhood is operating in the area. :vegm:
It is a tough balance. Although the tension of whether you roll 4 hits does simulate the "just making it" somewhat, the 3 and 4 Threshholds do have that granularity issue of two bad days are going to knock any metahuman unconscious (and the second bad day is going to come quicker with the -2 dice). |
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Sep 27 2005, 08:50 PM
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#224
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Not even quite that... that mechanic is just here for Survival.
What second soak?
The point here is... many people do it for a hobby, some for a living and some to live... the problem isn't even the Threshold (Teamwork is your friend in Antarctica), though, it's the fixed and rather high damage accumulating too quickly. |
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Sep 27 2005, 09:29 PM
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#225
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The attacker side of the opposed roll is coming from the environment, so it is a fixed Threshhold instead of a rolled Threshhold. Other than that, it's a similar the same mechanic (dice pool modifiers and Countercasting support aside) except the environment doesn't scale up damage for "net successes".
Er, i mean a second stage of rolling that is a Body soak roll. Poor wording, sorry. :oops:
Well it is a hobby you need to invest more than a casual amount of learning and equipment in or you'll be scoring a ride home in an emergency helicopter, perhaps a ride delayed till the next spring whe you get your own private bag for the trip back. The base DV isn't so bad at all if you allow partial reduction for each hit. |
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