 Suggestions for SR4 Arsenal, right on time, hopefully |
  |
  Aug 28 2005, 03:45 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586  |
yah, yah, yah, everybody thinks that :newbie: maeel goes for the vehicle rules again, BUT nay.... he is not....
There are a couple of things in SR3 that were pure bullshit, let's make sure they get fixed... 1.) Assault and Autocannons. IMO we are talking about weapons with a caliber of 20mm to 30mm. Of course one can fire slugs with them, but normally these weapons fire explosive rounds, which are either armor piercing (AP), high explosive (HE) or high explosive incendinary (HEI). Allthough this problem could be fixed with houserules, i'd like to these changes make it into the arsenal. More lethality, Yay! :evil: 2.) Miniguns and max.firerate. with the introduction of HV-weapons, miniguns became obsolete. HV weapons had a higher firerate (18 rounds per complexaction) and could mount more equipment. My suggestion would be to make miniguns fast firing autocannons (man portable miniguns are nonsense). Problem solved, and more lethality, Yay! :evil: 3.) Launchsystems. In SR3 they used up firm- (medium) and hardpoints (heavy), which made it impossible to create, for example, a Littlebird Helicopter. Littlebirds are used by the US Military and are equipred with two fixed forward medium or heavy MGs and a missile pod on each pylon. It should also be kept in mind that todays jetfighters can engage up to nine targets (as far as i know) simultaniously. With the SR3 rules this is not possible. I would recommend that launchsystems don't use hard- and firmpoints, but instead the costs should be increased, which would also reflect the fact that they have to be connected with sensors.... thats it for now... |
 |
 
|
|
Aug 28 2005, 04:32 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
is this the littlebird your talking about?
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/g...ery/21a22.shtml if so yes, there was a distinct lack of those kinds of helicopters in SR3 and rigger3... |
|
|
|
|
Aug 28 2005, 04:33 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Yeah... something that is bigger than a Wasp/Yellowjacket, but smaller than, say, an Ares Dragon. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 28 2005, 06:14 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
detailed information on the littlebird:
littlebird another thing that bothers me, is the amount of mounting points for hand weapons. larger rifle weapons should have two underbarrel mounts. also, i think that every weapon should be capable of mounting a folding or fixed stock. ok,ok, holdouts and light pistols, well lets just it would look kinda weird, but hey if u've got a strength of 1..... |
|
|
|
|
Aug 28 2005, 07:03 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, now that i think about it, isnt that helo allso used as the kiowa spotter for apache's?
as for underbarrel mounts. outside of a lasersight i dont recall seeing anything in SR thats so small and dont have to have clear line of sight forward that you can mount it behind something else. now if your talking side by side then maybe. as for the stock, look in cannon companion. one of the customizations are the fitting of a stock. available to anything bar a rifle or shotgun ;) |
|
|
|
|
Aug 28 2005, 09:38 PM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
nope, the kiowa is a different helicopter: Kiowa Warrior and yes, i knew that with the stock, but as a matter of fact, it gives smg's LMGs, MMGs and HMGs one additional recoil compensation point, but leaves ARs and shotguns out. just doesn't make sense..... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 28 2005, 10:10 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
err, i think that the SR MG's use hip brace rather then stock so...
ok, i know its silly as the usual image of a LMG is a soldier prone, with the weapon supported by a bipod. i guess they are going for the rambo style ;) and no wonder i confused the kiowa with the littlebird. only real diff is the front windows as the kiowa have a small snout that dont allow for a all glass front. other then that it looks the be the same basic frame... hmm, maybe someone with SR4 could check to see if any of the helicopters included there are smaller then say a blackhawk without being a autogyro. if not then they should realy include atleast one in arsenal... |
|
|
|
|
Aug 28 2005, 10:20 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 21-August 05 Member No.: 7,586 |
or they should include vehicle design rules, oh crap, here i go again... :D
the bipod is also the reason for me to ask for two underbarrel mounts, one for the bipod and one for the foregrip... like it is with the M249SAW |
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 12:50 AM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,631 |
You can't mount a stock to a weapon that already has one, obviously. I think most of the assault rifles in SR are assumed to have a built in stock that doesn't count for recoil comp, because you're assumed to always be using it. On the other hand, weapons with built-in stocks like ARs and shotguns can mounts pads on the end, which also give one point of recoil comp. Personally, I always found it wierd that you couldn't mount both a foregrip under the grenade launcher, even tho the weapon pictured in the assault rifle section of the Cannon Companion appeared to have both. :D In the case of the M-249 SAW having both a bipod and a foregrip... perhaps the number of mounting points shouldn't matter for weapons with the accessories built in? I doubt there's any reason I couldn't mount a flashlight under the barrel of an MP-5K (which has a built-in foregrip), right? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 29 2005, 03:35 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Well, if the stock on a shotgun doesn't give an RC, how does that account for the folding stock on the SPAS-22?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 04:00 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We don't talk about that.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 04:56 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
The SPAS-22 is just a violation.
Now then, as for portable miniguns: Why not? With the materials available in even 40 years, it would be perfectly feasible to build a minigun that is light enough to be carried into battle. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 08:05 AM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,631 |
I guess I always thought of the SPAS-22 as an exception. Considering that all non-heavy weapons in SR have the same recoil per shot, I guess I always figured that the built in stocks were supposed to balance the greater recoil of rifle and shotgun rounds. But that's just my personal quirk. :) I think the problem most people point to in man-portable mini-guns is not the weight but the recoil. Making it lighter would actually probably make the problem worse. I seem to recall hearing that the one Jesse Ventura used in "Predator" had been de-powered (the rotation slowed and short rounds used) and still special measures were required to keep him on his feet. Actually, I might as well just dig up the reference on the IMDb.....
Maybe for trolls? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 29 2005, 08:28 AM
Post
#14
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273 |
alright i know i am responding to two different people but sorry as for the assault cannons, the ammo has always been treated as armor piercing unless it was an AV round....i dont mean to sound nasty, but read the rules more carefully next time, unless of course this was changed in SR4, in which case i will shoot the idiot out of an 155 howitzer myself the reason the spass 22 has extra recoil comp for its stock and the other shotguns dont is that it has a FOLD OUT STOCK, think the shotgun being used by the game keeper in the first jurrasic park when he gets jumped by the raptors and i appologize if i sound a bit snitty, but i am wide awake after 19 hours of being awake and no idea if i will be able to fall asleep tonight |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 29 2005, 08:48 AM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Well, you might get in a situation where you need to mate an Ares Alpha with a flamethrower and as every rules-lawyer will tell you, that's not possible under current rules. Poor lil Newt... :D Birdy |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 29 2005, 08:53 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
lets just hope that they are able to keep arsenal a bit more selfconsistent then what fasa produced at times. or maybe thats why they are dumping the design rules from everywhere. as the desgin rules are most likely not used on the grear in the BBB and may not be used on all the stuff in the same book as the rules then its basicly no use for them as people cant look at said gear and go aha...
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 09:48 AM
Post
#17
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,590 |
Wouldn't a flamethrower be a risky thing to have next to a grenade launcher? The grenades might not like the surrounding atmospheric conditions all that much. :grinbig: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 29 2005, 09:52 AM
Post
#18
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yes, the plastic explosive might... burn? emit unhealthy fumes? the optronik fuse would stop functioning? ;)
BTW: What shouldn't be missed in are Arsenal Decots (realistic Human Drones) and Landmates (Exosuits). :cyber: |
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 09:53 AM
Post
#19
|
|||||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If the heat is radiating back that much the shooter better be wearing her SP 500 sunblock, tinfoil hat, and Nomex III thong. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Aug 29 2005, 09:58 AM
Post
#20
|
|||||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
sounds like a very bulky setup. i find it unlikely that something like this would show up in anything but the hands of a troll. and if so he may as well get it custom buildt from the ground up. alltho not supported, i would allow it out of the sheer insanity and the liability it would be. basicly any time he showed of this monster in front of a camera any investigator would do the rounds, looking for a troll with a custom made rile/grenade/flamer combo. still, it sounds like something that best belongs in the hands of a warhammer 40k terminator rather then a SR troll ;) hmm, only place i recall seeing anything similar was the sega console game based on the film aliens3. but even in said movie there was nothing even close to similar. i hate to ask this but can anyone point me to a real life setup where there are two underbarrel mounts side by side similar to what birdy talks about? as in one that is more then a prototype or a proof of concept. something that may actualy get issued to soldiers... and while on the topic of underbarrel mounts. i would love to see a underbarrel shotgun so that i can make my variant of the masterkey :love: and about that forgrip under a grenade launcher on a picture. i would not care as thats just another proof that artists have a licence to go outside the rules. hell, some of those guns pictured looks to be anything but useable in their primary role. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 29 2005, 10:35 AM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
The answer is time, mass, signature, power source and recoil. The minigun uses an electric motor to spool up the (six!) barrels, feed the weapon ammunition and eject the empty casings. With those barrels spinning around at 1000rpm you're gonna make a very loud whirring noise, kinda like a blender running in open air, that's a noise signature. And if you think you can wait until you have a target first, think again. Your hangtime from pulling the trigger to getting bullets out at a worthwhile cyclic rate from a dead stop is about a second. Or in other words.... too long. The battery you need to run this weapon for any appreciable amount of time will weigh a fair bit, the weapon, held in hand will generate a lot of heat and make a nice big thermal signature for the guy waiting at a safe distance, a nice big thermal sig that your optics won't be able to see through worth a damn. The weapon does not have any reciprocating parts and fires at a cyclic anywhere between 2000-6000 Rounds Per Minute (any less and you're better off bringing an MG3 or an HK21E which weighs a LOT less and doesn't need a battery!) so you're gonna need a little red wagon to carry any more than 20 seconds worth of ammo (2000 rounds, if I know you guys). Oh, did I forget to mention that cyclic rate of 2000-6000 is gonna kick? A LOT. The minigun will not make an appearance in my game unless it is tacked onto a quadruped (at least) drone or on a vehicle capable of handling the deployment of such a weapon. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 29 2005, 10:38 AM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 140 Joined: 26-July 05 From: Calgary Alberta, CANADA Member No.: 7,519 |
One thing to note, the "Assault Cannon" does exist. Google XM109 Payload Delivery Weapon System.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 29 2005, 10:40 AM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 297 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 248 |
Well, at least this one shouln't be a problem. Since SR already has man portable weapon-class laser-systems, which should need similar batteries at least. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 29 2005, 11:13 AM
Post
#24
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 16-August 05 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 7,559 |
Miniguns as they exist now are basically obsolete anyway. There is an electrically fired gun in the BBB afaik, but that is, of course, a VERY limited use of such marvelous tech. I looked into Metalstorm a bit, the videos were MORE then evil. Quote taken from the Video Section:
Unfortunately such a "barrel block" is no way as cool as running around with a Minigun ... |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 29 2005, 11:53 AM
Post
#25
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
one problem with metalstorm is reloading.
a minigun can be reloaded just like a machinegun. add on more belts of ammo. with metal storm you at best have to replace the barrels, at worst i guess you have to replace the whole gun :P |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th June 2025 - 02:34 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.