yah, yah, yah, everybody thinks that maeel goes for the vehicle rules again, BUT nay.... he is not....


There are a couple of things in SR3 that were pure bullshit, let's make sure they get fixed...

1.) Assault and Autocannons. IMO we are talking about weapons with a caliber of 20mm to 30mm. Of course one can fire slugs with them, but normally these weapons fire explosive rounds, which are either armor piercing (AP), high explosive (HE) or high explosive incendinary (HEI). Allthough this problem could be fixed with houserules, i'd like to these changes make it into the arsenal. More lethality, Yay!

2.) Miniguns and max.firerate. with the introduction of HV-weapons, miniguns became obsolete. HV weapons had a higher firerate (18 rounds per complexaction) and could mount more equipment. My suggestion would be to make miniguns fast firing autocannons (man portable miniguns are nonsense). Problem solved, and more lethality, Yay!

3.) Launchsystems. In SR3 they used up firm- (medium) and hardpoints (heavy), which made it impossible to create, for example, a Littlebird Helicopter.
Littlebirds are used by the US Military and are equipred with two fixed forward medium or heavy MGs and a missile pod on each pylon.
It should also be kept in mind that todays jetfighters can engage up to nine targets (as far as i know) simultaniously. With the SR3 rules this is not possible.
I would recommend that launchsystems don't use hard- and firmpoints, but instead the costs should be increased, which would also reflect the fact that they have to be connected with sensors....

thats it for now...

is this the littlebird your talking about?
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/g...ery/21a22.shtml

if so yes, there was a distinct lack of those kinds of helicopters in SR3 and rigger3...

Yeah... something that is bigger than a Wasp/Yellowjacket, but smaller than, say, an Ares Dragon.

detailed information on the littlebird:

littlebird

another thing that bothers me, is the amount of mounting points for hand weapons.
larger rifle weapons should have two underbarrel mounts.

also, i think that every weapon should be capable of mounting a folding or fixed stock. ok,ok, holdouts and light pistols, well lets just it would look kinda weird, but hey if u've got a strength of 1.....

hmm, now that i think about it, isnt that helo allso used as the kiowa spotter for apache's?

as for underbarrel mounts. outside of a lasersight i dont recall seeing anything in SR thats so small and dont have to have clear line of sight forward that you can mount it behind something else. now if your talking side by side then maybe.

as for the stock, look in cannon companion. one of the customizations are the fitting of a stock. available to anything bar a rifle or shotgun

err, i think that the SR MG's use hip brace rather then stock so...

ok, i know its silly as the usual image of a LMG is a soldier prone, with the weapon supported by a bipod. i guess they are going for the rambo style

and no wonder i confused the kiowa with the littlebird. only real diff is the front windows as the kiowa have a small snout that dont allow for a all glass front. other then that it looks the be the same basic frame...

hmm, maybe someone with SR4 could check to see if any of the helicopters included there are smaller then say a blackhawk without being a autogyro. if not then they should realy include atleast one in arsenal...

or they should include vehicle design rules, oh crap, here i go again...

the bipod is also the reason for me to ask for two underbarrel mounts, one for the bipod and one for the foregrip... like it is with the M249SAW

Well, if the stock on a shotgun doesn't give an RC, how does that account for the folding stock on the SPAS-22?

We don't talk about that.

~J

The SPAS-22 is just a violation.

Now then, as for portable miniguns: Why not? With the materials available in even 40 years, it would be perfectly feasible to build a minigun that is light enough to be carried into battle.

I guess I always thought of the SPAS-22 as an exception. Considering that all non-heavy weapons in SR have the same recoil per shot, I guess I always figured that the built in stocks were supposed to balance the greater recoil of rifle and shotgun rounds. But that's just my personal quirk.



I think the problem most people point to in man-portable mini-guns is not the weight but the recoil. Making it lighter would actually probably make the problem worse. I seem to recall hearing that the one Jesse Ventura used in "Predator" had been de-powered (the rotation slowed and short rounds used) and still special measures were required to keep him on his feet.

Actually, I might as well just dig up the reference on the IMDb.....

lets just hope that they are able to keep arsenal a bit more selfconsistent then what fasa produced at times. or maybe thats why they are dumping the design rules from everywhere. as the desgin rules are most likely not used on the grear in the BBB and may not be used on all the stuff in the same book as the rules then its basicly no use for them as people cant look at said gear and go aha...

Yes, the plastic explosive might... burn? emit unhealthy fumes? the optronik fuse would stop functioning?

BTW: What shouldn't be missed in are Arsenal Decots (realistic Human Drones) and Landmates (Exosuits).

One thing to note, the "Assault Cannon" does exist. Google XM109 Payload Delivery Weapon System.

Miniguns as they exist now are basically obsolete anyway.

There is an electrically fired gun in the BBB afaik, but that is, of course, a VERY limited use of such marvelous tech.

I looked into Metalstorm a bit, the videos were MORE then evil.

Quote taken from the Video Section:

one problem with metalstorm is reloading.

a minigun can be reloaded just like a machinegun. add on more belts of ammo.

with metal storm you at best have to replace the barrels, at worst i guess you have to replace the whole gun

Aren't both weapons designed for totally different roles? I would also assume the Metalstorm system to be the much more expensive weapon...

Afaik the only role Miniguns are used today is in situations where your either moving a lot and / or trying to hit a highly mobile target like:

1) Missile Defense on Ships
2) Mobile Air Defense
3) Short Range Aerial Combat
4) Fire Support (usually from an aircraft / helicopter)

All those enviroments are pretty high tech and got not much to do with grunt work, were a "regular" MG will do more good as RPM in that high numbers is not needed and the penetration ability vs. tanks is usually pretty lousy on miniguns (except the A10 mounted one of course).

If you really need RPM, specially in Missile Defense situations, a Metalstorm will do way better due to "burst RPM". The website is very shy on reload info, so you cant really expect sustained RPM from a Metalstorm (yet?).

Just grabbing some videos to get more info on that.

The advantage of Metalstorm should be easy of handling and low production cost. You dont really need any high tech, specially no rotating barrels.

Hm, well the reload part is easy. You insert a "tube" (loaded with shells) into the barrel. The handling of that tubes may be an issue as they would get pretty long and thin, not as nice as the clips we have now.
In the 40mm grenade video there seemed to be 4 grenades / tube, dunno how much you could load into a regular caliber tube.

Its WAY more comlicated then belt feed for sure...

Edit: Can anyone post the rules for the "Yamaha Sakura Fubuki" (reload, clipsize,...) please?

AppleSeed, indeed.

As SR4 probably won't have a system to create vehicles, it would be nice to have a template at least - building it oneself wouldn't work that well.
(It didn't in SR3, too - problems with load and space)

The current miniguns were originally built for use from aircraft. People had actually had the idea of powering a gatling gun with a gasoline engine in the early days of the 20th century, but no one could think of an application where you needed that many rounds per minute.

MetalStorm technology ought to be more reliable than standard firearms, provided the ammunition has sufficiently good quality control. Almost all of the jams in current weapons are caused by a failure to extract an empty casing (no problem, MetalStorm has no casings) or a failure to feed a new round due to a defective/damaged magazine (MetalStorm has no mags). Dirt, dust or carbon fouling can also be a problem (especially in AR-15 style weapons), but since there are no moving parts in a MetalStorm that issue doesn't come up either.

Really, all that can go wrong in a MetalStorm is some kind of circuitry glitch, battery problems or low grade ammo. Come to think, that's plenty enough. On the other hand, if one barrel jams you still have as many as 35 others (depending upon model) to take up the slack . . .

Personally, I'd like to see the hand carried miniguns just go away. Hell, I've only seen one used once in an SR game and I was using it (didn't like it either). The assault cannons make more sense . . .

Okay, time to deal with each objection over a minigun, in order.

1) Weight- As I mentioned, this is dealt with using lightweight materials.

2) Recoil- This is SR. I've built assault rifles using SR3 that are recoilless until the 10th bullet. Install a specialized recoil compensation system. Not that hard. If you think it is, you can work with the bullets or firing mechanism.

3) Battery weight- Not a problem. Look at the portable lasers.

4) Noise- It's a fragging minigun! If you're trying to sneak around with it, you're doing something wrong.

5) Time until firing- As someone else mentioned, quite a few modern miniguns fire right at or very close to the time the trigger is pulled.

6) Ammo- This has been dealt with. It's reloaded much the same way any belt-fed gun is. Or, you can use one with magazines (incorrectly called clips in SR).

7) Purpose- This has been one most people are missing, and it's too obvious for such to be excuseable. Basically, the minigun would be, as a tactical weapon, quite simple. Since you really probably are not going to be that accurate with it anyways, it's primary use would be surpressive fire. With the noise and distraction created, it allows for troops with smaller handguns to potentially get better shots and not have to worry about people trying to shoot back at them. It can also be used on large crowds if needed. Loaded with gel rounds, it would be the ultimate anti-riot weapon, as any rioter not subdued by the rounds would flee in terror.