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> Best SR4 Assassin, Trolls with Bows -- overpowered?
Theo
post Aug 30 2005, 03:13 PM
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This may be difficult to pull off as a shadowrunner, but really, a troll with a bow, would make an excellent assassin.

Bows: (Min Str+2)P damage. If you can max out a Troll's strength to 15 (granted, not the easiest of tasks, but doable with enough augmentation), your range would rival all but the sniper weapon for range... I believe the limit on extreme range (I don't have my SR4 book WITH me) would be 900. That's pretty darn good.

Something seems a bit unbalanced about that, especially considering that's with JUST an arrow. If you take an injection arrow, you can get not only 17P (which will even kill a Body 15 troll), but additional damage from whatever you stick IN the arrow.

Well, you say, you can only get one shot off with a bow, compared to guns. This is true, you need to ready weapon THEN shoot it each time. But, compared to a 4P, or 5P gun, even two shots from that (where they get to resist EACH damage) isn't nearly as good as one arrow.

If you consider additional die from 'Take aim' and if you can negate the extreme range penalties with vision augmentations...

Wow.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 30 2005, 03:20 PM
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"You're going to backstab him with a ballista?" - "Uh huh" - "With a fucking siege weapon?" - "Uh huh". :rotfl:
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Darkness
post Aug 30 2005, 03:22 PM
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Off topic: Is there anyone who doesn't know this film?
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mintcar
post Aug 30 2005, 03:23 PM
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Maybe (str/4 rounded up)+4 P damage and a lower cap on the range would be a good house rule? (str/3 might be better though...)
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blakkie
post Aug 30 2005, 03:26 PM
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How would Take Aim work there? Would you notch an arrow (ready the bow) and Take Aim on the previous pass, and then shoot? Taking a total of 3 Simple Actions. Do you still have to Quick Draw arrows from a quiver as well, or is that part of the Simple Action for readying the bow?

What is the formula for calculating the range increments, based on the min. Str of the bow?

P.S. What is the Avail. on a Str(15) bow? I assume he'd want to carry a lesser Str backup, or can you still shoot a bow over your Str and some penalty?
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Theo
post Aug 30 2005, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
How would Take Aim work there? Would you notch an arrow (ready the bow) and Take Aim on the previous pass, and then shoot? Taking a total of 3 Simple Actions. Do you still have to Quick Draw arrows from a quiver as well, or is that part of the Simple Action for readying the bow?

What is the formula for calculating the range increments, based on the min. Str of the bow?

P.S. What is the Avail. on a Str(15) bow? I assume he'd want to carry a lesser Str backup, or can you still shoot a bow over your Str and some penalty?

You can take aim as many times as you want, as long as the subject doesn't move. It doesn't have to be in the same pass or round. Yes, so as long as they don't move, you get extra die all over the place. (As long as they don't move. So you're taking your chances)

I'm sorry, the I only remember (without the book) the max range (Str * 60) and the close range 0-STR.

I think there is NO avail on bows. Regardless of minimum strength.

Yes, you can shoot higher minimum strength than you have, but it's -2 die for each strength you have lower.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 30 2005, 03:31 PM
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As for melee weapons the damage is AFAIK (Str/2+X)P, my guess that the DV of bows is a typo and should be (min Str/2+2)P.

[EDIT]Erm, yeah... the first 'min' was a typo, too... ;)[/EDIT]
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mintcar
post Aug 30 2005, 03:32 PM
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I guess a str 15 bow would really BE a ballista when you think about it.
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mintcar
post Aug 30 2005, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE
As for melee weapons the damage is AFAIK (min. Str/2+X)P

Why would that be? Does "fists" have a min strength? Because if they don´t you could end up with doing less damage with a knife than with your fists if the knife is small.
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Spookymonster
post Aug 30 2005, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (Darkness)
Off topic: Is there anyone who doesn't know this film?

Yo.

And Rotbart's suggestion seems appropriate.
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tirsales
post Aug 30 2005, 03:57 PM
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Film: "The Gamers". Scene: "In the commons". I won't describe it further to not spoil the extreme fun :-)
http://www.deadgentlemen.com/gamers/
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Gambitt
post Aug 30 2005, 04:39 PM
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Ahhh the classic Trolls with bows thread, how it makes me smile :spin:
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Clyde
post Aug 30 2005, 04:47 PM
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I'm a lot less worried about trolls with bows than I am trolls with assault cannons or trolls with miniguns. Anyway, the big trog still has to hit - and with an agility penalty and all his cyber stuck in strength he shouldn't be unstoppably evil at it. :twirl:
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Theo
post Aug 30 2005, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Clyde)
I'm a lot less worried about trolls with bows than I am trolls with assault cannons or trolls with miniguns. Anyway, the big trog still has to hit - and with an agility penalty and all his cyber stuck in strength he shouldn't be unstoppably evil at it. :twirl:

Actually, with bio, you can get strength to max with the suprathyroid gland, muscle augmentation and muscle toner (All bio). You can even throw in a synaptic booster to up your reaction. That way you can start 'take aim' right after someone moves, get several passes to aim before you shoot them (before their next action).

But I'm coming up with worst (or is it best) case scenario.
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mintcar
post Aug 30 2005, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (tirsales)
Film: "The Gamers". Scene: "In the commons". I won't describe it further to not spoil the extreme fun :-)
http://www.deadgentlemen.com/gamers/

hehehehehe. Saw the trailer, what a blast. :D I´m... acquiring this movie as we speak.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 30 2005, 05:21 PM
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It's even on IMDb! :grinbig:
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hahnsoo
post Aug 30 2005, 05:44 PM
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Blarg. This is quite overpowered, although I'd be hard-pressed to think of a reason why anyone would manufacture a Troll-modified bow, STR min of 15 (to each his/her own, I guess). If it's STR/2 + 2, it's not so bad, but that would make bows a worse weapon than crossbows, instead of a comparable weapon. A STR 6 Bow is comparable to a Heavy Crossbow, while a STR 1 Bow is comparable to a Light Crossbow, and I think that was the intention. I'd hate to put a hard cap of STR min 6 on Bows (although according to normal character creation rules, you can't get equipment with rating above 6 anyway at character creation), which would certainly solve the problem as well, although I will note that 8P against Impact Armor and with Injection Arrows is still quite evil. I don't think it was the developer's intent to make Bows the equivalent of Panther Cannons.

Speaking of Heavy Crossbows, they aren't so shabby either. 7P, -1 AP, and they have a magazine of 4 bolts so you don't have to use multiple Ready Weapon actions... you can effectively fire 4 times in a row without reloading. With injection bolts, you pretty much have the same benefits as a STR 6 Bow (STR 5 actually, plus the -1 AP), without worrying about strength at all.
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Conskill
post Aug 30 2005, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Blarg. This is quite overpowered, although I'd be hard-pressed to think of a reason why anyone would manufacture a Troll-modified bow, STR min of 15 (to each his/her own, I guess).

You pretty much have the solution right there. Just because a troll can use a bow with a draw strength measured in tons doesn't mean someone is going to manufacture it. If the troll tries to be a bowyer, it's easy to rule that common materials won't survive that sort of strain.

Perfectly fine to put an upper sanity limit on how powerful bows can be.
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hahnsoo
post Aug 30 2005, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Conskill)
Perfectly fine to put an upper sanity limit on how powerful bows can be.

True, but if the Troll has an Armorer skill and a shop/facility where he/she can make bows, then that throws it out of the window. We are talking about worst-case scenarios here, and I certainly can see someone making a character based around both Bow Damage and manufacturing or crafting said bow.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 30 2005, 07:17 PM
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Well, as said... it would be literally a ballista. ;)
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Clyde
post Aug 30 2005, 07:19 PM
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Look, it's all academic. If you want to let your player bring a ridiculous troll like this into the game, then that's your problem. GMs do get some say in what goes on in their games you know :)
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blakkie
post Aug 30 2005, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (Clyde)
Look, it's all academic. If you want to let your player bring a ridiculous troll like this into the game, then that's your problem. GMs do get some say in what goes on in their games you know :)

It gives me the Archer Assassin Troll or it gets the hose!
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hahnsoo
post Aug 30 2005, 07:30 PM
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Also, no matter how powerful the troll, the arrow can still get stopped cold by the Missile Parry power. :)
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Theo
post Aug 30 2005, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Also, no matter how powerful the troll, the arrow can still get stopped cold by the Missile Parry power. :)

Hopefully, in an assassination, no one knows you're there.

Can you Missile Parry when you're surprised (You or your bodyguards)?
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wagnern
post Aug 30 2005, 07:39 PM
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Welcome to S-mart, how can I help you? Troll Bows? Oh yes, we have them. They are in the automotive section under "Bision leaf springs', and the string is over under "carbon graphite fibers'. And don't forget arrows, they are in sporting goods under "Harpoons".
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