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Theo
This may be difficult to pull off as a shadowrunner, but really, a troll with a bow, would make an excellent assassin.

Bows: (Min Str+2)P damage. If you can max out a Troll's strength to 15 (granted, not the easiest of tasks, but doable with enough augmentation), your range would rival all but the sniper weapon for range... I believe the limit on extreme range (I don't have my SR4 book WITH me) would be 900. That's pretty darn good.

Something seems a bit unbalanced about that, especially considering that's with JUST an arrow. If you take an injection arrow, you can get not only 17P (which will even kill a Body 15 troll), but additional damage from whatever you stick IN the arrow.

Well, you say, you can only get one shot off with a bow, compared to guns. This is true, you need to ready weapon THEN shoot it each time. But, compared to a 4P, or 5P gun, even two shots from that (where they get to resist EACH damage) isn't nearly as good as one arrow.

If you consider additional die from 'Take aim' and if you can negate the extreme range penalties with vision augmentations...

Wow.
Rotbart van Dainig
"You're going to backstab him with a ballista?" - "Uh huh" - "With a fucking siege weapon?" - "Uh huh". rotfl.gif
Darkness
Off topic: Is there anyone who doesn't know this film?
mintcar
Maybe (str/4 rounded up)+4 P damage and a lower cap on the range would be a good house rule? (str/3 might be better though...)
blakkie
How would Take Aim work there? Would you notch an arrow (ready the bow) and Take Aim on the previous pass, and then shoot? Taking a total of 3 Simple Actions. Do you still have to Quick Draw arrows from a quiver as well, or is that part of the Simple Action for readying the bow?

What is the formula for calculating the range increments, based on the min. Str of the bow?

P.S. What is the Avail. on a Str(15) bow? I assume he'd want to carry a lesser Str backup, or can you still shoot a bow over your Str and some penalty?
Theo
QUOTE (blakkie)
How would Take Aim work there? Would you notch an arrow (ready the bow) and Take Aim on the previous pass, and then shoot? Taking a total of 3 Simple Actions. Do you still have to Quick Draw arrows from a quiver as well, or is that part of the Simple Action for readying the bow?

What is the formula for calculating the range increments, based on the min. Str of the bow?

P.S. What is the Avail. on a Str(15) bow? I assume he'd want to carry a lesser Str backup, or can you still shoot a bow over your Str and some penalty?

You can take aim as many times as you want, as long as the subject doesn't move. It doesn't have to be in the same pass or round. Yes, so as long as they don't move, you get extra die all over the place. (As long as they don't move. So you're taking your chances)

I'm sorry, the I only remember (without the book) the max range (Str * 60) and the close range 0-STR.

I think there is NO avail on bows. Regardless of minimum strength.

Yes, you can shoot higher minimum strength than you have, but it's -2 die for each strength you have lower.
Rotbart van Dainig
As for melee weapons the damage is AFAIK (Str/2+X)P, my guess that the DV of bows is a typo and should be (min Str/2+2)P.

[EDIT]Erm, yeah... the first 'min' was a typo, too... wink.gif[/EDIT]
mintcar
I guess a str 15 bow would really BE a ballista when you think about it.
mintcar
QUOTE
As for melee weapons the damage is AFAIK (min. Str/2+X)P

Why would that be? Does "fists" have a min strength? Because if they dont you could end up with doing less damage with a knife than with your fists if the knife is small.
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Darkness)
Off topic: Is there anyone who doesn't know this film?

Yo.

And Rotbart's suggestion seems appropriate.
tirsales
Film: "The Gamers". Scene: "In the commons". I won't describe it further to not spoil the extreme fun smile.gif
http://www.deadgentlemen.com/gamers/
Gambitt
Ahhh the classic Trolls with bows thread, how it makes me smile spin.gif
Clyde
I'm a lot less worried about trolls with bows than I am trolls with assault cannons or trolls with miniguns. Anyway, the big trog still has to hit - and with an agility penalty and all his cyber stuck in strength he shouldn't be unstoppably evil at it. twirl.gif
Theo
QUOTE (Clyde)
I'm a lot less worried about trolls with bows than I am trolls with assault cannons or trolls with miniguns. Anyway, the big trog still has to hit - and with an agility penalty and all his cyber stuck in strength he shouldn't be unstoppably evil at it. twirl.gif

Actually, with bio, you can get strength to max with the suprathyroid gland, muscle augmentation and muscle toner (All bio). You can even throw in a synaptic booster to up your reaction. That way you can start 'take aim' right after someone moves, get several passes to aim before you shoot them (before their next action).

But I'm coming up with worst (or is it best) case scenario.
mintcar
QUOTE (tirsales)
Film: "The Gamers". Scene: "In the commons". I won't describe it further to not spoil the extreme fun smile.gif
http://www.deadgentlemen.com/gamers/

hehehehehe. Saw the trailer, what a blast. biggrin.gif Im... acquiring this movie as we speak.
Rotbart van Dainig
It's even on IMDb! grinbig.gif
hahnsoo
Blarg. This is quite overpowered, although I'd be hard-pressed to think of a reason why anyone would manufacture a Troll-modified bow, STR min of 15 (to each his/her own, I guess). If it's STR/2 + 2, it's not so bad, but that would make bows a worse weapon than crossbows, instead of a comparable weapon. A STR 6 Bow is comparable to a Heavy Crossbow, while a STR 1 Bow is comparable to a Light Crossbow, and I think that was the intention. I'd hate to put a hard cap of STR min 6 on Bows (although according to normal character creation rules, you can't get equipment with rating above 6 anyway at character creation), which would certainly solve the problem as well, although I will note that 8P against Impact Armor and with Injection Arrows is still quite evil. I don't think it was the developer's intent to make Bows the equivalent of Panther Cannons.

Speaking of Heavy Crossbows, they aren't so shabby either. 7P, -1 AP, and they have a magazine of 4 bolts so you don't have to use multiple Ready Weapon actions... you can effectively fire 4 times in a row without reloading. With injection bolts, you pretty much have the same benefits as a STR 6 Bow (STR 5 actually, plus the -1 AP), without worrying about strength at all.
Conskill
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Blarg. This is quite overpowered, although I'd be hard-pressed to think of a reason why anyone would manufacture a Troll-modified bow, STR min of 15 (to each his/her own, I guess).

You pretty much have the solution right there. Just because a troll can use a bow with a draw strength measured in tons doesn't mean someone is going to manufacture it. If the troll tries to be a bowyer, it's easy to rule that common materials won't survive that sort of strain.

Perfectly fine to put an upper sanity limit on how powerful bows can be.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Conskill)
Perfectly fine to put an upper sanity limit on how powerful bows can be.

True, but if the Troll has an Armorer skill and a shop/facility where he/she can make bows, then that throws it out of the window. We are talking about worst-case scenarios here, and I certainly can see someone making a character based around both Bow Damage and manufacturing or crafting said bow.
Rotbart van Dainig
Well, as said... it would be literally a ballista. wink.gif
Clyde
Look, it's all academic. If you want to let your player bring a ridiculous troll like this into the game, then that's your problem. GMs do get some say in what goes on in their games you know smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Clyde)
Look, it's all academic. If you want to let your player bring a ridiculous troll like this into the game, then that's your problem. GMs do get some say in what goes on in their games you know smile.gif

It gives me the Archer Assassin Troll or it gets the hose!
hahnsoo
Also, no matter how powerful the troll, the arrow can still get stopped cold by the Missile Parry power. smile.gif
Theo
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Also, no matter how powerful the troll, the arrow can still get stopped cold by the Missile Parry power. smile.gif

Hopefully, in an assassination, no one knows you're there.

Can you Missile Parry when you're surprised (You or your bodyguards)?
wagnern
Welcome to S-mart, how can I help you? Troll Bows? Oh yes, we have them. They are in the automotive section under "Bision leaf springs', and the string is over under "carbon graphite fibers'. And don't forget arrows, they are in sporting goods under "Harpoons".
mintcar
Before I forget... Are really all melee weapons min str/2 +x? Could someone explain to me why this is? If youre really strong you could get seriously gimped by being armed.
Rotbart van Dainig
min & melee was my mistake... as edited. twirl.gif
mintcar
<huge sigh of relief> smile.gif
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Theo)
Can you Missile Parry when you're surprised (You or your bodyguards)?

Using Missile Parry takes a Free Action. You can't use the Free Action for Missile Parry if you:
1) Have a lower Initiative than the Troll and do not have a Free Action "saved" from the previous pass.
2) You roll less hits on the Surprise Test before Initiative is rolled.

If you roll more hits on the Surprise Test, but have a lower Initiative, then you can't use it.

If you roll less hits on the Surprise Test, then you can't use it, even if you have a higher Initiative.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (wagnern @ Aug 30 2005, 09:39 PM)
Welcome to S-mart, how can I help you?  Troll Bows?  Oh yes, we have them.  They are in the automotive section under "Bision leaf springs', and the string is over under "carbon graphite fibers'.  And don't forget arrows, they are in sporting goods under "Harpoons".

why not make that ed's-mart, as in ed, edd & eddy wink.gif
Req
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (wagnern @ Aug 30 2005, 09:39 PM)
Welcome to S-mart, how can I help you? Troll Bows? Oh yes, we have them. They are in the automotive section under "Bision leaf springs', and the string is over under "carbon graphite fibers'. And don't forget arrows, they are in sporting goods under "Harpoons".

why not make that ed's-mart, as in ed, edd & eddy wink.gif

No way. Shop smart - shop S-mart.
reconsweden
A high power troll bow will be made in SR just as .50BMG is sold for sporting/hunting to civilians and Smith & Wesson actually use the phrase "Ultimate Defensive Carry" when describing/marketing the S&W 500 with the 4" barrel.

Can it be done, someone will want to buy it wink.gif

Conskill
I have to admit, my knowledge of the physics of bowyery is lacking.

Is it even possible to create a bow that powerful? I'd assume (there's that nasty word) that you'd reach sharply dimishing returns on sheer draw strength before you start reaching the force of a main cannon.
hyzmarca
That depends on how Strength 15 translates into poundage. It is certainly possible to make bows that no human being can draw using modern materials. With 65 years worth of advances in building materials it wouldn't be unreasonable.

Battlefield longbows could have draw weights of well over 100 pounds. They could pierce plate armor with startling ease, in the hands of a trained bowman. And that is just with plain wood.

Modern bows use laminated carbon fiber to achive both high draw weights and compactness. Still, there is little demand for 100+ pound bows. Most modern archers would have difficulty working with such draw weights. It should be possible to make a bow with a 200 or 300 pound draw weight using modern materials. It may be large but it would certainly work.

There is little point in making a bow of those draw weights, even in war. A single arrow will only put one hole in a person and there is a limit to one's vision. I suppose a high-poundage bow would help with accuracy at extreme long ranges with accompanied with some type of magnification, but the arrow drop will still be great. At that point you are probably better off using indirect fire.

The Troll bowman problem isn't unique to SR4. He was devestating in SR3, as well.
blakkie
I think the real physics question here is if having an extreme range out to 900m is feasible without ever having the bowstring/arrow breaking the sound barrier. Otherwise so much for the stealth factor.

Oh and you better have one hell of guard to protect your arm if that string should even hit it during release. And a damn good one of those whatever they are called that you use to hold the bowstring, because something moving that fast and that much pressure on it will rip the gloves and then your skin right off your finger tips.
hahnsoo
Yeah, most of the sources I've seen in my rather cursory examination of archery put even the strongest draws at a maximum range (if you aren't aiming for a target) of 300 meters, with a maximum effective range (aiming and hitting a target) at 80 meters or less. Even with a troll strength, you won't get much more than that as far as range.
Shinobi Killfist
I really know two things about bows and well jack left town. But still I'd suspect there would be a limit to how fast an arrow can fly before it loses accuracy. quills or whatever the feather things are called would fly off, its not perfectly aerodynamic, there flexible and bend at launch I think.(or at least it looked that way in some history channel special)

It just seems at a certain speed they'd breakdown in accuracy. Then again I could be smoking the crack, because again I really know virtually nothing about bows.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE (reconsweden)
A high power troll bow will be made in SR just as .50BMG is sold for sporting/hunting to civilians and Smith & Wesson actually use the phrase "Ultimate Defensive Carry" when describing/marketing the S&W 500 with the 4" barrel.

Can it be done, someone will want to buy it wink.gif

Lieb Gott! Self defense against what, land sharks?!
Crusher Bob
A defense against sudden ego deflation.

As for the arrows, certain stiffness of arrows is required for certain draw weights. The stiffness of the arrows has to be within a certain range, or the shots won't be as accurate. The stiffness required for a bow that Wallhacker would be proud of would have to be pretty inpressive.
Jürgen Hubert
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Blarg.  This is quite overpowered, although I'd be hard-pressed to think of a reason why anyone would manufacture a Troll-modified bow, STR min of 15 (to each his/her own, I guess).

"I'm the best goddamn bowmaker there is in the whole world, and that's a damn fact. You've heard of Ballista, the famous cyber-troll assassin? I made that huge bow of his that takes two ordinary trolls to draw. That's right. And they laughed at me at the university! Said it couldn't be done! But who is laughing now, eh?"

"Anyway, you want a special commission for a bow with unique properties? You've come to the right man. Because I'm the best goddamn bowmaker in the world."
evil1i
http://www.unifi.it/unifi/surfchem/solid/b...ry/scalingbows/

Rather interesting discussion on the scaling of bows (allbeit for smaller bows but the Math could be reversed).

Basic result is that Yes a bigger bow would do more damage and at generally longer ranges so fear the Troll Archer Assassin (especially one that specialises at just that - I'm imagining a cyber+adept combo that would be simply deadly!)
Eagle
The one thing that concerns me is the cheese wire effect. The amount of force from the carbon wire or whatever across the fingers has got to leave an impression if not plain cut off the fingers.

I think the ancillary equipment to get a bow this strong working and safely would start getting very expensive.

Then it starts getting very large, with the stabilisers and other bits of kit (vision and smartgun links). The first time cops see it, they'll just laugh and wave you on. Then the "harpoon killer" hits the news and suddenly its not a joke, and the troll carrying the hand portable ballista is on every policeman's mind because it's such an unusual method of assassination. Hmm, I think there might be an adventure is there somewhere
Xenith
Turning a strange/high powered rules set up into a unique anventure. Very nice. biggrin.gif
snowRaven
Yeah - the main thing preventing such insan troll-bows should be simple availability of the bow.

Forget asking a fixer or walking into S-Mart to get one.

Consider this: how many Str 15 Trolls will there be in the SR universe? Divide that number by at least 10 and probably closer to 100 or 1000 to figure out how many of them have any interest in archery with a bow maxed-out for their strength.

Basically - force the Troll archer to either build it himself, or find someone who can. Otherwise he's stuck with the 'standard' Troll bows made for Str 9 or 10.
Ancient History
Bah. The best SR4 assassin is the hacker or technomancer that gets your house 'bot to replace your tooth paste with cyanide paste. You guys are looking for Hacksassins.
Shadow_Prophet
Well first, firing a STR 15 bow would put out enough sound to be equivilent of a gunshot.

Second, you don't pull back modern hunting bows (unless you're one of the extreamly few crazies who do) with your fingers. You use what is called a release which anchors around your wrist and has a little trigger you pull the then releases the bowstring ensuring that all points of contact on that bowstring release it at the same time (unlike with fingers hence the move away from that).

And in all honesty whoop de frigging do. You can do a large amount of damage with a bow. Congradulations. You now have a signature weapon which would have had to have been custom made virtualy, or atleast sold through a very very small section of retailers, most of which could recognize you. And yes you'd get it through a retailer for the simple fact that unless you have a gun shop (well archery but for rules sake we'll go with gun) you wouldn't have the tools to set up your bow on your own. And yes each bow has to be specificaly set up for the user in real life so nyahnyah.gif. Not to mention having arrows cut for you, unless you have a arrow saw (another thing you'd need the shop for).

All you're doing with that STR 15 bow is making yourself more identifiable. And that in and of itself is bad. Then ofcourse the sound it'll make is going to be quite noticeable.

So yes you can do alot of damage, at the cost of multiple other things.
tirsales
But it would be pretty impressive ...
Body lying on the floor, his military armor (and body) with a nice, round hole all through..
Cop 1: "What the hell did happen?"
Cop 2: "Weeeelll ... We recon someone shot him with a bow"
Cop 1: "A BOW?"
Cop 2: Weeelll... We found the arrow in the next room"
Cop 1: "There a fu** wall between"
Cop 2: "Yeah..."
Synner667
Hmmm..
..Interesting reading.

I do think that many of the folks here have lost sight of a rare concept that some people believe in, often known as "the character".

I personally think that an assassin who uses a high power bow is a great character, as regards character background, character development, etc.

After all, such characters exist in comics [Green Arrow, anyone ??] and their focus allows some very interesting characterisation and roleplay opps.

Also, anyone remem the magical "bow" on one of the S/Run sourcebook covers ??


Of course, the sheer dedication of that sort of character is, in my opinion, what makes a good character.


Just my tuppence worth,
Peter
warrior_allanon
QUOTE (Synner667)

Also, anyone remem the magical "bow" on one of the S/Run sourcebook covers ??

yes, SR3 companion, and having looked at that and after MitS came out was working on a phys mage assasin who used a bow and his arrows were all expendable spell foci but concept kinda fell by the wayside halfway through creation due to various causes

Siege
This also goes back to the arguments about troll-customized weapons.

With "modern" production facilities available to the SR small-business entrepreneur, custom weapons could be made and sold to people interested in "high-power" weaponry.

Orks, trolls and augmented sorts might find enough business to keep an armorer/gunsmith interested to set up a small business on the side. For those of you curious, there is a long thread about the commercial viability of troll-spec weaponry.

Just my two bits.

-Siege
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