 How to make a better..., Tips for character creation. |
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 Aug 31 2005, 08:03 PM
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#51
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014  |
Just a caveat: The Magician, Mystic Adept, and Adept qualities are given a specific GM veto. Just because the system allows you to buy these qualities cheaply doesn't mean that it will pass muster with the GM, and you can't argue that you "deserve" said quality with the GM because it's in the rules, because it's also in the rules that the GM can veto this choice. Anti-min-maxers will argue that "That's the way it should be!", but we are talking about a literal interpretation of the character creation rules here. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:12 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Er, I thought the GM could veto anything he wants? :) I always did. Yeah, in 3rd you could make a Physad/Mage. But the gm could always say, "Not in my game." GM could also say, Hey guys new game at my house next week. Make new characters. No deckers though, and no resources over 400k." Yeha, the rules don't prohibit making those charter choices under any circumstance - the GM has always had final approval. The fact that they had to write that into the rules is just nuts. I have not seen the book, but from listening to those that do, it seems like there a lot of "Optional/GM Approval" type rules. Sounds like they made some core rules, then through in some potenital house rules as options. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:23 PM
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#53
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The fact that there is specific language there may seem ludicrous to some, but remember the target audience (hint: not DSFers), and the fact that any sufficiently motivated player/min-maxer/weasel can justify to a GM to select a crazy combination of min-maxed abilities at character creation and justify it as being "in the book". Feel blessed if you never have participated in a rules-lawyer discussion between a player and GM... they do exist, and often in those cases, both the GM (ego-boost with Rule Zero) and the player (literal interpretation) are at fault. In the case of the specific language of the Quality, remember that the typical shadowrun veteran EXPECTS to develop a Magically Active quality within the context of the game setting, but new GMs and players to Shadowrun might not understand this.
By the way, we do NOT Rule Zero* in our gaming group. It helps that we are a bunch of friends who aren't likely to get angry at each other, and we really don't have heated debates. But everything is reached by a group consensus, and the GM doesn't have more power than the other players. It helps that we rotate our GMing duties every day, so everyone has an equal say in the discussion because everyone GMs. In our group, Rule Zero is for power-hungry losers who aren't there to share in an enjoyable game. As the saying goes "If the GM 'wins', everyone else loses." * Rule Zero: "The GM's word is final." Corollary: "... regardless of what the players may think, feel, or justifiably prove." |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:36 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 8-March 05 Member No.: 7,146 |
You know, the inexpensive 'Magician' attribute could be cool for a non wizard who wants to have the latent power within him that he can discover and develope in the future. (A street punk that gets a funny fealing around spirits and spells. A gumshoe who never payed that Magic stuff no mind but keeps getting drawn into it for some reason.)
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Aug 31 2005, 09:15 PM
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#55
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
This is a basic concept that should apply to any RPG (except Maybe Paranoia or possibly Call of Cthulu since characters in these games tend to have very short careers). The game that first got me into the idea of concept first-points later was Champions (which I have played since the original version that looked like it was done on a typewriter). In a way, they also had their own version of "Twenty Questions" for why do you want to be a Superhero? All of my current characters start with a background and profile write up before I even start allocating priorities/points. I often have detailed character stories in which the "20 answers" are buried. Unless I know it is going to be a very combat oriented (or Killer) campaign, few of my characters even have more than 2 dice total of initiative. Many have average (sometimes even below average) physical attributes. Why would a Cybersnoop or Wiz Kid Inventor, go around with a 6 strength & Body? They rely on intuition, smarts, good looks (Lana Lang - the Cybersnoop I have), wits and cunning. Oh, they can handle themselves in a fight okay (you don't want to get Leela the Wiz Kid Inventor mad, you may find your home or business a smoking crater tomorrow). These two have seen some pretty rough action from time to time, but are still around to brag about it. I have worked up a couple of totally "bad hoop" street sams for when the big guns are needed, but they are not half as much fun to play as the two characters mentioned above. Yeah, I often get comments from the min-Maxer players in the group that "oh, (I) always have such weak characters who won't jump into a firefight." Yeah they are right, that is why they have the Juiced up street sams & killer combat mages. Of course, often times were it not for Lana solving the clues with her investigative skills, or Leela cracking site security and/or creating a little diversion with a kilo or two of C-6 , many of the missions would have failed. IMHO, why spend all the time bending the rules to design a character that is only one dimensional? If I just wanted to go shoot & blow things up I'd be playing Mechwarrior or GTA instead. |
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Aug 31 2005, 09:18 PM
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#56
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Oooo, i think i see an interesting change to the Magician's Way. Here is the example text, and it supports the rules text above it, only this seems even clearer:
I think that means that Roxanne can cast spells up to Force 4 with Stun drain, and up to a maximum of Force 8. That has interesting possibilities for a Magic 6 that only dedicates a point or 2 to casting to start with. Sure they have a tough time coming up with Hits with that few Magic dice, but they are able to cast semi-respectble Force spells without overcasting. |
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Aug 31 2005, 09:21 PM
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#57
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I agree. That's why I make sure to have fully fleshed-out concepts for all of the characters that I spend the time bending the rules on. ~J |
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Aug 31 2005, 09:26 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Because every group needs at least one person who specializes in either "Kill people" or "blow things up." Besides, it's like Kage said. I like to have backgrounds as to why my min/maxed characters are the way they are. Yeah, sure Johnny has an interest in philosophy and wanted to be a psychologist before lack of money forced him to take a less legal path. That doesn't change the fact he uses an MGL like most people use pistols and that he can fart Force 6 spells and not even notice he cast them. Edit: Out! Out! Ye damned typo demons! This post has been edited by Sabosect: Aug 31 2005, 10:50 PM |
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Aug 31 2005, 10:47 PM
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#59
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Moreover, if you're going to bother to have chargen rules, your character concept needs to mold to fit your stats, not just the other way around. Let's say I have this concept of a guy who is truly, freakishly strong. Troll-strong, only he's human. He's about average intelligence, but something about him made him naturally this strong, and now he has to come to grips with it—has to make sure not to rip doors off their hinges, has to come to grips that despite being human he is "The Other" to just about everyone, so on and soforth. There's a lot I can do with that concept.
Except play it. It's flatly against chargen rules. So now I go back to the drawing board… Concept set in stone before numbers are thought of is a bad way to play, and should be avoided. Otherwise you end up having a character that may be interesting to act, but who is boring to, well, play. ~J |
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Aug 31 2005, 10:53 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
Now that's very interesting. I'll have to read that section closely. :) |
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Aug 31 2005, 10:55 PM
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#61
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
That is an evil idea. I liiike it. ;) |
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Aug 31 2005, 11:06 PM
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#62
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 873 |
Yep.
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Aug 31 2005, 11:20 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The method that I use is to have a rough general concept, then rough out the points, then fine-tune them both together. The trouble with having a finished story before you do the stats is that you rarely find that you can create exactly what you have written. Either you don't have enough build points, or you have "left over" ones. With my method, my characters are tight. Everything about them fits with their background.
Another thing when I create a character is that I remember that this is a character for a specific game - not something I'm writing for drama class. My characters need to be people who can offer something useful as part of a group of criminals. And the GM's play style needs to be taken into account, too. If someone says they are running a street-level, low-powered game, then I won't plop in an ultra-wired sammie with wired reflexes: 3. By the way, min-maxing is not limited to combat types. I guess the combat types get the most attention because most people who have had bad experiences with munchkins have run into min-maxed combat types. But not every min-maxed combat type is a munchkin! It's all in the style of play. A massive troll tank could work as the muscle of the team, acting to provide fire support and bodyguarding to the less combat-oriented characters. The munchkin version of that troll would bully the less combat-oriented characters and turn every meet or encounter into a combat one whenever he got bored. But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with playing a specialist whose role is combat. Runners should all be good at whatever their specialty is. Take Kyoto Kid's characters. Does Lana Lang have a 3 Charisma, a 3 Intelligence, and Etiquette and Computer skills of 3? Does Leela have a 3 Intelligence and demoltions and stealth skills of 3? Probably not. Just because they are not combat oriented doesn't mean they aren't good in their specialties. |
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Sep 1 2005, 06:17 AM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
In some games the social specialists or the stealth specialists are the ones who have the oomph to push everyone around. It totally depends on the campaign and the game system.
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Sep 1 2005, 07:02 PM
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#65
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Making a Mr. 24 the easy way: Summon It.
A Spirit of Fire has an attack pool equal to twice its force plus 2. That means that a Force 11 Fire Spirit walks onto the scene with an agility of 13 and 11 dice of Unarmed Combat and Exotic Ranged Weapon. If you specialize your Summoning and max out your summoning and Magic Attribute, you roll 14 dice on character generation to summon Fire Spirits, which is 3 more dice than it rolls to oppose, which means that on average you get one. And then you can send it off to go on a remote service, where the combination of its 24 die attack, its 22 points of hardened armor, and its 15 damage (AP minus Half) melee attack all combine to make it virtually unstoppable. You'll take drain. But the drain is really pretty modest. The spirit rolled 11 dice, so on average you take about 4 hits. This means that you are resisting about 8 DV. That's sort of a lot. But it won't kill you even if you completely flub the roll. And you can jolly well heal this because you are doing this from your house! -Frank |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:14 PM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
Yeah, sucks when that happens. When I first heard that essence costs were being largely reduced, I was overjoyed. Finally I could make my pet project - a character with full cyber-replacement (synthetic) ala Ghost in the Shell. Unfortunately, first off it takes over five essence to get the limbs. Second of all, I have to completely fill those limbs with STR/QCK/BOD enhancements to get to where a normal character would be without them. So no neat toys in the limbs. Also my initiative seems it will be low and really there is nothing neat about this character now other than that he has a metal body. Add that to the fact that it's now ultra-easy to spot any kind of synthetic limb, and instantly possible by touch even with deltaware, and my wish to play this character is mostly gone. Kind of a shame, actually. OSUMacbeth |
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Sep 3 2005, 11:24 AM
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#67
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
they made cyberlimbs WORSE?
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Sep 3 2005, 11:26 AM
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#68
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Shit. :S
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Sep 3 2005, 12:11 PM
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#69
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
Well, no, I wouldn't say worse per se. Some things are actually quite positive, as far as they go. They have a bit more space in them than previously, and there's a good deal of things that used to be essence only you can plop into them, but right now I'm running into a lot of "empty cyberlimb syndrome" because there's just not enough stuff in the core book to fill several limbs. It also hurts that each point of stat upgrade costs 1 capacity (15 in an obv arm) on top of anything else you want to put in. Also, it seems cyberlimbs now have a body attribute, so have fun paying that up as well. On the other hand, my first character has a partial obvious cyberarm. It contains a gyro-mount, about 1 point worth of essence stuff (costs .45), doesn't use its stats for anything important, and gives you an extra box of condition monitor (one point per limb). I'm quite happy with the partial limbs, but you start running into problems once you have to build up those stats. Friend of mine is trying the full cyber-mod idea now, so I'll have to see what he comes up with.
If your GM agrees, I believe a gyro-mount will fit into a hand, now. OSUMacbeth |
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Sep 3 2005, 12:19 PM
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#70
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 16-August 05 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 7,559 |
There is still the "old" problem with cyberlimbs: unaffected by Muscle Toner / Augmentation. You can only increase the stat of a limb by 3 without a cybertorse and all (!!!) limbs start with base stats of 3. Yes, even troll ones. I fail to understand how much you can put into eyes / ears and NOT in limbs. Ill still have to do the math, but I will reduce max. capacity on the libs to let them be balanced to the not needed attribute capacity then. Well the biggest hit the limbs took:
[SR4, page 335]
Edit: Working on rules there and killed some typo gremlins. |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:00 PM
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#71
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I have a character creation question... the rules state you can't spend more than half your points on attributes.... but some of the sample characters have like 220 spent in attributes... what gives?
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Sep 3 2005, 10:10 PM
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#72
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The 200 point limit is for Physical and Mental Attributes only. Edge, Magic, and Resonance don't apply to this limit. |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:38 PM
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#73
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Oooh, subtle. Thanks, wouldn't have caught that one.
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Sep 3 2005, 10:49 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 7-December 04 Member No.: 6,873 |
Now I want to make a totally awesome fire-elemental summoning physad. (Start with the fire-elemental summoning, then aspire into the physad).
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