 Buying Ammunition |
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 Aug 31 2005, 03:15 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517  |
A question my group has is "What is the correct way for purchasing ammunition in Shadowrun?"
The prices in SR3 are for buying 10 rounds of ammo, so it makes sense that the availability numbers are for buying 10 rounds. Some groups no doubt let you buy as much as you want once you make that etiquette roll once, but I've never really liked this idea. One thought was that for every success you got on that etiquette test, your contact offered you another 10 rounds at the rate you were paying for the first 10. The other method was that for every two points your highest roll exceeded the TN you got another 10 rounds. I tend to like the successes idea, since it rewards people who actually invest in Etiquette skill. My problem with the "buy as much as you like" idea is that I don't like the group running around using nothing but anti-vehicular for the rest of their lives after they make one lucky roll. However, it's a 2-DM game, so it's not that simple. So I'm wondering, what are your opinions on the above rule variants, and what are some of the community's tried and true methods for buying ammo? Is there an "official way?" OSUMacbeth |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:27 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Just decide how much the contact has available.
Unless their contact is the manager of a large bullet factory, they will have a limited supply. For most standard ammo at a Win Co they're not going to have more than two cases (which would be about 200 rounds for small ammo and 100 rounds for large calibers, each). Why would your contact have a truck load? Make it simple. Military ammo comes in the cool green boxes. 500 rounds. That's what a successful roll gets you. Want more? I'll see what I can do. |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:32 PM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
With AV ammo it's more or less one-hit-one-kill, so 500 rounds might as well be "using nothing but AV for the rest of their lives".
~J |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:33 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
I was about to say the very same thing. :)
OSUMacbeth |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:39 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 6-August 02 From: Kiel, Germany Member No.: 3,071 |
You should have seem the smile on the face of one of my players when his weapons dealer offered him a little mahagonie box with satin inlay and 70 shiny AV rounds... 200Y a piece...
He never thought and bought them all, including the box... |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:41 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
I must say this is much closer to my vision of the universe. The problem is convincing the other DM.
OSUMacbeth |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:45 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Um, ammo is generally available by the truck load... Even an order of 500,000+ rounds is not likely to cause an eyeblink, at least if you have a properly forged end user certificate. In fact, its ordering less than a few hundred thousand rounds that will get you looked at funny (what are you going to do with only 100,000 rounds of ammunition?, a infantry company of 100 guys firing 100 rounds a day on a 2 week training cycle will use 140,000 rounds and training cycles of 1000 rounds a day are done occasionally.
At the minimum, your contact should have at least a 'box' of ammo (20-100 rounds), depending on the ammo type. But any useful contact should be able to get you ammo at more than a box at the time. At least a case (10-20 boxes of ammo at the time). |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:49 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
I agree, ammo is generally available in large amounts...to those who are legally allowed to own it. In shadowrun, we are dealing in the black market, with a commodity that literally every shadowrunner with a gun wants. It's truly a seller's market, in that respect.
OSUMacbeth |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:54 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Isn't gun ownership in 60s Seattle such that you can just go to the nearest WalMart (or whatever) and pick up 100 rounds or so?
A person buying 5 boxes of ammo wouldn't raise a ripple here and now. |
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Aug 31 2005, 03:57 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
Actually, all ammo except APDS and AV have a legality equal to their gun. Also, APDS and AV are specifically illegal no matter the gun they go to.
OSUMacbeth |
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Aug 31 2005, 04:58 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Of the two options you presented I like the 10 rounds per success one best although I think it should be better presented as 1 box per sucess. Those here pointing out that it's not difficult to get ammo in bulk are in general correct, and it may be more realistic to buy/sell per case. However I think game balance suffers under such conditions. A lot of course depends upon how you view the setting. One view is that runners are scraping for everything they get, and counting the number of APDS rounds they have left with their fingers and trying to decide if they should load them for this target is part of that worldview. Others may have westwinds be the common ride and assault cannons the typical sidearm. Having it be exceedly difficult to get ammo in such a world would be odd I think. Myself, I fall somewhere in the middle. One thing I did to make ammo counting a little easier was lump the standard rounds into the monthly cost of living. So I only made the characters pay for a total amount on hand, and it's considered to be replaced as a matter of course (it also allows them to practice). High End ammo needs to be brought and tracked and is gone when used. |
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Aug 31 2005, 05:01 PM
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#12
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In my opinion this is something that needs a little GM fiat. Ordinary rounds should be purchasable by the crate with a single success, and by the tonne with five or six. AV ammo, however, might be a pack of 10 per success.
~J |
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Aug 31 2005, 05:47 PM
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#13
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
House rule: There is no AV ammunition for small arms. Large sniper rifles and MMG and HMGs will accept AV ammo. Nothing smaller will. When attempting to purchase AV or APDS ammo the character is subject to the Wrong Party rules and can potentially attempt to buy from an undercover police officer.
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Aug 31 2005, 05:54 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Not a unreasonable rule if you're going by realism. Have your reduced the appearance of heavy armors and drones as well? |
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Aug 31 2005, 07:16 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 944 Joined: 19-February 03 Member No.: 4,128 |
Bravo. I have gone by this for a long time. I feel AV ammo has to be either shaped-charge or one of the LONG acronym ammo types (like APFSDSDU-T for example) to be more effective than "AP" ammo. Neither is worth the time under about 12mm or so. |
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Aug 31 2005, 07:50 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
The smallest APDS that I'm aware of is the .50 cal Browning SLAP round. They attempted a 7.62 version, but it caused significant weapon malfunctions without a real gain in penetration. Smallest shape charge I recall is 40mm (is there one in 37mm?). With this type of ammo the effect is a direct relationship with the diameter of the charge, which means typical firearm diameter versions would have less penetration than a solid bullet. But I think it's common knowledge that the SR terms for APDS and AV are whacked- as far as today's technology goes. But then again, perhaps those terms don't really mean what we think they mean- they may reference a different but related technology that's 60 years ahead of us. So while I consider it reasonable to house rule them away (or limit them to specific classes of weapons), I don't look down on anyone running them straight out the book either. In our campaigns I redefined the ammo types to match today's with the suitable restrictions as result, i.e. no APDS unless it's .50 cal or bigger, AV is meaningless- do you want HEAT or APFSDS?, and so forth. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:08 PM
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#17
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
One thing to remember about advances in SR armor piercing technology is the SR armor technology has advanced at a similar rate. This is the game that has a bulletproof bodysuit that is sheer enough to see a boobies through.
A lack of AV weapons makes tanks and drones even more fun. The characters either have to get creative or stand back and let the rigger handle it. There is the famous Called Shot to Bypass Armor to allow the Smartlinked Sammie to take out a Medusa in a single light pistol shot. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:12 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
My personal houserule is that armor-penetrating rounds don't come in anything smaller than SMG-class, AV rounds don't come in anything smaller than rifle-class. It bends realism but ends up, with current vehicle damage rules, making armored vehicles a not-totally-insurmountable challenge.
~J |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:15 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Actually here I'm more worried about the effect of player owned drones. If I have to arm the NPC guards with weapons to take them out, said weapons will find their way in to PC hands after the prying of warm dead fingers. And thus the orginal restriction has been dodged. I like avoiding arm races if possible, especally since such things tend to end up with parity in type if not number in any case. All this may just mean that one needs to watch what armor appears on drones and vehicles as much as they need to watch ammo types. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:23 PM
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#20
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Mounted weapons help solve this problem, both on drones and fixed gun turrents controled by a security rigger. Once the gunfire starts, runners really don't have time to exercise their gun turret B/R skills. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:23 PM
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#21
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I consider SR3 availability to be widely useless.
- Frequency of tests. One of our players asks his fixer for both APDS and AV once per run. You may call it participating in ammunition lottery, I call it annoying. - Difficulty. The chance of getting said ammunition typ or whatever special equipment should depend on the occupation of the connection asked. The "fixed" TNs might be an indicator of common / rare / ultra-rare on the street, but are inadequate for use with "appropiate" - rather than random - connections. - Skill mechanic. I donīt like using Etiquette for determining inventory levels. It should only be used to convince someone who is not a connection to sell. (Its main use should be representing a certain subculture.) So we often use GM fiat for exotic ware. If you want AV for small arms, bring pizza or cake. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:34 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
I thought this point was a given in the rules, i.e. left up to the GM to determine based upon the nature of the contact and the requested item. I do agree about the lotto nature of the availablity rules. For my own use, I losely tie the process to the street rep of the characters. If their rep isn't high enough, it doesn't matter what they roll. And I've also as a house rule split the roll in two, the PCs roll to see if the contact is willing to do the sale, but the NPC rolls to see if he can get the goods at all. |
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Aug 31 2005, 08:51 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Keep in mind that the street index is for buying something illegally. I don't have a carry permit but I could run down to the Gold Nugget Pawn Shop 10 minutes from my chair and buy all the ammo I wanna. My group usually doesn't even roll for regular, hollowpoint, and other commonplace ammo types. For Ex Ex, AV, APDS, however...
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Aug 31 2005, 08:53 PM
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#24
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
So how many pizzas for a clip of AV rounds? How many cakes? Does pie figure into this at all? :) |
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Aug 31 2005, 09:06 PM
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#25
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
I paid a group of 5 once, in a heavily modified Browning Max Power, and 3 clips full of APDS (and a walnnut box, and a cleaning kit, and an internal SL2 with range finder...and...and). Officially it wasent cannon leagel (what, no extended barrel pistols?), but it sounded dead sexy.
They where VERY happy with that payment. |
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