 Where are the SR4 hate threads? |
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 Sep 1 2005, 08:06 PM
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#51
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Running, running, running  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769  |
well, we know that the LE's were sold out basically within the hour of them hitting the floor every day at gencon....
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Sep 1 2005, 08:09 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
But selectivly cleaning up mechanics would not lead to a more unified system, if anything it would push the system closer to being "5 different games you can play together" |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:16 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
Hell, thats the way I felt about SR3 for the longest time anyways. We always had to use house rules for rigging and decking because there wasn't enough information in the BBB and the later Rigger 3 and Matrix books took the info from the BBB and made it all into one big clusterf*ck. This made the group I play with run things like rigger only campaigns or decker only campaigns, or even campaigns where they were flat out illegal to play. Made it feel like we were playing different versions of the same game. |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:16 PM
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#54
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
No not really at all.
There was never anything stopping rigging, magic, decking, and combat from all using the same mechanic. For whatever reason they just never did it. I used a short hand version of rigging and decking that was essentially the same system. An SR3R would have been far better than SR4. I am sure there will be huge initial sales. It's new, theres lots of marketing, there at a con that gets like 100k people in the doors. If its good the sales will stay strong as it workd of mouth spreads. If its bad we will know within a year or so. The sad part is that it will probably be in between. Just with a new audience. More D20'ers who think it needs work but who still play it as opposed to the SR3'ers playing it and saying it needs work. |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:17 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Only if you're myopic.
Part of cleaning is to make everything use a couple of core methods as much as possible. It's not completely possible, because different activities are different (not just the same stuff with different names), but you can do it just as well in a cleaning as you can in a complete rewrite. |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:31 PM
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#56
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I doubt they'll give those out directly. Outside of them having sold out the 1,000 LE books. You are going to only get vaugh "not as well as we planned"/"on track"/"better than expected" type responces from Fanpro. However there is likely an industry group publication though that'll have an idea in a month or three. Someone from the industry here should be able to point the way if there is one. EDIT: Oh, and ordering a second printing also gives a good ballpark figure of sales at that point. At least how much they've shipped into the distribution channels. |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:33 PM
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#57
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
.... only truely major "cleaning" tends to have so much overhead that you don't really save a whole lot, if any at all. |
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Sep 1 2005, 08:44 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Which I would argue most of us just prefer to call SR4, not SR3-reloaded ---Edit--- Not that anyone's way of playing SR is better or worse. I don't tend to see SR4 as being horribly different, but then again they seem to have perfected/implimented most of our groups houserules. This post has been edited by Bandwidthoracle: Sep 1 2005, 08:48 PM |
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Sep 1 2005, 09:17 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
To be honest, my biggest complaint about SR4 is the fact it's more invariable than Call of Cthulhu is when it comes to campaign styles. And CoC itself has, at most, 10 campaign styles it can support, as opposed to the 121 million of GURPS or the 200 of SR3. The rest of the complaints are all merely what adds up to the biggest one.
Due to dice mechanics, SR4 cannot support the type of ultra-corp, we-are-hired-by-governments campaign style, or even anything even close to it. It is a street style game, and the entirety of the mechanics are geared towards that. That is why it has easily-reached limits and why the entire dice system starts to fall apart when you start getting into anything above a 6 in anything. That's also why the advancement system is the way it is. Using that for a group of UCAS marines really doesn't support the "we're badass and you know it" style associated with that type of campaign. And, when you get cases where the PCs are running a corporation and dealing with other corporations (say, my campaign or a similar style The Grat Krass is involved in), then pretty much the entire system falls apart or actually actively discourages it. It's much like how much you have to tweak DnD to create a low-powered campaign without heavy magic involvement. In the end, it would take me two weeks just to create enough houserules to make SR4 compatible with anything above street and manage to have actual game balance. Unlike SR3, SR4 simply doesn't scale. |
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Sep 1 2005, 09:23 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Talislanta never died. Still in publication under it's 4th edition rules. They came out with a d20 version to generate interest. (And hopefully get some of the d20 crowd over to the 'True' Tal system). The upcoming source books are supposed to be dual statted. I know that the Menagerie is.
Yeeha. Thats the way it should have been done. |
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Sep 1 2005, 09:52 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
I have read the book (legally, so shaddap).
I have participated in IRC run-throughs of the game system. I have come to the conclusion that it just isn't as good as SR3, nor as playable. It's not streamlined, it's obfuscated for obfuscation's sake. It has glaring logical errors throughout that personally annoy and anger me, and there are definite examples of bad taste within the BBB (references to pedophilia and bunraku parlors--mind you, I do believe that should exist, but whoever put it into the BBB that is likely to be the main source for parents who want to decide whether their children can play SR4 is moronic at best. Oh, and the cursing annoys me, too.). |
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Sep 1 2005, 09:54 PM
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#62
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Is there a lot of that? There was a little in System Failure (it was heavy in the final fiction) and it was annoying. If I had known about it before hand I am not sure I would have bought it. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:05 PM
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#63
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
They changed "Frag" to "Fuck". Although there is a new curse word "Glitch". Lots of non-cursing Or'zet has made it into the SR4 vernacular apparently, as well.
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Sep 1 2005, 10:12 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
How is 'glitch' used? It almost sounds like something that would replace 'slot'.
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Sep 1 2005, 10:14 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
Fifteen years of "frag" and now we have "fuck."
Let's all pause and raise a glass to the folks who were at least somewhat restrained for a while. Yeah, we all curse like sailors--but we aren't writing books that potential pissants might read. "SHADOWRUN SAYS FUCK! IT'S LIKE GTA! NO MORE OF IT FOR YOU!" Yeah...I exaggerate. But it's just bad taste, IMO. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:17 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Actually, I don't think you are exaggerating. I think people will actually say that.
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Sep 1 2005, 10:21 PM
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#67
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Meh. As long as it's not that "Devil Worshipping DnD game", parents won't give it a second thought. Heck, they'd probably even tolerate that "weirdo goth Vampire game", too.
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Sep 1 2005, 10:29 PM
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#68
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Well, the horned skull is gone, so that's one less Satanic-reference to be leveled at SR by the parents of Little Timmy the Noob.
Mind you, I liked the skull... |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:30 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
In my expierence working at game stores, yeah, parents care. They do look at what their kids buy. No, not all of them. And yeah, lots of kids 'sneak' out and buy it. But tehre are enough- parents out there that watch what their kids buy. (And this was ten years ago, if anything I think parents look closer now, thank the video game and music indusrty for that) My opinion is that that stuff doesn't need to be there. Either use the slang SR invented, or nothing at all. And sex in any incarnation has no place in a core rule book. Period. It's in bad taste. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:31 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
eh?? At first I wrote off most posts about SR4 being bad as complaints about the power level of the game being turned down. this post takes the cake. So, you have played campaign where the stats are higher than 6? thats funny, as you can only have on exceptional skill.... Also, exactly *how* does the system fall apart when the numbers go above 6? What house rules do you need? Care to list any? I guess I just don't see these glaring problems that the bitter board warriors are posting about. Stat 3 + Skill 3 = 6 dice. Targets are 5 not 4, so what? Old system it was 6 skills, max attributes. Max everything. Shadowrun 3 was more like playing with a cheat code enabled. It was fun, but jesus, when a player says that a 5 will power on a human mage was gimping himslef (and this is a new player), something is wrong. now 4 willpower, + 4 logic is 8 dice to resist that spell. BTW, I have NEVER suffered drain from a spell in SR3. I mean never. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:33 PM
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#71
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
No, CirclMastr. That's my entire statement. It's not a defense because I'm not defending anything. I'm simply seeking to point out a very basic fact that people seem to forget around DSF sometimes. Namely: "If you don't like it, don't use it." (Insert sound of editing here) I just wonder what kind of worst fears people have when SR4 is the sum total of realizing them. I haven't seen the game, but I've kept up with the rules changes here. And you know what? It seems different. Rather different. But I'm not going to say "Different = TEH SUCK" until I've actually played a few games, with a few different styles. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:33 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Maybe you weren't playing 'right'? |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:33 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
list examples please. I may be just too stupid to know what the hell you are talking about. I think all the bitching is just typical full of shit complaing for complaining sakes. |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:40 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548 |
Examples of which? The lack of streamlining? I see as many or more dice to roll and numbers to twiddle in SR4 as I ever used in a previous SR game. Combats seem to take longer, too. I'm sure you're capable of some level of literacy. Read the hundreds of other posts that have amplified on the game-system suckage of SR4. I don't feel like rewriting them to suit your fancy. Examples of the hideous editorial idiocy inherent in the book? Jesus, did you not read my post or something? |
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Sep 1 2005, 10:43 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 17-April 05 Member No.: 7,341 |
Hum, I think on this point he is right... If you were min/maxing a little bit your character, you didn't really suffer from drain. Especially if you started using foci, which were really too powerful (even a "small" one like a 2 level power focus)... This is only my opinion, I might be wrong, but we were not a "Powa Gamers" group... and we were all thinking that SR3 was way too unbalanced. |
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