 Bringing back Voodoo, Possession Magic for SR4 |
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 Sep 2 2005, 11:34 PM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Dude... I'm right here. Please don't talk about me in the third person on my own thread, it's exceptionally rude. However, pretending for the moment that your objection (not actually articulated by you until now) was phrased in a coherent and polite fashion to me, I can now address it: There is no reason in SR4 for Insect Totems or Voodoo to have "GM approval, not recommended" flags on them. Magic Threats still need those (and should probably have the "you can't play one, stop asking" tags instead), but the traditions of magic can be integrated just fine without the Threat potential for use by PCs. The SR3 Voodoo and Insect Spirit rules were extremely specific - a spirit of Azaca or Obatalla and a spirit of Ant Worker or Warrior behaved entirely different from a game mechanical fashion. Much like how Water Elementals, River Spirits, and Ocean Spirits all had their own crazy rules. But in SR4, spirits have been simplified. Each character can summon exactly five, and so as long as the spirits stay general, that's plenty to cover just about any tradition you'd care to think of. But while we have nothing against people playing Berserkers or Jade Wheel society Members, or Houngans, it's still unbalanced for people to have possession magic and manifesting spirits at the same time (since other traditions have to choose between one or the other, I don't think I have to draw you a diagram to show how it would be overpowered to be able to choose both). So if the spirits who possess people are off separate lists, there are going to be a bunch of spirits that are going to be part of traditions that should be freely available to PC use - but combinations of spirit types that should be banned outright. Let's say that we make the barest minimum number of possessor spirits available for summoning - that would be five. Now we have five spirits that are perfectly OK for PCs to use and don't bother us a bit. But we have to ban every combination that has at least one spirit form the basic book and one spirit from the new list (because having both is rightly banned). That's 30 unique pairs that are not allowed. That's four hundred and fifty five total packages that are not allowed. In the simplest possible case. In a more reasonable setup, where we add an additional 4 potentially summonable standard materializers and about 7 possessors, we are left with banning five thousand, nine hundred and fifteen combinations (or perhaps specifically allowing the remaining two hundred and seventy three, but honestly I don't want to go there either). So now that I know what your objection is, I hope you don't get offended when I say that I don't consider it a problem. Yes, you could do things by specifically banning the problem spirit groups, but that's a much taller order than just setting it up so that there aren't any problem groups in the first place.
The power is with the spirit. The tradition replaces "astral form" and "materialization" with "dual natured" and "possession" - so your problem here isn't one. Remember, a Berserker gets possessed by Sky Father (Air Spirits), Earth Mother (Earth Spirits), Narwhal (I'm guessing Water Spirits), Great Warrior (needs a new "Warrior Spirit", which will also serve for Obatala and Wasp Warriors), and Bear or Wolf (which are collectively Beast Spirits). That's five (assuming that we make Bear and Wolf into the same thing). So to do Bererkers up right we need to either: Rewrite all the spirits that do basically the same thing that a possessor tradition needs to do (which is all of them when you include just Houngans, Berserkers, Invae, and Disciples of the Holy Spirit). Then write all the extra spirits that these traditions need (Worker Spirits, Warrior Spirits, Fertility Spirits, and Ancestor Spirits). Then rewrite all of those spirits that various traditions of materializing summoning magicians need (all of them actually). Then, and this is the most important part, make fraggin sure somehow that nothing from column A ends up in column B even though the only real difference is the availability of the "possession" or "materialization" power in case after case, which basically means that Players can't be trusted to select their own spirits any more. Or... Write all the new spirits you need for the new traditions you are introducing. Put in a rule that allows an individual tradition to swap Possession for Materialization on all the spirits it summons. Which one of these is less work? I'm guessing that the one where you write up four new spirits and a rule that's perhaps as long as three sentences is perhaps a tiny bit simpler and easier to convey than the one in which you write up fourteen new spirit types and then write up a rule that out of the 15,504 possible combinations of spirits, only 504 of them should be considered acceptable under any circumstances. Which one works better game mechanically? Well, actually they are exactly the same at this point. Just that one involves several extra layers for mistakes to be made and the other does not. --- Now back to your Free Spirit complaint... one of us is obviously not taking their crazy pills. I honestly don't see how spirits that show up spontaneously on their own not being summoned and bound into physical bodies is at all a problem. Or if it was, you could just say that sometimes spirits manifest spontaneously into bodies as if they were summoned by possession magicians instead of the regular kind. -Frank |
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Sep 3 2005, 03:28 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
First off, you're ignoring my point about mixed possession/manifestion traditions or suggesting it is bad ("No mixing of Column A and Column B"). Just because real-world traditions only have possession now doesn't mean there won't be manifestation later.
Second, the old SR books had 4 sets of spirit stats per insect totem. No real change from my warrior/drone/worker/queen concept. No extra work on that front. Third, I don't see variety to be a problem. More is generally better as long as they are not redundant and are balanced. At a certain point there's no difference but a name. Fourth, I disagree that all spirits would be possssion type. Meaning no need to recreate Fire, Water, Earth or Air elementals with possession. Lastly, I personally think the berserker would fit a Mystic Adept better. |
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Sep 3 2005, 03:37 AM
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#28
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think it's safe to say that while all of us like the (re)addition of Voodoo as a tradition, some of us disagree with your specific implementation of it. While it may be fine for your gaming group, and some others may like it, some of us find the details of how you intend to implement it either counter to the spirit of the SR4 rules (breaking of tradition barriers) or too restrictive or rules-heavy when a simple GM approval will suffice.
I don't think it would be too unbalancing to have a tradition that can summon both possession and manifesting spirits, if the tradition is given careful thought and consideration, and not there to combine "best of both worlds". Unless, of course, it is a Path of the Righ NPC magician... |
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Sep 3 2005, 03:56 AM
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#29
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm not ignoring it, but I am saying it's bad. Materializing spirits have a great deal of utility inherent in their ability to do that. Possessing spirits have a great deal of utility locked up in that ability as well. When you possess yourself you can drastically increase your own survivability in some cases (you get weapon immunity for goodness sake), apply your skills to the stat line of a spirit, or just use spirit powers over and over again until the possession time runs out - but a materializing spirit can be sent on a remote service suicide run against people on the other side of a wall or fly up in the air to go deal with a problem. Years of experience and two editions worth of Houngan play have shown us that possession summoners are potentially balanced against summoners of external manifesting spirits. But they haven't shown us that the ability to summon both externally manifesting spirits and possessing spirits is balanced against the ability to do either one alone. In fact, that's impossible. Assuming that the ability to possess yourself or to summon an externally manifesting spirit is worth anything, which I think is a pretty safe assumption, then the ability to do both is by definition better than the ability to do one or the other. A + B > A v B. That's not subject to debate as long as both A and B are positive, and in this case they are.
Absolutely. But once you've balanced the Hermetic (who can summon five different kinds of spirit that start in astral form and have the materialization power) against the Houngan (who can summon five different types of spirit that all possess his own body), then you're up a creek trying to balance that against the Omniconjurer (who can summon 2 different spirits that start in astral form and can materialize and 3 different spirits that he can possess himself with). The Omniconjurer can do the primary schtick of both the Hermetic and the Houngan, and that's never ever going to be balanced. Sure, the Hermetic can conjure up a Fire Spirt, but the Omniconjurer can put energy aura on an air spirit as one of the optional powers if he for some reason wants to do that. And while the Houngan can possess herself with Legba and get movement at will for 12 hours(or whatever), the Omniconjurer can take movement as an optional power on a spirit of Obatala and get the same game mechanically important effect. As to redundancy, I find the idea of having a separate write-up for "Spirits of Agwe" that have the ability to possess people to be totally redundant with "Spirits of Water". It's just plain easier to toggle that one power set than it is to make an entirely new writeup that is only really different in that one power.
You're welcome to think that. I certainly won't barge into your house and execute you for thought crimes or anything, but I completely disagree. The word "Berserker" comes from the word "Bear". Berserkers were supposed to literally take the spirits of animals into themselves giving them great strength, near invulnerability to weapons, and animalistic madness. If that doesn't get to be "spirit possession", then I honestly don't know what does. -Frank |
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Sep 3 2005, 06:32 AM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Oh man, that brings back memories. I miss Bugaboo sometimes. *sigh* But this guy writes like he studied at the foot of the master himself. |
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Sep 3 2005, 07:54 AM
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#31
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
By the way, the report post button is broken and the "forums@dumpshock.com" address is undeliverable to. Does anyone know how one actually gets the Moderator to come down on someone who repeatedly hijacks a thread by using third person insults and tirades about irrelevent people on different boards?
I'm not new to Shadowrun, but I am new to Dumpshock, do we really have to put up with people being unrepentent jerks like this? That seems like a recipe for collapse into total anarchy and flame war territory if true. I realize that Blakkie probably thinks he's being funny, but mostly he's just being a net troll. I'd like that sort of behavior to go to an off topic forum where I don't have to look at it amongst serious discussion of actual rules issues. -Frank |
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Sep 3 2005, 09:27 AM
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#32
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Hmm, the problem with your report post button may be browser based, which browser are you using?
And yes, you more or less have to put up with people like that. It's usually better to ignore them, as getting defensive just weakens your position. From what I remember, bug shamans were able to have both 'true form' manefesting spirits and 'flesh form' possessing spirits. Ideally, I'd like the 'tradition creation system' to be able to handle someone who can do both, but this will lead to either single 'spirit type' summoners gimped or require making half power type rules for a tradition that chooses to do both. One quick idea is to not allow the summoer to call manefesting spirits while possesed but they still have versatility over single type summoners... |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:12 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 7-February 05 Member No.: 7,063 |
Bug spirits would be a bit problematic. Even thier true form spirits (ie, traditional, non-corporeal entities) had to be invested into a human host for an incubation period. Then depending on a roll of the dice, they became true or flesh forms. In either case the host is fragged.
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Sep 3 2005, 03:23 PM
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#34
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Mozilla. That's an open-source Netscape, so I would think that it would work fine. Oh well.
I was afraid of that. Shucks. On to important matters:
Yes. Sort of. When a Bug Shaman took a normal human and forcibly implanted a spirit into him or her, that person eventually made a Willpower test, and the number of successes determined what came out the other end: True Form (which was an astral spirit with manifestation), Flesh Form (a permanently dual natured creature), Flesh-Form with the ability to nearly be copyright infringement on W40K Genestealer Cults, and finally "Stealth Form" (which was human looking and had masking for no reason). The spirits you actually summoned were Worker, Soldier, and Queen (which did not exist in the whole True-Form/Flesh Form thing). So to a very real degree, that's five spirit types right there: Flesh Form Workers, True Form Workers, Flesh Form Soldiers, True Form Soldiers, and Queens. However, while sacrificing a human is sort of a high price to pay for a maerializing bound spirit, in many ways it isn't, and the combination of physical possessed humans with astral materializers was very very powerful (more powerful than anyone in SR4 is supposed to be). Certainly, with the body counts that some SR groups rack up, the need to sacrifice a human every time you made a bound spirit would amount to little more than flavor text in a lot of instances. I would rather just make up a spirit type for Workers, Soldiers, and Queens, and then give them two of the basic ones (I suggest Air Spirits and Beast Spirits myself, but your mileage may vary). This would be something of a departure for Insect Spirits, but put them firmly on the power level of Houngans - and if the SR4 goal of fighting rulesbloa is to be achieved, that's the direction we have to go. I think that uniting Hermetic and Shamanic Conjuring is a bigger step, and SR4 has already done that. Comparatively, folding the Invae into Voodoo is very minor indeed.
One option I've seriously considered is adding an Edg... Positive Quality that would allow dual summoning. Perhaps a 10 or 15 pointer. That's kind of cheap, but a conjurer is already seriously pushing the 35 point Positive Qualities limit just by being a Magician in the first place. ---- The Great Loa: Agwe - Now a Spirit of Water Azaca - Now a Spirit of Man Damballah - This is a hard one. Partly this could be done as a Spirit of Beasts, but really the signature ability is Divination and Magical Guard, along with Animal Control. This should therefore be whatever the Queen Spirit gets called by Insect shaman. So I guess it's an ancestor Spirit Erzulie - Now also a Spirit of Man Ghede - Now an Ancestor Spirit. Legba - Also an Ancestor Spirit. Obatala - Still an Ancestor Spirit. Ogoun - This is a tough one. Both Ogoun and Shango should be Fire Spirits you'd think, but Fire Spirits actually don't have Fire Immunity in SR4 (typo?), and in any case don't get Concealment. So Ogoun and Shango work out as Air Spirits bizzarely enough. Shango - Air Spirit, but see above. So all 9 of the great loa (and the Work Loa Zombies) can be fit into five categories: Water Air (?) Man Ancestor Worker Ancestor Spirits have the following powers: Accident, (Astral Form), Confusion, Divination, Guard, Magical Guard, (Materialization), and Search. And the following Optional Powers: Animal Control, Concealment, Influence, Mind Link. ---- To get the old Invaesion under way, Magical Threats should probably have the following additional powers available to their spirits: Aura Masking. Conjuring (the spirit gets a skill in Conjuring, which can be real small and still have this be a bad bad thing for everyone around). -Frank |
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Sep 3 2005, 03:56 PM
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#35
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I think some of this is starting to move in the right direction, but I have a question about that spirit breakdown.
Why Ancestor spirits? The current view with SR4 is that Ancestor spirits have mostly been rolled into Spirits of Man. And in the case of this breakdown, I don't see much need for re-creating the Ancestor spirit category. The only real difference between Spirits of Man and the Ancestor Spirits you have there is Divination, which isn't a listed power in the SR4 core book (at least in my drafts, I don't have a physical copy of the book yet). That and the Mind Link optional power, which also isn't in the SR4 core book. Seems to me that when SR4 gets around to the advanced spirit rules (whether that's in Street Magic or Running Wild, I don't know yet), you could just expand Spirits of Man to include the new critter powers of Possession, Divination, Mind Link, and whatever else is necessary. You could also add Possession as an optional power to other spirit types, which often comes into play in the Voudoun tradition. Combining that Ancestor spirit type into Man opens up a fifth category for Voudoun, which I think Spirits of Beasts would fit well into. I do like the idea of an added spirit category of Worker Spirits, which if done right, could definitely be used by both Voudoun and Insect Shamans, though with different flavor. I could also imagine Worker Spirits being used by other traditions, like Qabbalism (the golem myth, for instance). |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:14 PM
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#36
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Because Spirits of Man don't get access to Divination, Magical Guard, Mind Link or Animal Control. That's four powers that are key to several Loa and Queen Spirits. The way the optional powers system works in SR4, we can then get all the key powers of Queens, Ghede, Legba, Obatala and Damballah without making up five different new spirits.
But none of the spirits had divination or magical guard in the last three editions of the base book either, so I'm OK with that.
That's a possibility. But I'm currently operating under the assumption that conjurors don't get any more powerful than they already are, and that additional traditions should be balanced against magicians as they stand now. Which means that it's OK for them to summon different spirits with different powers, but not to just add powers to spirits as they currently stand.
Absolutely. I'm looking mostly at them having a larger and more optionalized skill list than other spirits. A spirit that has Artisan would be extremely useful, even if it never got energy aura. -Frank |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:33 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The Report feature does not function. Perhaps disabled to avoid frivilous [ab]use? Or that could just be a coincidental benefit. :cyber: |
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Sep 3 2005, 04:35 PM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, true, but no one gets access to Divination or Mind Link yet, because those powers don't exist yet in SR4. When those powers are added to the game, I could definitely see Spirits of Man getting access to them. On Magical Guard, all bound spirits in SR4 can add dice to Counterspelling, which is what Spell Defense has become in SR4. The only catch is that the spirit can only add Counterspelling dice that apply to spells in its category (each of the five spirit categories a magician can summon in SR4 being linked to one of the five spell categories). The lack of Animal Control on Spirits of Man might be a problem, but I'm not sure yet. I think in terms of Voudoun, that's why I'd like to see Spirits of Beasts added, to allow them to have those effects elsewhere. As for Queens, I'm really leery of classifying Insect Queens as Spirits of Man. Mainly because insect shamans don't conjure multiple Queen spirits, they can only have one. Queens are more like Mentor Spirits, in a way, but they are very physically real Mentor Spirits.
I see what you're saying, but I wouldn't be surprised if the spirit power lists were expanded when new powers are added. At the very least in the Optional Powers category (since that doesn't really make any single spirit more powerful, it just broadens the possibilities). I think that's more likely than adding new spirit categories which are very similar to existing ones.
Yeah, I can definitely see them as some sort of general-purpose laborer spirit. Possibly one that doesn't possess Materialization, but must invest itself into some shell. Voudoun often uses corpses (zombies), Insect Shamans use metahuman hosts, Qabbalists use constructed golems, etc. |
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Sep 3 2005, 05:06 PM
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Buh wha? That's bull.
Inappropriate scaling. As long as you still have two lists, the problem does not increase, no matter how much you imply it does.
"A single tradition may not summon both spirits capable of materialization and spirits capable of possession." Either I am badly misunderstanding the argument here, or you win the straw man of the month award already.
It isn't. Try actually submitting a report. Or trying to view the moderator list. ~J |
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Sep 3 2005, 09:34 PM
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#40
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Kage, if you have two lists, you're doing it my way, except with hierarchical control at a lower level which makes you have to write up twice as many spirits. Kage's Suggestion: Introduce new rule that a tradition can choose all of its spirits off an entirley separate list in which all the spirits have had Astral Form and Materialization swapped out for Dual Natured and Possession. (Requires actually writing this second copy of every single spirit type) My Suggestion: Introduce a new rule that a tradition can swap Astral Form and Materialization for Dual Natured and Possession on all of the spirits that they can summon. Properly employed, these are equivalent statements. The only real difference is that the Kage suggestion requires you to write up N new spirit entries (where N is the number of spirits the game supports at that time), and implies that someone might be able to con their GM into letting them play a Path of the Righ Omniconjuror at no cost. I don't see the advantage. The number of new rules is identical. The end effect is identical. The only game mechanical difference is that your way of handling things requires more paper to explain the same concept, and the only logistical difference is that the intent of your version is less clear.
Elementals have always been able to do that, and yet the Magical Guard power has existed just fine in previous editions. The Magical Guard power allows: 1. The use of a Skill in addition to just Force. 2. The counterspelling of a spell from any school of magic instead of just one. That's a big deal, and more than enough to justify a power.
Technically, Queens are the character in the old rules, and the shaman is just the flunky. The Queen has her own Conjuring Skill and the Shaman loses all his power if the Queen dies. But we'd scale that aspect back if the Insect Spirits became PCs (which they could if they drank a little less crazy juice in terms of unique game mechanics). As to what to call the spirit that is Damballah, Obatala, or a Queen - honestly I don't care. Game mechanically it could be called "Spirit #7" or whatever. It's just a list of powers that overlaps somewhat with the other spirits and has a few unique schticks (access to Magical Guard, Mind Link, and Divination). I chose to call it "Ancestor Spirit" because it had the special powers that Ancestor Spirits had in SR3 (which Spirits of Man do not), and because "Ancestor" is a term that can be bent to include a Hive Queen (because she's the all-mother) or Ghede (because he's totally dead already). If it's important to you that "Ancestor" spirits be Spirits of Man now, then the new spirit type will need a new name. It still needs to be there though, because the powers are not (and should not be) available on any of the Spirits in the basi book. Spirits of Man are already extremely powerful with the fact that they have the ability to cast any spell the summoner knows with a Magic Attribute and spellcasting skill equal to their force. I seriously don't think they need to gain access to all the cool things that a Hive Queen can do on top of that. -Frank |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:19 PM
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#41
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
It's a big deal, yeah, but I wouldn't necessarily assume that power will exist in SR4. Something like it might appear, but with the way Spell Defense and Spirits have been reworked, it may just vanish.
I definitely wouldn't reach as far as to say that FanPro will ever make Insect Shaman a playable possibility. They really aren't meant to be. But I do think there will be an attempt to work them into the existing mechanics. That may mean that Insect Shaman, instead of a Mentor Spirit, have something else, which is definitely more concrete. The Queen. Or it may take the form of something like a spirit pact, which might be open to other spellcasters (but Insect Shaman form a pact with a unique type of spirit, the Insect Queen spirits).
Yeah, I really don't see Spirits of Man and Insect Queens having anything in common at all. Conceptually or on a power comparison basis. |
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Sep 3 2005, 10:20 PM
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#42
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Dude, you're not defending a thesis here. You don't have to prove that you are "right" and that we are "wrong". A key and essential part of forum discussion is opening the topic for other alternative suggestions, and encouraging diversion rather than adoption. Most of what I'm seeing is a debate over semantics and subjective personal preference. Some people will choose to do it differently, and not only do you have to be willing to accept this, but encourage it as well.
The discussion is coming off as being flame-worthy from the original poster, taking offense at criticism (especially with the fact that you were trying to report other people) rather than someone who is open-minded and willing to discuss new ideas. Take a chill pill, relax, and remember, you don't have to reply to every single person in the thread. You've done a good enough job explaining how you want to implement your house rules already. |
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