New Orleans = Chicago Options

[Req]

[hyzmarca]

That was my impression. When the city is below sea level you plan for it to be flooded anything else is stupid. Perhaps the people at FEMA didn't pay enough attention in physics class to understand the relationship between water and gravity.

[Req]

The really amazing thing to me is that this wholly inadequate response is what we see after Katrina made landfall in a weaker state than expected. It was forecast to still be potentially at Category 5 when it hit, if I remember right; it weakened to Category 4 before coming ashore.

Could it have been worse? I don't know enough, I'm the wrong kind of scientist for that. I assume the flooding right now is pretty close to a worst-case scenario, and more damage would only increase the initial death toll and time for repairs. But does anyone actually know?

[Sabosect]

To be honest, a lot of this is a simple case of us not bothering to use common sense. We knew the hurricane was going to be a disaster. What should we have done? Started organizing everyone we can, including military, to go in there. Started getting supplies ready. Started sending NO police procedures to follow.

What did we do? Prepare a few supplies, hoped the NOPD and coast guard can handle it, and sat back. Naturally, the NOPD is pretty much gone at this point (those that haven't quit have no leadership), the coast guard has proven they can't even begin to handle the situation, and our own federal relief agency was forced to tuck tail and run. For a nation so known for running in to provide aid and which has seen many such situations and has the resources we have, we royally fucked up. We managed to do everything wrong.

So, yeah, I am going to defend my advice that we get the American agencies out of there. By all evidence, we're the last people who should be doing this. We've done enough damage and our continued presense is only doing more and contributing to the continued erosion of anything resembling society in New Orleans.

As for those other nations offering help: Let them. Let them do it. We've helped them plenty of times. If they want to return to favor, why not? Besides, we can use this to help rebuild some of the old political connections. The idea of the U.S. being humble enough to accept aid just this once would soothe over most of the ruffled feathers and probably get those nations harping about Iraq off our backs.

[blakkie]

[ambidextrous]

[ShadowDragon8685]

Sabosect: I agree completely. This is a perfect case of the Bush administration being tossed a ball that an idiot could have prepared for, and he dropped it.

This wasen't "Think fast!" followed by a medicine ball from a guy the size of Ah-nold.

This was more like "Heads up, it's coming to you, dog!" followed by being lightly chucked into the air in a shallow arc.


Yeah, this has been completely mismanaged. If England, France, Austraila, et al, and especially Canada and Mexico because they're so fucking close, goddamnit, want to help, then get them in there.

Fucking hell, is Bush so prideful he's going to let Americans die in their own shit before he'll let foreign aid troops set foot on American soil?

[Shadow]

You know its real funny. If the Fed. Govt. tried to go into NO and tell them that there levies were below standard and they would have to fix them... NO would whine and cry about the Feds mandating local policies. How dare they interfere in the sovereignty of a state. After all, its not like the US has ever experienced MULTIPLE disasters of this magnitude in one city.

Of course now that it has happened its all the Fed Govt. fault for not mandating safety on the levies right? Heaven forbid it isn't the Citys fault for not having proper disaster relief and management planning. Or the people who live in the city for not doing everything they could to get the hell out of the way of the storm. Or the criminals fault for not being productive members of society as opposed to the crap you rub of your shoes.

No it's all GW's fault. Grow a brain.

[Req]

[Shadow]

No your absolutely right. Whos fault it is is unimportant. Right now just fixing it is what matters. For what ever reason everything that goes wrong in this country is the presidents direct and personal fault, and everything that goes right has nothing to do with him.

[Sabosect]

Actually, I agree: It's not all Bush's fault. If anything, his self-serving speeches are just a minor annoyance.

In this particular case, it's everyone's fault. It's the city for not preparing properly, the state for knowing the levies wouldn't hold up and doing nothing, the coast guard's for going into a situation anybody with the tactical sense given to a rat can see they couldn't handle, the NOPD's for failing to properly account for disaster possibilities and then adding to it by officers effectively abandoning the city or looting it after their command structure failed, FEMA's for rushing into a situation that was obviously far from being controlled, the Marines' for their only attempting control in certain areas and dropping in supplies they know are easily destroyed by falls in such a way that effectively prevents the survivors from catching them in time, and a whole bunch of others.

So, yeah, at this point I honestly doubt that American forces are going to help the situation. We've already proven to most of those still in the city that we either can't or think of them as less than animals. If it wasn't for animal-like desperation, at this point I suspect they would organize and rush a border. And with how many people they have, any marines stupid enough to try to stop them would deserve the violence and death they get as a reply. And once containment is lost, may whatever deity or deities you worship have mercy on Louisiana.

[Shadow]

Right. Keep thinking that way.

Then read this.

Convention center Rescue

In the above article Bush blasts the Federal response pretty handidly.

[Fortune]

[Blacken]

[Sabosect]

[Shadow]

You mean like the Federal troops and supplies that are on the way? What exactly are the Feds supposed to do? They can't step in till the State asks for help, that happened on Tuesday, troops and supplies are in the area, hell the Army Core of Engineers were working on the levies within hours of them breaking. i am sure the govt could do more, was slow in some response, but this is by no means, THEIR FAULT. Its the state and local authorities fault for not having proper disaster preparedness.

You live in a hurricane zone, below sea level, surrounded by water, you should plan for the occasional flood.

[Req]

Come on, people. This disaster, of all things, should not turn into a liberals vs conservatives finger-pointing thing. Leave that game for later.

Sure I'm dissatisfied with Dubya's speechmaking, and the throwing press conferences rather than dealing with the disaster from FEMA, and the shamless political pork involving the Army Corps of Engineers - but EVERYONE screwed up. EVERYONE. Turning this into a political game misses that point.

THOUSANDS ARE DEAD OR DYING. I don't care about the political angle at this point, and neither should you.

edit - removed quote. don't mean to specifically aim at any one poster, here.

[Athenor]

Look, we all knew the levee's wouldn't hold.

What they were hoping was for one of two things to happen: Either the hurricane would hit NO head-on, causing the winds to be coming from the South/west.. Or, OTOH, they were hoping it would hit far to the East, so that the winds coming from the North would be weaker.

The storm took a jog East, and everyone was confident that it had gone east enough that the storm surge wouldn't destroy the levee's. And that's exactly what happened .The first night, the pumps were working, the supplies were good, the worst seemed to pass.

Then, Tuesday morning, something snapped. According to the Army Core of Engineers, it happened in a place they had recently reinforced -- IE a place that wasn't as hardened as older concrete. The problem got worse, and all Tuesday we saw the city get flooded. I don't know why the pumps stopped, but they were probably shut down to save their backup generator life for after the levee's get rebuilt.

By Wedesday, the first heavy relocation efforts were starting, but the rampant violence was causing that to come to a screeching halt. This was a major breakdown in communication and supply lines, as this would've been the time to get supplies in there. But for some reason, the first-responders didn't come.

Fast forward to today. For whatever reason, the resources that were supposed to be supplied over the last two days are now flooding in. My guess is they were held up for the protection of numbers, and the national guard... But they are coming in. And furthermore, there are reports that people aren't being allowed on the busses if they are rushed, or in any way threatened -- the people of NO are dictating their fate, as it were.

I did see an encouraging sight today. FOX news was broadcasting video of 2 Coast Guard helis working just about a mile or two from the superdome. They were still finding people in houses, trapped, and rescuing them (they are being taken to the airport, where the true buslines are out of town, and where the major airline carriers are donating planes for the evacuation). While I don't believe the city will be empty by tomorrow like predicted, I do think great strides are being made in doing so.

The next phase is going to be the "make it or break it" one. Obviously N.O. is trashed for the forseeable future -- that much water damage, it's gotta be bulldozed. The true test, first, is to make sure these relocation and support centers don't become havens for disease and refuse, like the superdome did. IMHO, the relocated citizens could start earning money and getting back on their feet by being employed as janitors and the like for the rescue centers. But beyond that, all the states surrounding the gulf coast are looking at absorbing this influx of people until about Christmas, and then rebuilding from scratch the whole region after that.

That is where our concern should be now. All placing blame does is hurt the current focus. We'll have years.. Nae.. DECADES to analyze this storm, learn what we did wrong. Let's not rip ourselves apart in the time of our country's greatest need.

[Blacken]

Not just rebuilding--to hell with that. New Orleans needs to be moved fifteen miles up the river, or there need to be a good twenty feet of fill packed down on top of what's already there.

Otherwise, we'll be doing it again in a couple of decades.

[Req]

[Sabosect]

Also, we need to reinforce the levies. Maybe add a tiered levie system in case this happens again. One levy breaks, you get a small portion flooded and the next levy taking over the job.

As for the federal troops: Next time, prepare them in advance. I'd rather we waste the tax dollars preparing the military for a natural disaster that doesn't happen twice a year than have to face the chaos and problems this caused.

[blakkie]

[hyzmarca]

[Serbitar]

The big dome thing of the size of a city is called "arcology"

[Herald of Verjig...]

Arcology, relocate city, great ideas. Now, mix them. Instead of moving New Orleans inland, rebuilding it where it is, or building an arcology where it is, lets outdo the Japanese with the design of Newer Orleans half a mile out into the Gulf.