Spirits of Man - better than sustaining focus?, Minmaxers, start your engines Options

[Spookymonster]

At character creation, a Force 2 sustaining focus for health spells costs 6 BP: 4BP for the 20,000 :nuyen: , and another 2BP for bonding. If you were to cast Increase Reflexes into this focus, the best you could hope to achieve is the threshold(2) effect (+1 Init, +1 Init Phase). This focus could only be use on one person at a time.

For the same cost, a Force 6 (assuming a maxed-out magician) can start with a bound Force 6 Spirit of Man with 6 services due. This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells, say Increase Reflexes and Armor. At any time, the controlling magician can use a service to have the spirit cast a Force 4 Increase Reflexes on any target, with a good chance of achieving maximum results (+3 Init, +3 Init Phase). The controller can use additional services to repeat this action (or cast another innate spell), but with penalties for sustaining multiple spells obviously.

This service does not diminish the sustaining spirit as would Spell Binding, so spirits shouldn't be as reluctant to do it. Likewise, there is no limitation to the spell chosen as the innate spell, unlike Spell Binding spells (i.e., spirits can only bind spells of a specific class).

[hahnsoo]

Eventually, you'd run out of services, as the spirit only provides the Innate Spell service until sunrise or sunset (as the "Use a power" service is the same as an unbound spirit).

[Spookymonster]

It could be argued that the sunrise/sunset condition only applies to unbound spirits -

[hobgoblin]

but what about having a glitch or a critical glitch?

[Aku]

could the above scenario just end the unbound ACTION, while the spirit actually stays?

[Spookymonster]

[tisoz]

The continual use of a power by a bound spirit is not mentioned in the rules. However, Remote service by bound and unbound spirits are both covered and the bound spirit does not quit performing the service at sunrise/sunset, nor does it nullify any services still owed. I would rule the continual use of a power to follow the same pattern.

If that doesn't work for you, have the spirit cast and sustain the spell as a remote service and follow the RAW. For the mentioned spell, it requires touch range, and it is obvious from the RAW that touch does not need to be maintained to sustain the spell.

This opens up a whole 'nother can o' worms. Have the magician prepare to go out on the run which is planned to last less than the entire night. He can summon a spirit have it cast a spell or spells (RAW say a set of tasks counts) and sustain it as a remote service. Spirits on remote service no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits, so the magician can repeat the process to his hearts content. I'd suggest casting some improved Attribute spells first to make resisting drain a given, then the magician can summon some spirits greater than his magic rating and hardly worry about taking physical drain.

Imagine a starting shaman summoning about a Force 10 spirit, have it cast Improved Attribute Willpower, Improved Attribute Charisma, and Analyze Device. The shaman should wind up with about 10 extra dice for every test that involves him using a device or equipment (foci are equipment right? So are guns, so are...) with maximun Willpower and maximum Charisma.

I think I would have a bound spirit handy with a Heal Spell, too and ordered to overcast if needed.

Did anyone mention the part about how the spirit is probably a better spellslinger, too? Since they are rolling Magic (=Force) + Skill (=Force) and have Edge (=Force). A starting magician could summon a couple easier to resist drain spirits, have them cast/sustain his Increase Attributes that cover drain, then start summoning the big boys.

[Dranem]

And the first Astral Barrier you come across could totally fubar the run.

I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't check the mechanics of it jives, but so far it sounds plausible... summoning a force 10 spirit and keeping it would probably cost some serious conjuring material costs.. outside of that...

One thing to remember, the Foci enhances the spell or helps resist drain, you still use your magic rating and spellcasting to get the attribute fired up to begin with. And you can even further reduce drain by using Fetishes on the spell.

[Shrike30]

This method of sustaining spells is plausible, yes... but it's got the added difficulty of requiring you to drag a spirit along, and it's *expensive* when you consider the average cost of a service from a bound spirit (Force x 500 :nuyen: / average net successes). I think i'll stick with a sustaining focus, thanks.

[tisoz]

summoning a force 10 spirit and keeping it would probably cost some serious conjuring material costs..

Summoning doesn't cost any ritual materials, only binding.

it's got the added difficulty of requiring you to drag a spirit along, and it's *expensive* when you consider the average cost of a service from a bound spirit (Force x 500  / average net successes).

You don't bring the spirit along, you put it on remote service and leave/send it on its way. Ditto the cost of summoning requiring no materials, only binding.

the Foci enhances the spell or helps resist drain, you still use your magic rating and spellcasting to get the attribute fired up to begin with. And you can even further reduce drain by using Fetishes on the spell.

The magician is casting no spells, the spirit of man is casting them, probably better than the magician could. The magician only needs Spellcasting at chargen to be able to get spells (to assign to the spirit.)

The only Force 10 or so spirit you really need is for the spells that require a lot of Force to allow a lot of hits, like the Analyze Device spell. It has a threshold of 4 for a lot of devices. Although a threshold of 1 to get some extra dice for a Staff (or Staff weapon Focus) is pretty sweet.

And the first Astral Barrier you come across could totally fubar the run.

The first astral barrier you come across fubars most runs.

[Brahm]

This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

[TinkerGnome]

[Brahm]

Fair enough TinkerGnome, I'll drop the very. ;) I do agree it is a clean way to help curb the remote service exploiting without tossing up wards everywhere.

[Azralon]

[tisoz]

This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells

Or can it? There's nothing that says (or does not say) you can load up multiple optional powers of the same type into the same spirit.

It states the spirit gets assigned a spell for every 3 points of Force. F3 gets 1, F6 gets 2, F9 gets 3...

This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

A good idea is to count your remote unbound spirits on your bound spirit list. Someone came up with the interpretation that that was actually the case, that all remote spirits bound and unbound count against that maximum. Seemed to me a dubious reading of the RAW, but likely a good idea anyway.

That means that the above sidebar then also helps out with unbound spirits.

So take a somewhat unclear rule to class an unbound spirit on remote service as bound , so that a rule clearly intended for bound spirits can be invoked, so that a GM can invoke an optional modifier rule that has nothing to do with when the modifier is even suggested to be invoked. Only that it is a way for a GM to exert control.

Only if you are permanently dual natured, rely heavily on a sustaining Foci, or have a spell Quickened on yourself, and aren't paying attention to the astral and have no way to fake yourself across.

So dismiss the spirits, cross the ward, and resummon the spirits sending them back to their happy place on remote service, only let the last spirit hang around if it still owes a service and let it slide itself and the spell through the next ward before being sent on remote service as the process repeats itself.

This is no more silly than having to recast spells into foci, and surely better than casting and sustaining them yourself.

Btw, how do you now get through a ward without disturbing it? A page refwerence will suffice. Never mind, I found it.

Getting through the astral barrier is one reason that Mondo Analyze Device spell comes in handy. Say your Force 1 or 2 power focus is made of something natural, like a piece of amber or quartz. The rules for getting through the barrier on page 186 say it is a Magic test, which allows the use of the focus. The focus is a device or piece of equipment, so your Analyze Device spell dice modifier also kicks in for around 10 or more dice. You should generate enough net hits to get yourself plus all your spells through intact. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Actually, the barrier itself is a device, so the Analyze Device spell should be able to apply a bonus when trying to manipulate it. Since it gets to resist, there should be no hits wasted on threshold.

This post has been edited by tisoz: Jun 19 2022, 08:57 AM

[FrankTrollman]

Actually, that was a totally dubious ruling, in that page 178 explicitly states that Unbound spirits don't count against your limit.

[Brahm]

[Brahm]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

If you're really worried about a spirit of man maintaining an increase reflexes spell for any length of time, just point at:

[Azralon]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

I think he basically just gave it the optional power "innate spell" twice - once for one spell, once for the other.

[Azralon]

Oh, and if you want to use spirits instead of sustaining foci:

Whip up a Spirit of Man at Force 6 and "teach" it your Increase Reflexes spell. Have it cast that spell at Force 4 on you until it gets 4 hits (if it doesn't manage that before you run out of services, make a new one).

At that point tell your buff buddy that he's on remote duty now while sustaining the spell. He can go quietly play in his room until sunrise/sunset, thanks much.

He's at -2 to all tests while sustaining the spell, so make sure he doesn't operate any heavy machinery.

[Azralon]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Well, with the exception of Innate Spell, are there any powers that a spirit would benefit from taking multiple times?

(And the remote service loophole would get caught by my ruling as well)

[tisoz]