At character creation, a Force 2 sustaining focus for health spells costs 6 BP: 4BP for the 20,000 , and another 2BP for bonding. If you were to cast Increase Reflexes into this focus, the best you could hope to achieve is the threshold(2) effect (+1 Init, +1 Init Phase). This focus could only be use on one person at a time.

For the same cost, a Force 6 (assuming a maxed-out magician) can start with a bound Force 6 Spirit of Man with 6 services due. This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells, say Increase Reflexes and Armor. At any time, the controlling magician can use a service to have the spirit cast a Force 4 Increase Reflexes on any target, with a good chance of achieving maximum results (+3 Init, +3 Init Phase). The controller can use additional services to repeat this action (or cast another innate spell), but with penalties for sustaining multiple spells obviously.

This service does not diminish the sustaining spirit as would Spell Binding, so spirits shouldn't be as reluctant to do it. Likewise, there is no limitation to the spell chosen as the innate spell, unlike Spell Binding spells (i.e., spirits can only bind spells of a specific class).

Eventually, you'd run out of services, as the spirit only provides the Innate Spell service until sunrise or sunset (as the "Use a power" service is the same as an unbound spirit).

It could be argued that the sunrise/sunset condition only applies to unbound spirits -

but what about having a glitch or a critical glitch?

could the above scenario just end the unbound ACTION, while the spirit actually stays?

The continual use of a power by a bound spirit is not mentioned in the rules. However, Remote service by bound and unbound spirits are both covered and the bound spirit does not quit performing the service at sunrise/sunset, nor does it nullify any services still owed. I would rule the continual use of a power to follow the same pattern.

If that doesn't work for you, have the spirit cast and sustain the spell as a remote service and follow the RAW. For the mentioned spell, it requires touch range, and it is obvious from the RAW that touch does not need to be maintained to sustain the spell.

This opens up a whole 'nother can o' worms. Have the magician prepare to go out on the run which is planned to last less than the entire night. He can summon a spirit have it cast a spell or spells (RAW say a set of tasks counts) and sustain it as a remote service. Spirits on remote service no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits, so the magician can repeat the process to his hearts content. I'd suggest casting some improved Attribute spells first to make resisting drain a given, then the magician can summon some spirits greater than his magic rating and hardly worry about taking physical drain.

Imagine a starting shaman summoning about a Force 10 spirit, have it cast Improved Attribute Willpower, Improved Attribute Charisma, and Analyze Device. The shaman should wind up with about 10 extra dice for every test that involves him using a device or equipment (foci are equipment right? So are guns, so are...) with maximun Willpower and maximum Charisma.

I think I would have a bound spirit handy with a Heal Spell, too and ordered to overcast if needed.

Did anyone mention the part about how the spirit is probably a better spellslinger, too? Since they are rolling Magic (=Force) + Skill (=Force) and have Edge (=Force). A starting magician could summon a couple easier to resist drain spirits, have them cast/sustain his Increase Attributes that cover drain, then start summoning the big boys.

And the first Astral Barrier you come across could totally fubar the run.

I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't check the mechanics of it jives, but so far it sounds plausible... summoning a force 10 spirit and keeping it would probably cost some serious conjuring material costs.. outside of that...

One thing to remember, the Foci enhances the spell or helps resist drain, you still use your magic rating and spellcasting to get the attribute fired up to begin with. And you can even further reduce drain by using Fetishes on the spell.

This method of sustaining spells is plausible, yes... but it's got the added difficulty of requiring you to drag a spirit along, and it's *expensive* when you consider the average cost of a service from a bound spirit (Force x 500 / average net successes). I think i'll stick with a sustaining focus, thanks.

Summoning doesn't cost any ritual materials, only binding.

You don't bring the spirit along, you put it on remote service and leave/send it on its way. Ditto the cost of summoning requiring no materials, only binding.

The magician is casting no spells, the spirit of man is casting them, probably better than the magician could. The magician only needs Spellcasting at chargen to be able to get spells (to assign to the spirit.)

The only Force 10 or so spirit you really need is for the spells that require a lot of Force to allow a lot of hits, like the Analyze Device spell. It has a threshold of 4 for a lot of devices. Although a threshold of 1 to get some extra dice for a Staff (or Staff weapon Focus) is pretty sweet.

The first astral barrier you come across fubars most runs.

This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

Fair enough TinkerGnome, I'll drop the very. I do agree it is a clean way to help curb the remote service exploiting without tossing up wards everywhere.

It states the spirit gets assigned a spell for every 3 points of Force. F3 gets 1, F6 gets 2, F9 gets 3...


And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one.



So take a somewhat unclear rule to class an unbound spirit on remote service as bound , so that a rule clearly intended for bound spirits can be invoked, so that a GM can invoke an optional modifier rule that has nothing to do with when the modifier is even suggested to be invoked. Only that it is a way for a GM to exert control.



So dismiss the spirits, cross the ward, and resummon the spirits sending them back to their happy place on remote service, only let the last spirit hang around if it still owes a service and let it slide itself and the spell through the next ward before being sent on remote service as the process repeats itself.

This is no more silly than having to recast spells into foci, and surely better than casting and sustaining them yourself.

Btw, how do you now get through a ward without disturbing it? A page refwerence will suffice. Never mind, I found it.

Getting through the astral barrier is one reason that Mondo Analyze Device spell comes in handy. Say your Force 1 or 2 power focus is made of something natural, like a piece of amber or quartz. The rules for getting through the barrier on page 186 say it is a Magic test, which allows the use of the focus. The focus is a device or piece of equipment, so your Analyze Device spell dice modifier also kicks in for around 10 or more dice. You should generate enough net hits to get yourself plus all your spells through intact.

Actually, the barrier itself is a device, so the Analyze Device spell should be able to apply a bonus when trying to manipulate it. Since it gets to resist, there should be no hits wasted on threshold.

Actually, that was a totally dubious ruling, in that page 178 explicitly states that Unbound spirits don't count against your limit.

If you're really worried about a spirit of man maintaining an increase reflexes spell for any length of time, just point at:

I think he basically just gave it the optional power "innate spell" twice - once for one spell, once for the other.

Oh, and if you want to use spirits instead of sustaining foci:

Whip up a Spirit of Man at Force 6 and "teach" it your Increase Reflexes spell. Have it cast that spell at Force 4 on you until it gets 4 hits (if it doesn't manage that before you run out of services, make a new one).

At that point tell your buff buddy that he's on remote duty now while sustaining the spell. He can go quietly play in his room until sunrise/sunset, thanks much.

He's at -2 to all tests while sustaining the spell, so make sure he doesn't operate any heavy machinery.

Well, with the exception of Innate Spell, are there any powers that a spirit would benefit from taking multiple times?

(And the remote service loophole would get caught by my ruling as well)

Well, yes...I admit it's pretty shaky - for instance I wouldn't insist on that interpretation for healing spells. In fact, in most cases, I wouldn't use it at all

But it's an interesting way of countering players who start abusing the innate spell power. While it's an interesting, quirky power, it should not be used to get your spellcasting done by using summoning instead.

Most powers are continual-use powers.

Most spells are cast as discreet instances.

Innate Spell (with a sustained spell) has the problem of bridging the two groups.


Unless you're saying that a spirit would be able to continually use, say, Slay Human at up to twice its force from sunrise to sunset as a single power use.

There's definitely room for player-GM negotiation on this particular power.
That's the point I've been arguing. As long as it's not being abused, leave it in the players hands - once it is, however...

EDIT: Yep, that's why I should refresh before posting...

Uh...Frank...we don't really disagree here...

My (admittedly) rather snarky responses have primarily been aimed at people who would try to abuse the one power - "attack my enemies" (option 1) is well and good for a single close-combat situation, but the spirit would not neccessarily use the innate spell power to do it (GM's discretion).

OTOH, consider that a bound spirit can maintain someone elses spell for (force) days, at which point the spirit is destroyed vs. "cast and maintain this spell on me forever" which would cost a total of 1 service from a bound spirit, and per the RAW, would actually last until the either spell or spirit was disrupted in some manner. Once the GM decides to restore some semblance of balance to his game, that character is probably as good as dead.

Better to negotiate a solution everyone is reasonably OK with, as soon as it appears to potentially be a problem.

Hm. I'm taking this point to wonder whether or not you could take a free spirit as a contact at, like, Loyalty 6. Get a sort of Ally Spirit situation going on without any of the immediate benefits, like extra metamagic and so forth.

I kind of toyed around with that idea for a bit in a campaign inspired by Mad Max and NyQuil. I'm just wondering if you treat a spirit contact well if they'd actually let themselves be bound. I don't know what exactly would entail keeping your spirit buddy happy, but it'd be kinda interesting.

The explanation of what a loyalty 6 contact would do for you is pretty impressive, but obviously this needs to be a situation where there's some give and take.

You could probably houserule a situation where the spirit remains unbound, but will perform "bound spirit" services as favors.

Aya. I figure that you just wouldn't metaphysically knock on the spirit's door and ask it to do something for you in the middle of the night.

I'm having a little bit of a brain fart right here, but I could see you doing things for your spirit in exchange for a consentual bind. Like getting it a domain to live in. Say, cleaning all the homeless people and gangers out of a public park.

Heck, I don't know what spirits want.