Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Spirits of Man - better than sustaining focus?
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Spookymonster
At character creation, a Force 2 sustaining focus for health spells costs 6 BP: 4BP for the 20,000 nuyen.gif , and another 2BP for bonding. If you were to cast Increase Reflexes into this focus, the best you could hope to achieve is the threshold(2) effect (+1 Init, +1 Init Phase). This focus could only be use on one person at a time.

For the same cost, a Force 6 (assuming a maxed-out magician) can start with a bound Force 6 Spirit of Man with 6 services due. This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells, say Increase Reflexes and Armor. At any time, the controlling magician can use a service to have the spirit cast a Force 4 Increase Reflexes on any target, with a good chance of achieving maximum results (+3 Init, +3 Init Phase). The controller can use additional services to repeat this action (or cast another innate spell), but with penalties for sustaining multiple spells obviously.

This service does not diminish the sustaining spirit as would Spell Binding, so spirits shouldn't be as reluctant to do it. Likewise, there is no limitation to the spell chosen as the innate spell, unlike Spell Binding spells (i.e., spirits can only bind spells of a specific class).
hahnsoo
Eventually, you'd run out of services, as the spirit only provides the Innate Spell service until sunrise or sunset (as the "Use a power" service is the same as an unbound spirit).
Spookymonster
It could be argued that the sunrise/sunset condition only applies to unbound spirits -

QUOTE (p.178 @ Bound Spirit Services, Remote Services)
A bound spiritís terms of service do not expire at sunrise or sunset, however, so the spirit can continue on for a considerable time.


If the surise/sunset rule applied to all spirits performing unbound services, spirit combat would get pretty interesting at dawn:
6:00:00 - 2 spirits (one bound, one unbound) are locked in combat while their controllers watch
6:00:04 - both spirits call it a day and return home
6:00:07 - the unbound controller summons up a new spirit, while the bound controller recalls his spirit, burns another service, and sends it after the unbound controller
6:00:10 - unbound controller (assuming he's still alive) uses a service to get his spirit to defend him

Regardless, re-binding the spirit only takes 6 hours and 3000 nuyen.gif . Re-binds tend to result in more services than the initial bind, and there's no fear of losing control of the spirit if the drain knocks you out.
hobgoblin
but what about having a glitch or a critical glitch?
Aku
could the above scenario just end the unbound ACTION, while the spirit actually stays?
Spookymonster
QUOTE (Aku)
could the above scenario just end the unbound ACTION, while the spirit actually stays?

No. The book expressly states that the service ends and the spirit departs for the deep astral.
tisoz
The continual use of a power by a bound spirit is not mentioned in the rules. However, Remote service by bound and unbound spirits are both covered and the bound spirit does not quit performing the service at sunrise/sunset, nor does it nullify any services still owed. I would rule the continual use of a power to follow the same pattern.

If that doesn't work for you, have the spirit cast and sustain the spell as a remote service and follow the RAW. For the mentioned spell, it requires touch range, and it is obvious from the RAW that touch does not need to be maintained to sustain the spell.

This opens up a whole 'nother can o' worms. Have the magician prepare to go out on the run which is planned to last less than the entire night. He can summon a spirit have it cast a spell or spells (RAW say a set of tasks counts) and sustain it as a remote service. Spirits on remote service no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits, so the magician can repeat the process to his hearts content. I'd suggest casting some improved Attribute spells first to make resisting drain a given, then the magician can summon some spirits greater than his magic rating and hardly worry about taking physical drain.

Imagine a starting shaman summoning about a Force 10 spirit, have it cast Improved Attribute Willpower, Improved Attribute Charisma, and Analyze Device. The shaman should wind up with about 10 extra dice for every test that involves him using a device or equipment (foci are equipment right? So are guns, so are...) with maximun Willpower and maximum Charisma.

I think I would have a bound spirit handy with a Heal Spell, too and ordered to overcast if needed.

Did anyone mention the part about how the spirit is probably a better spellslinger, too? Since they are rolling Magic (=Force) + Skill (=Force) and have Edge (=Force). A starting magician could summon a couple easier to resist drain spirits, have them cast/sustain his Increase Attributes that cover drain, then start summoning the big boys.
Dranem
And the first Astral Barrier you come across could totally fubar the run.

I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't check the mechanics of it jives, but so far it sounds plausible... summoning a force 10 spirit and keeping it would probably cost some serious conjuring material costs.. outside of that...

One thing to remember, the Foci enhances the spell or helps resist drain, you still use your magic rating and spellcasting to get the attribute fired up to begin with. And you can even further reduce drain by using Fetishes on the spell.
Shrike30
This method of sustaining spells is plausible, yes... but it's got the added difficulty of requiring you to drag a spirit along, and it's *expensive* when you consider the average cost of a service from a bound spirit (Force x 500 nuyen.gif / average net successes). I think i'll stick with a sustaining focus, thanks.
tisoz
QUOTE
summoning a force 10 spirit and keeping it would probably cost some serious conjuring material costs..

Summoning doesn't cost any ritual materials, only binding.
QUOTE
it's got the added difficulty of requiring you to drag a spirit along, and it's *expensive* when you consider the average cost of a service from a bound spirit (Force x 500† / average net successes).

You don't bring the spirit along, you put it on remote service and leave/send it on its way. Ditto the cost of summoning requiring no materials, only binding.
QUOTE
the Foci enhances the spell or helps resist drain, you still use your magic rating and spellcasting to get the attribute fired up to begin with. And you can even further reduce drain by using Fetishes on the spell.

The magician is casting no spells, the spirit of man is casting them, probably better than the magician could. The magician only needs Spellcasting at chargen to be able to get spells (to assign to the spirit.)

The only Force 10 or so spirit you really need is for the spells that require a lot of Force to allow a lot of hits, like the Analyze Device spell. It has a threshold of 4 for a lot of devices. Although a threshold of 1 to get some extra dice for a Staff (or Staff weapon Focus) is pretty sweet.
QUOTE
And the first Astral Barrier you come across could totally fubar the run.

The first astral barrier you come across fubars most runs.
Brahm
This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

QUOTE (Sidebar @ page 190)
If the gamemaster chooses, the
strain of controlling a bound spirit that is on
hand or actively performing a service (in other
words, not on standby), can impose a Ė2 dice
pool modifi er to all tests, similar to sustaining
a spell.


For unbound wards help. Notice that wards also helps curtail the spirit power use at a distance. A good idea is to count your remote unbound spirits on your bound spirit list. Someone came up with the interpretation that that was actually the case, that all remote spirits bound and unbound count against that maximum. Seemed to me a dubious reading of the RAW, but likely a good idea anyway.

That means that the above sidebar then also helps out with unbound spirits.


QUOTE
The first astral barrier you come across fubars most runs.


Only if you are permanently dual natured, rely heavily on a sustaining Foci, or have a spell Quickened on yourself, and aren't paying attention to the astral and have no way to fake yourself across.

Since there aren't any really powerful low Force spells anymore all the spells have drain that is much more inline with Force. You need a fairly substantial sustaining foci, certainly something past character generation, before it isn't that big a deal to just drop and recast on the other side of the ward.

Quickening a spell on you person without being able to fake it past a ward is likely one of those a bad ideas, although RAW does explain how or even if you can fake out a ward to bypass it and whether than needs Masking, Flexibile Signature, or both to get you and your Quickened spell through. That is going to require either a GM ruling, Street Magic, or a clarification from Fanpro. So right now Quickening a spell on yourself is just generally a bad idea if your world has a lot of wards and the GM hasn't straighted how to get them across barriers.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Brahm)
Seemed to me a very dubious reading of the RAW, but likely a good idea anyway.

It wasn't that dubious of a reading.

QUOTE
A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute. Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total.


When I first read it, I took it to mean that unbound spirits on remote service counted toward the bound spirit limit (since I had already read the bits about how unbound spirits on remote service didn't count anymore). I don't think that's how it's supposed to be read, but you have to admit that the second sentence could use a word or two to clarify that.

I'll probably end up imposing that limitation if I ever have a problem with it.
Brahm
Fair enough TinkerGnome, I'll drop the very. wink.gif I do agree it is a clean way to help curb the remote service exploiting without tossing up wards everywhere.
Azralon
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells

Or can it? There's nothing that says (or does not say) you can load up multiple optional powers of the same type into the same spirit.

Obviously there's no use in taking Fear more than once. The question remains open if the RAW intended for the Innate Spell power to occupy multiple "slots" in the spirit's power list.

Me, I rule that a spirit can have Innate Spell only once since spirits need a little nerfing in any case.
tisoz
QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 7 2006, 09:15 AM)
QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Sep 3 2005, 11:02 PM)
This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells

Or can it? There's nothing that says (or does not say) you can load up multiple optional powers of the same type into the same spirit.

It states the spirit gets assigned a spell for every 3 points of Force. F3 gets 1, F6 gets 2, F9 gets 3...

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 08:51 AM)
This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. wink.gif

QUOTE
A good idea is to count your remote unbound spirits on your bound spirit list. Someone came up with the interpretation that that was actually the case, that all remote spirits bound and unbound count against that maximum. Seemed to me a dubious reading of the RAW, but likely a good idea anyway.

That means that the above sidebar then also helps out with unbound spirits.


So take a somewhat unclear rule to class an unbound spirit on remote service as bound , so that a rule clearly intended for bound spirits can be invoked, so that a GM can invoke an optional modifier rule that has nothing to do with when the modifier is even suggested to be invoked. Only that it is a way for a GM to exert control.

QUOTE
Only if you are permanently dual natured, rely heavily on a sustaining Foci, or have a spell Quickened on yourself, and aren't paying attention to the astral and have no way to fake yourself across.


So dismiss the spirits, cross the ward, and resummon the spirits sending them back to their happy place on remote service, only let the last spirit hang around if it still owes a service and let it slide itself and the spell through the next ward before being sent on remote service as the process repeats itself.

This is no more silly than having to recast spells into foci, and surely better than casting and sustaining them yourself.

Btw, how do you now get through a ward without disturbing it? A page refwerence will suffice. Never mind, I found it.

Getting through the astral barrier is one reason that Mondo Analyze Device spell comes in handy. Say your Force 1 or 2 power focus is made of something natural, like a piece of amber or quartz. The rules for getting through the barrier on page 186 say it is a Magic test, which allows the use of the focus. The focus is a device or piece of equipment, so your Analyze Device spell dice modifier also kicks in for around 10 or more dice. You should generate enough net hits to get yourself plus all your spells through intact. nyahnyah.gif

Actually, the barrier itself is a device, so the Analyze Device spell should be able to apply a bonus when trying to manipulate it. Since it gets to resist, there should be no hits wasted on threshold.
FrankTrollman
Actually, that was a totally dubious ruling, in that page 178 explicitly states that Unbound spirits don't count against your limit.

QUOTE
Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits.


However, when I sent some of the "uses" for that rule to the game designers (thousands of spirits attacking a location by lunchtime for instance), the choking sounds were practically audible over an internet connection. I would say that an errata to page 178 and 179 is extremely likely in the short term. Expect spirits on Remote Service to continue to apply to their normal caps on controlled spirits until released.
wink.gif

---

In other notes: Spirits aren't going to spend Edge on your behalf when casting buff spells on you. And a spirit can't recover drain while it is sustaining a spell. So our Force 10 spirit with 3 owed services (how are you getting 3 services on a Force 10 spirit anyway?) could cast one buff spell with a 20 die pool. Then it's next spell is going to be cast with an 18 die or less pool as it may be drained at that point. Then the last spell is going to be cast with at most 16 dice.

Then your spirit can hang out in your house channel surfing while taking a -6 dice pool penalty on all actions (plus wound penalties) while you wander around with approximately a +6 bonus to two things and a +5 bonus to another.

And of course, you have to deal with the drain of a Force 10 spirit, which averages 6.6P, but could be as much as 12P within a single standard deviation.

Since it is again highly likely that you're not supposed to be able to magically heal overcast drain, and you are quite likely to be hit with more drain than you can first aid off - you're looking at going into this adventure with some large bonuses, no usable spirit, and some physical damage. Personally, I'd rather just have a Force 7 Air Elemental go punch my enemies in the face.

-Frank
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 01:13 PM)
So take a somewhat unclear rule to class an unbound spirit on remote service as bound , so that a rule clearly intended for bound spirits can be invoked, so that a GM can invoke an optional modifier rule that has nothing to do with when the modifier is even suggested top be invoked.

Besides taking great issue with your assertion of nothing to do with, yup. Or lay down a bunch of wards. I prefer the former, although I prefer even more to play with players that would stop playing silly twink games when just nicely asked.


QUOTE
So dismiss the spirits, cross the ward, and resummon the spirits sending them back to their happy place on remote service


Is this bound or unbound? If bound you are really chewing through services there. If unbound sending to a happy place isn't really an option, by my interpretation. Although you are chewing through the services and are likely to need to Summon again anyway.


QUOTE
only let the last spirit hang around if it still owes a service and let it slide itself and the spell through the next ward before being sent on remote service as the process repeats itself.


RAW does not explicitly allow you to slide something through a ward unnoticed. It was probably suppose to be in Fake Signature and Mask, but it was never made clear if imitating someone else's aura does that and how it would be opposed by a ward. frown.gif That is where the GM ruling comes in. In any case the spirits aren't going to be doing it because they don't have the metamagic.


QUOTE
This is no more silly than having to recast spells into foci, and surely better than casting and sustaining them yourself.


Spells going into a sustaining foci are going to have minimal drain. Spell drain DV is usually less than Summoning, certainly less risky.


QUOTE
The focus is a device or piece of equipment, so your Analyze Device spell dice modifier also kicks in for around 10 or more dice.† You should generate enough net hits to get yourself plus all your spells through intact.† nyahnyah.gif

Actually, the barrier itself is an device, so the Analyze Device spell should be able to apply a bonus when trying to manipulate it.† Since it gets to resist, there should be no hits wasted on threshold.


ohplease.gif An excellent example of that surge of the gaming table, the rules lawyer ! Especially the later part which is reaching further than Oprah would waddle for a twinkie.


Post Script

Spirit of Man spell casting seems to me limited to the category the magicians tradition associates with the Spirit of Man, although the RAW certainly isn't clear on that.
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 01:13 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 08:51 AM)
This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. wink.gif

This is the one I was thinking of. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11699 It is curiously enough titled 'Spirit of Man'. wink.gif

It is a couple days over a month old though, so a little older than I thought. When using the Search feature you'll do well to set the time higher than the default 30 days. On this forum 180 days helps avoid the pre-release speculation, although it has now been a bit more than 6 months since GenCon so you might miss some early post-release threads.
Mr. Unpronounceable
If you're really worried about a spirit of man maintaining an increase reflexes spell for any length of time, just point at:

QUOTE (SR4 pg 179)

A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category. While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not suff er any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spiritís Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns. The magician can take over sustaining the spell as the spirit finishes this service (or at any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted or banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends.


so 1 service to cast the spell and 1 service for every (force, or fraction thereof) rounds.

The sustaining focus isn't looking too expensive at that point.
Azralon
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 7 2006, 09:15 AM)
QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Sep 3 2005, 11:02 PM)
This spirit can have 2 Innate Spells

Or can it? There's nothing that says (or does not say) you can load up multiple optional powers of the same type into the same spirit.

It states the spirit gets assigned a spell for every 3 points of Force. F3 gets 1, F6 gets 2, F9 gets 3...

Where does it say it gets multiple spells?

QUOTE (SR4 p294)
In addition to their standard Powers, each spirit also has one Optional Power for every 3 full points of Force. A magician selects what Optional Power(s) he wishes a summoned spirit to possess as he summons it. The Optional Powers possessed by a spirit may not be changed later.


QUOTE (SR4 p289)
A creature with the Innate Spell power has the instinctive ability to cast one spell. The critter must possess the Spellcasting skill in order to use the power effectively. Innate Spells cast by a critter are the same as those cast by magicians, and magicians can use Counterspelling against them as normal.
Mr. Unpronounceable
I think he basically just gave it the optional power "innate spell" twice - once for one spell, once for the other.
Azralon
Oh, and if you want to use spirits instead of sustaining foci:

Whip up a Spirit of Man at Force 6 and "teach" it your Increase Reflexes spell. Have it cast that spell at Force 4 on you until it gets 4 hits (if it doesn't manage that before you run out of services, make a new one).

At that point tell your buff buddy that he's on remote duty now while sustaining the spell. He can go quietly play in his room until sunrise/sunset, thanks much.

He's at -2 to all tests while sustaining the spell, so make sure he doesn't operate any heavy machinery.
Azralon
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
I think he basically just gave it the optional power "innate spell" twice - once for one spell, once for the other.

That's my initial grumbling, though. I don't see anything saying you can (or can't) give a spirit the same Optional Power multiple times.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Well, with the exception of Innate Spell, are there any powers that a spirit would benefit from taking multiple times?

(And the remote service loophole would get caught by my ruling as well)
tisoz
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Mar 7 2006, 12:35 PM)
Actually, that was a totally dubious ruling, in that page 178 explicitly states that Unbound spirits don't count against your limit.

QUOTE
Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits.


However, when I sent some of the "uses" for that rule to the game designers (thousands of spirits attacking a location by lunchtime for instance), the choking sounds were practically audible over an internet connection. I would say that an errata to page 178 and 179 is extremely likely in the short term. Expect spirits on Remote Service to continue to apply to their normal caps on controlled spirits until released.
wink.gif

Like there are not limiting factors to that scenario or defenses and repercussions, but thanks anyway for the support of this dubious quoted objection:
QUOTE (Brahm)
Besides taking great issue with your assertion of nothing to do with, yup.
QUOTE (Sidebar @ page [s)
190[/s] 178]Spirits also dislike being bound, as it forces them to a level of servitude they find distasteful, and so they sometimes fruitlessly struggle against the bond.

As a result, bound spirits can be an effort to handle, especially when more than one is on hand.† If the gamemaster chooses

Like I said, weaseling an unbound spirit into the bound classification just to invoke an option brought on by different circumstances. The spirit knows it is going to be done in a short time, not like one that is bound that starts this whole resentment, rebellion thing to begin (note As a result). Even then it supposedly happens only sometimes and can be and on hand and only then if the GM chooses.

Certainly a GM can choose to do whatever, whenever, but this truly seems like grasping for justification for invoking the modifier.

QUOTE
Spirits aren't going to spend Edge on your behalf when casting buff spells on you.

How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?

QUOTE
And a spirit can't recover drain while it is sustaining a spell.


I'd suggest using First Aid or a Heal Spell on them before departing for the run.

QUOTE
So our Force 10 spirit with 3 owed services (how are you getting 3 services on a Force 10 spirit anyway?)


I used Force 10 as an example. When I first ran this through, most of the spirits only needed to be Force 5 at most (and I didn't know what a particular magician would need) so multiple services seemed worth mentioning. Really, there is only one spirit I would need even close to Force 10 (Force 9 would still grant 3 spells, but F10 is a nice round number.)

QUOTE
could cast one buff spell with a 20 die pool. Then it's next spell is going to be cast with an 18 die or less pool as it may be drained at that point. Then the last spell is going to be cast with at most 16 dice.


Thanks for trying to make it sound silly, but each spirit need only cast one spell for this to work. Getting them to cast multiples at optimal levels is just an optimistic bonus.

QUOTE
Then your spirit can hang out in your house channel surfing while taking a -6 dice pool penalty on all actions (plus wound penalties) while you wander around with approximately a +6 bonus to two things and a +5 bonus to another.

Behind your own wards, inside your own lodge...

Again the -6 is probably due to optimistic thinking. Who says the spirit can't go to its happy place? Though behind those protective barriers is probably a good idea.

QUOTE
And of course, you have to deal with the drain of a Force 10 spirit, which averages 6.6P, but could be as much as 12P within a single standard deviation.


Again, facing this once to make that one big spell worthwhile, but Force could be a bit less and in most instances will be less. This is where having your Drain Attributes already buffed will be important. A human is looking at a dice pool of up to 24 (9C + 9W + 2Power Focus + 2Home Ground +2 Mentor Spirit), an Elf - 27, a dwarf - 25. Exceptional Attribute is probably beyond a starting character. But at Force 9 and below, drain is Stun and with the buffed Attributes alone, not going to take long to recover. 24-27 is 6 automatic hits, and average is going to be 8 or 9.

QUOTE
Since it is again highly likely that you're not supposed to be able to magically heal overcast drain


Assumes facts not in evidence. wink.gif But like I went back and toned down a bit, it will be Stun, but even the dwarf could do the F10 at Stun.

QUOTE
you are quite likely to be hit with more drain than you can first aid off


This is where that fat bonus on the Analyze Device rears its ugly head (again), adding a bunch of dice to the First Aid roll when using the rating 6 Medkit. (Home Ground again would provide a nice bonus as well.)

QUOTE
you're looking at going into this adventure with some large bonuses, no usable spirit, and some physical damage. Personally, I'd rather just have a Force 7 Air Elemental go punch my enemies in the face.

-Frank


Why no usable spirit? They are all on remote service. Remember, your Charisma is now 9-12 (or more with Exc. Attr.) meaning you can have 9-12 spirits. Even if they count against the bound total, you should have a slot or 2 open. Physical damage is unlikely and already explained. You can still have your F7 Air Elemental, probably with more services because you can use the Power Focus bonus to Summon and rely on buffed Atts. to resist drain. With the Analyze Device bonus and First Aid/Medkit, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to take P drain?

QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE
So dismiss the spirits, cross the ward, and resummon the spirits sending them back to their happy place on remote service

Is this bound or unbound? If bound you are really chewing through services there. If unbound sending to a happy place isn't really an option, by my interpretation. Although you are chewing through the services and are likely to need to Summon again anyway.


How are they going to be bound? They are only being bound to jam in your GM loophole. They require ritual materials and hours to bind. ohplease.gif

QUOTE
RAW does not explicitly allow you to slide something through a ward unnoticed. It was probably suppose to be in Fake Signature and Mask


Funny then the RAW don't put it there or refer to it. Also that it directly follows breaking through wards where it does explicitly say that the owner knows. It sounds exactly like an option for passing through undetected and the RAW describe allowing the magician to bring others through, just as it describes how creators of mana barriers can choose to allow others through.

QUOTE
Spells going into a sustaining foci are going to have minimal drain. Spell drain DV is usually less than Summoning, certainly less risky.


Assumes facts not in evidence. wink.gif Maybe for PCs at chargen, but I'm sure there are goin to be F5 and 6 sustaining foci. Too many sustained spells are damn near worthless at lower Force and the sustaining modifiers are going to stack up real quick. Yes, you know what to expect as far as drain value, but the drain is similar to summoning. A F5 spirit will average 1 hit (maybe 5, but figure 2 to be a bit pessimistic). Spells are a minimum of 1 and most sustained spells have a + in their Drain code. After the first one or two spirits, your Drain Resistance Attributes should be maxxed, helping all your magic.

QUOTE
ohplease.gif† An excellent example of how to be a rules lawyer dork! Especially the later part which is reaching further than Oprah would waddle for a twinkie.


I feel better standing on the legs of the arguement for doing this than I do on the remote/bound/rebelling/sustaining penalty crap you tried pulling.

QUOTE
Post Script

Spirit of Man spell casting seems to me limited to the category the magicians tradition associates with the Spirit of Man, although the RAW certainly isn't clear on that.


RAW:
QUOTE (Page 295)
Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner)

RTFM before making stupid assertions.
Azralon
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
Well, with the exception of Innate Spell, are there any powers that a spirit would benefit from taking multiple times?

Nope, so Innate Spell specifically needs a note saying if it can be taken multiple times (under the assumption that it'd be loaded with a different spell for each instance).
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:00 PM)
QUOTE
Post Script

Spirit of Man spell casting seems to me limited to the category the magicians tradition associates with the Spirit of Man, although the RAW certainly isn't clear on that.


RAW:
QUOTE (Page 295)
Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner)

RTFM before making stupid assertions.

It isn't really so much whether or not they can have the power. It is a matter of whether or not they can use it when the tradition category they are associated doesn't line up with the spell.

QUOTE (page 169)
A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category
of magic. Th ese associations serve to color how that tradition
views a particular type of spirit. Th ey also limit how a bound spir-
it of that type may serve a magician of that tradition (see Spirit
Services, p. 177).



QUOTE (tisoz)
How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?


Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.
tisoz
QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 01:09 PM)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 01:13 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 08:51 AM)
This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. wink.gif

This is the one I was thinking of. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11699 It is curiously enough titled 'Spirit of Man'. wink.gif

It is a couple days over a month old though, so a little older than I thought. When using the Search feature you'll do well to set the time higher than the default 30 days. On this forum 180 days helps avoid the pre-release speculation, although it has now been a bit more than 6 months since GenCon so you might miss some early post-release threads.

As I said and you even quoted And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. wink.gif .

I saw that thread, it led me to research some implications, and this is the first/oldest thread I intentionally found.

QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 7 2006, 01:59 PM)

Where does it say it gets multiple spells?

Thanks, I assumed that it was a possibility following the parts you later quote. A few things get convoluted when you are referencing a half dozen different parts of the rules.

Like I said in the previous post explaining to Frank, it is not necessary for the spirit to know multiple spells for this tactic to work, it just gets resolved a little quicker.

QUOTE (Azralon)
Whip up a Spirit of Man at Force 6 and "teach" it your Increase Reflexes spell. Have it cast that spell at Force 4 on you until it gets 4 hits (if it doesn't manage that before you run out of services, make a new one).


This ties in with something Frank said about Edge. Why not specify the service as "Cast Increase Reflexes at the +3 level before 5 minutes is up." Each time the spirit tries and fails it is subject to rather large drain. So it is in its best interest to cast it big the first time or reroll failures with Edge. The magician might even suggest the use of Edge, or include using Edge as part of the command if he doesn't think the spirit is going to get torqued off.
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:19 PM)
I saw that thread, it led me to research some implications, and this is the first/oldest thread I intentionally found.

Just letting you know there is more out there and that this has largely been covered before. Offhand I don't see you coming up with anything particularly new territory. At least if you read through it it would help get some of this initial stuff out of the way.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
If you're really worried about a spirit of man maintaining an increase reflexes spell for any length of time, just point at:

QUOTE (SR4 pg 179)

A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category. While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not suff er any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spiritís Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns. The magician can take over sustaining the spell as the spirit finishes this service (or at any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted or banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends.


so 1 service to cast the spell and 1 service for every (force, or fraction thereof) rounds.

The sustaining focus isn't looking too expensive at that point.

I see where you're going with this, and it makes sense to me, but I've got to ask... how exactly is having a spirit cast a spell worded? Does it imply that the spirit will sustain that spell for any length of time, or just that it will cast it?

It makes sense to me that for purposes of, say, healing (a spell you have to sustain until it actually becomes permanent), "casting" would include the maintenance of the spell... it's basically a "long cast." But if the RAW doesn't say that a spirit casting a spell will maintain it, AND it includes a "maintain spell" service, it makes sense to me that this would be the limit built into the system to avoid Nintendo-fed sustaining spirits.
Brahm
QUOTE (Shrike30)
I see where you're going with this, and it makes sense to me, but I've got to ask... how exactly is having a spirit cast a spell worded? Does it imply that the spirit will sustain that spell for any length of time, or just that it will cast it?

What he is describing is the spirit sustaining a spell that the magician cast. It is more efficent to have the spirit cast the spell himself, but the Spirit of Man is the only canon spirit type that can.
tisoz
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:00 PM)
QUOTE
Post Script

Spirit of Man spell casting seems to me limited to the category the magicians tradition associates with the Spirit of Man, although the RAW certainly isn't clear on that.


RAW:
QUOTE (Page 295)
Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner)

RTFM before making stupid assertions.

It isn't really so much whether or not they can have the power. It is a matter of whether or not they can use it when the tradition category they are associated doesn't line up with the spell.

QUOTE (page 169)
A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category
of magic. Th ese associations serve to color how that tradition
views a particular type of spirit. Th ey also limit how a bound spir-
it of that type may serve a magician of that tradition (see Spirit
Services, p. 177).

I am really not looking forward to how you can possibly warp this mumbo jumbo BS. It almost sounds like they are describing how to define created traditions and maybe spirit types for those new traditions. I see nothing there that would over ride more relevant, defined, placed material.

QUOTE
QUOTE (tisoz)
How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?


Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

Somehow, I think characters know they can influence their fate. I also think the ways they have done it themselves could be suggested/ordered to the spirit.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Well, yes...I admit it's pretty shaky - for instance I wouldn't insist on that interpretation for healing spells. In fact, in most cases, I wouldn't use it at all

But it's an interesting way of countering players who start abusing the innate spell power. While it's an interesting, quirky power, it should not be used to get your spellcasting done by using summoning instead.
tisoz
QUOTE (Brahm)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:19 PM)
I saw that thread, it led me to research some implications, and this is the first/oldest thread I intentionally found.

Just letting you know there is more out there and that this has largely been covered before. Offhand I don't see you coming up with anything particularly new territory. At least if you read through it it would help get some of this initial stuff out of the way.

I thought he caved to easily to your forced assertions. I don't think you have any valid points either, so ignore this thread.

It won't work in your game by your GM ruling. Fine. Quit trying to enforce your biased interpretation of the rules. We understand your point. It is the same lame point. Offhand I don't see you coming up with anything particularly new.

I guess putting the concepts of the threads together to help solve the individual problems each faced was not a new slant.
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:32 PM)
I am really not looking forward to how you can possibly warp this mumbo jumbo BS.† It almost sounds like they are describing how to define created traditions and maybe spirit types for those new traditions.† I see nothing there that would over ride more relevant, defined, placed material.

It most certainly could be qualifying the open ended Innate Spell description. SR4 does not spell out in detail different senarios or create redundant rule text to the same extent as SR3 did. Having this as a qualifier for the Innate Spell power would be in the style of SR4.

I can't say I'd look forward to playing with a rules lawyer dork. But that certainly isn't limited to SR4. I saw a quote on this board about SR4 not being written by lawyers, but instead being written by gamers. SR4 isn't nearly as condusive to a lawyering style of rules interpretation as SR3 was.


QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE
QUOTE (tisoz)
How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?


Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

Somehow, I think characters know they can influence their fate. I also think the ways they have done it themselves could be suggested/ordered to the spirit.


I suggest that entirely stripping a spirit of free will is likely not a good idea for the long term. But in the games GMed by you and those that see it that way that will be the case. So what will they say IC to get them to use Edge? "Try hard." "Give 'er!"
tisoz
QUOTE (Shrike30)
I see where you're going with this, and it makes sense to me, but I've got to ask... how exactly is having a spirit cast a spell worded? Does it imply that the spirit will sustain that spell for any length of time, or just that it will cast it?

QUOTE (page 295)
Optional Powers: Fear, Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner), Movement, Psychokinesis.

QUOTE (294)
In addition to their standard Powers, each spirit also has one Optional Power for every 3 full points of Force.  A Magician selects what Optional Power(s) he wishes a summoned spirit to possess as he summons it.

QUOTE (page 177)
Continual use of a specific power counts as only one service.

QUOTE
It makes sense to me that for purposes of, say, healing (a spell you have to sustain until it actually becomes permanent), "casting" would include the maintenance of the spell... it's basically a "long cast."  But if the RAW doesn't say that a spirit casting a spell will maintain it, AND it includes a "maintain spell" service, it makes sense to me that this would be the limit built into the system to avoid Nintendo-fed sustaining spirits.

I guess the summoner needs to specify continued use of the power to satisfy you.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Most powers are continual-use powers.

Most spells are cast as discreet instances.

Innate Spell (with a sustained spell) has the problem of bridging the two groups.


Unless you're saying that a spirit would be able to continually use, say, Slay Human at up to twice its force from sunrise to sunset as a single power use.

There's definitely room for player-GM negotiation on this particular power.
That's the point I've been arguing. As long as it's not being abused, leave it in the players hands - once it is, however...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Unless you're saying that a spirit would be able to continually use, say, Slay Human at up to twice its force from sunrise to sunset


Actually, I am saying that. That would constitute a single "combat" which would make it a single service.

As a single service, an unbound spirit can either:

1. Perform one task of finite length, using any and all of its powers as needed.

or

2. Use one power with an open ended duration.

So if you just want a spirit to use one power, it can keep that up all day. If you just want a spirit to save people from a train wreck, it can use as many of its powers as would be needed. Either costs a single service.

---

The thing where it sustains a spell only applies to spells cast by other characters. It can sustain its own spells normally, which is why the duration of the innate spell power is "per spell".

-Frank
tisoz
QUOTE (Brahm)
It most certainly could be qualifying the open ended Innate Spell description.

Now you are trying to latch that to the Innate Spell description? If the spell is possible within the magicians tradition and the spirit is within the magicians tradition, it would seem much more likely that the spirits use of that spell does not conflict with that tradition. Trying to say it would conflict seems stupid, and frankly grasping at straws.

QUOTE
SR4 does spell out in detail different senarios or create redundant rule text to the same extent as SR3 did. Having this as a qualifier for the Innate Spell power would be in the style of SR4.

What? And SR3 wtf?

QUOTE
I can't say I'd look forward to playing with a rules lawyer dork.

I would say let the flames begin, but this is not the first time in this thread you have alluded to me as a dork. Good strategy, if you are losing a discussion get the thread locked.

QUOTE
But that certainly isn't limited to SR4. I saw a quote on this board about SR4 not being written by lawyers, but instead being written by gamers.  SR4 isn't nearly as condusive to a lawyering style of rules interpretation as SR3 was.


I do not think I am trying to manipulate or subvert rules. I see that in your defense of why it will not work. I am just trying to exploit the rules to best advantage. Also to make a spell like Analyze Device, about useless used in a conventional way, usefull.

That is how this mess got started. I like the spell, but you need it at between Force 4 to get any use at all, and at Force 7 to get use in most situations. (Threshold of 1 to 4 and 2 dice modifier that needs overcome to get any benefit from the modifier itgrants.) So to cast at Force 7 to get a one die modifier in most situations is still about useless. It needs to be at Force 10+. Combine with spirits who can spellcast better than most spellcasters and not wanting to hurt some poor little Force 5 spirit, means needing to be able to summon a bigger spirit without dying. To do this your Drain resisting Attributes need to be maxxed. Etc., etc. ...

QUOTE
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE
QUOTE (tisoz)
How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?


Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

Somehow, I think characters know they can influence their fate. I also think the ways they have done it themselves could be suggested/ordered to the spirit.


I suggest that entirely stripping a spirit of free will is likely not a good idea for the long term. But in the games GMed by you and those that see it that way that will be the case. So what will they say IC to get them to use Edge? "Try hard." "Give 'er!"


I notice you ignored any reason for a spirit having Edge and changed the topic to IC and OOC and again throwing it to the GM to make it up as he goes along.

I imagine in your games the only real use for Edge would be in resisting summoning and binding, as that is the last chance for the spirit before its free will is stripped away and would be in the spirits best interest. There is nothing in the rules preventing it, and in your opinion it looks to be the only valid use. Who cares if that pretty much would make ummoning and/or binding damn near impossible. And just because the character doesn't have spirit bane, the spirit is surely going to attack the prick that tried to enslave it in a fight to the death.
Shrike30
EDIT: Yep, that's why I should refresh before posting...
Shrike30
QUOTE (tisoz)
I guess the summoner needs to specify continued use of the power to satisfy you.

Erm, no, he wouldn't. I asked how the use of the power was worded because I don't bring my SR4 book to work, so that I could see if the RAW actually prevented this. It doesn't. There's really no need to get snippy about it.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Uh...Frank...we don't really disagree here...

My (admittedly) rather snarky responses have primarily been aimed at people who would try to abuse the one power - "attack my enemies" (option 1) is well and good for a single close-combat situation, but the spirit would not neccessarily use the innate spell power to do it (GM's discretion).

OTOH, consider that a bound spirit can maintain someone elses spell for (force) days, at which point the spirit is destroyed vs. "cast and maintain this spell on me forever" which would cost a total of 1 service from a bound spirit, and per the RAW, would actually last until the either spell or spirit was disrupted in some manner. Once the GM decides to restore some semblance of balance to his game, that character is probably as good as dead.

Better to negotiate a solution everyone is reasonably OK with, as soon as it appears to potentially be a problem.
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 03:49 PM)
It most certainly could be qualifying the open ended Innate Spell description.

Now you are trying to latch that to the Innate Spell description? If the spell is possible within the magicians tradition and the spirit is within the magicians tradition, it would seem much more likely that the spirits use of that spell does not conflict with that tradition. Trying to say it would conflict seems stupid, and frankly grasping at straws.

No. The category the spirit is associated with by the tradition does . Whether it is just the magical aid services or extends to include the Innate Spell power is the question. The reference given is to all services.

QUOTE
QUOTE
SR4 does spell out in detail different senarios or create redundant rule text to the same extent as SR3 did. Having this as a qualifier for the Innate Spell power would be in the style of SR4.

What? And SR3 wtf?


I missed a not and didn't get it editted into the post before you read it.

QUOTE
QUOTE
I can't say I'd look forward to playing with a rules lawyer dork.†

I would say let the flames begin, but this is not the first time in this thread you have alluded to me as a dork. Good strategy, if you are losing a discussion get the thread locked.


Losing? Umm, not really but delude yourself all you like.

That dork was ment as a general reference. I did go back and change the post where it was refering to you. However if you don't like how the shoe fits you should just stop wearing it.


From the numbers you are giving for Analyze Device I think you misunderstand how it works. It should be broken off into it's own thread, if you are interested in it. But I will say that SR4 generally does have magicians casting at a higher force than in SR3, and that overcasting is fairly common.

QUOTE
I notice you ignored any reason for a spirit having Edge and changed the topic to IC and OOC and again throwing it to the GM to make it up as he goes along.


That is because it was tangental to my point, and likely for you to discuss for Frank.

QUOTE
I imagine in your games the only real use for Edge would be in resisting summoning and binding, as that is the last chance for the spirit before its free will is stripped away and would be in the spirits best interest. There is nothing in the rules preventing it, and in your opinion it looks to be the only valid use. Who cares if that pretty much would make ummoning and/or binding damn near impossible. And just because the character doesn't have spirit bane, the spirit is surely going to attack the prick that tried to enslave it in a fight to the death.


My games? Spirits are NPCs and act accordingly, although obviously heavily influenced by the magician. However a magician order to use Edge may or may not be followed by the spirit pending the situation.

A spirit is likely not going use all it's Edge up and leave itself defenseless. It is likely to use Edge to defend itself, and this includes from unwanted Binding. A PC that has Spirit Affinity or is able to convince the spirit to cooperate will likely avoid. Convincing the spirit is easier or harder depending on past actions by the magician towards spirits under their sway. It also depends somewhat on whether the Spirit feels superior to the character. Starting character trying to Bind a Force 10 spirit that doesn't want to be bound? The spirit is likely to resist using Edge and fry the character.

So I don't entirely agree with Franktroll on the absolute that the spirit would never do it. But on the other hand the spirit likley isn't going to be a happy camper when told to take on a -2 die or more penalty that will interfere with it's ability to defend itself.
Dissonance
Hm. I'm taking this point to wonder whether or not you could take a free spirit as a contact at, like, Loyalty 6. Get a sort of Ally Spirit situation going on without any of the immediate benefits, like extra metamagic and so forth.

I kind of toyed around with that idea for a bit in a campaign inspired by Mad Max and NyQuil. I'm just wondering if you treat a spirit contact well if they'd actually let themselves be bound. I don't know what exactly would entail keeping your spirit buddy happy, but it'd be kinda interesting.
Shrike30
The explanation of what a loyalty 6 contact would do for you is pretty impressive, but obviously this needs to be a situation where there's some give and take.

You could probably houserule a situation where the spirit remains unbound, but will perform "bound spirit" services as favors.
Dissonance
Aya. I figure that you just wouldn't metaphysically knock on the spirit's door and ask it to do something for you in the middle of the night.

I'm having a little bit of a brain fart right here, but I could see you doing things for your spirit in exchange for a consentual bind. Like getting it a domain to live in. Say, cleaning all the homeless people and gangers out of a public park.

Heck, I don't know what spirits want.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Dissonance)
Aya. I figure that you just wouldn't metaphysically knock on the spirit's door and ask it to do something for you in the middle of the night.

That's always been my impression of what you're basically doing with summoning, actually.

Spirits want esoteric things and don't think like a human, but if you pick some solid motivational direction and structure, you ought to be able to come up with a pretty interesting relationship there.
tisoz
QUOTE (Brahm)
No. The category the spirit is associated with by the tradition does . Whether it is just the magical aid services or extends to include the Innate Spell power is the question. The reference given is to all services.

So we are back to defining them as bound spirits to invoke a rule that does not mention the bound spirit service of performing any unbound spirit service of continual use of a power. That is what 2 or 3 degrees of relativity away?

It also seems that if the spirit were limited to only casting an innate spell in the Manipulation category for shamen or health category for hermetics, it might make that statement instead of the statement the rules do make of any one spell known by the summoner.

QUOTE
That dork was ment as a general reference. I did go back and change the post where it was refering to you. However if you don't like how the shoe fits you should just stop wearing it.


I have yet to see how I have come close to grasping at irrelevant passages and trying to twist meanings to the degree you have. Therefore, I feel your ruleslawyer dork comments fit you much better. I have not tried wearing the shoe, and atm, you are getting good mileage from them. I came right out and said I wished to exploit the RAW. I'm not trying to twist the rules to conform to how I want the game to work or some optimal power(less) level. I am also not trying to point out how badly the rules are written or cover up or patch up their inadequacy. And yet, this gets me referred to as a dork by you who have impressed me as doing these things? eek.gif spin.gif

QUOTE
From the numbers you are giving for Analyze Device I think you misunderstand how it works. It should be broken off into it's own thread, if you are interested in it. But I will say that SR4 generally does have magicians casting at a higher force than in SR3, and that overcasting is fairly common.


I'm sure I don't think it works as you no doubt have decided it works. I am sure you have contrived several ways for it to be useless.

I will say that some of my ways of saying it could work are on very loose definitions. But I'll start a thread just to keep you content in your authority figure role of telling us all how everything is. sarcastic.gif
emo samurai
QUOTE
I will say that some of my ways of saying it could work are on very loose definitions. But I'll start a thread just to keep you content in your authority figure role of telling us all how everything is. sarcastic.gif

A lot of people here have that problem.
Brahm
QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 10:41 PM)
It also seems that if the spirit were limited to only casting an innate spell in the Manipulation category for shamen or health category for hermetics, it might make that statement instead of the statement the rules do make of any one spell known by the summoner.

It would make very little sense to reference traditions since it is a generalized design. Also remember that it is an inline bit of text, so there would be some priority to keeping it terse.

QUOTE
I'm sure I don't think it works as you no doubt have decided it works. I am sure you have contrived several ways for it to be useless.


That's is the strange part. I don't see it as useless at all, even without your bizzare idea about an astral barrier as a device and pushing past it as using or operating the barrier.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012