Spirits of Man - better than sustaining focus?

Spirits of Man - better than sustaining focus?, Minmaxers, start your engines

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Azralon

Mar 7 2006, 09:00 PM

Post #26

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QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)

Well, with the exception of Innate Spell, are there any powers that a spirit would benefit from taking multiple times?

Nope, so Innate Spell specifically needs a note saying if it can be taken multiple times (under the assumption that it'd be loaded with a different spell for each instance).

Brahm

Mar 7 2006, 09:14 PM

Post #27

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QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:00 PM)

QUOTE

Post Script

Spirit of Man spell casting seems to me limited to the category the magicians tradition associates with the Spirit of Man, although the RAW certainly isn't clear on that.

RAW:

QUOTE (Page 295)

Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner)

RTFM before making stupid assertions.

It isn't really so much whether or not they can have the power. It is a matter of whether or not they can use it when the tradition category they are associated doesn't line up with the spell.

QUOTE (page 169)

A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category
of magic. Th ese associations serve to color how that tradition
views a particular type of spirit. Th ey also limit how a bound spir-
it of that type may serve a magician of that tradition (see Spirit
Services, p. 177).

QUOTE (tisoz)

How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?

Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

tisoz

Mar 7 2006, 09:19 PM

Post #28

Free Spirit

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QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 01:09 PM)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 01:13 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 08:51 AM)

This subject was covered within the last month. For bound spirist this helps a lot.

And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. ;)

This is the one I was thinking of. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11699 It is curiously enough titled 'Spirit of Man'. ;)

It is a couple days over a month old though, so a little older than I thought. When using the Search feature you'll do well to set the time higher than the default 30 days. On this forum 180 days helps avoid the pre-release speculation, although it has now been a bit more than 6 months since GenCon so you might miss some early post-release threads.

As I said and you even quoted And this is the first thread I found dealing with the topic. Maybe that other thread should have added to this one. ;) .

I saw that thread, it led me to research some implications, and this is the first/oldest thread I intentionally found.

QUOTE (Azralon @ Mar 7 2006, 01:59 PM)

Where does it say it gets multiple spells?

Thanks, I assumed that it was a possibility following the parts you later quote. A few things get convoluted when you are referencing a half dozen different parts of the rules.

Like I said in the previous post explaining to Frank, it is not necessary for the spirit to know multiple spells for this tactic to work, it just gets resolved a little quicker.

QUOTE (Azralon)

Whip up a Spirit of Man at Force 6 and "teach" it your Increase Reflexes spell. Have it cast that spell at Force 4 on you until it gets 4 hits (if it doesn't manage that before you run out of services, make a new one).

This ties in with something Frank said about Edge. Why not specify the service as "Cast Increase Reflexes at the +3 level before 5 minutes is up." Each time the spirit tries and fails it is subject to rather large drain. So it is in its best interest to cast it big the first time or reroll failures with Edge. The magician might even suggest the use of Edge, or include using Edge as part of the command if he doesn't think the spirit is going to get torqued off.

Brahm

Mar 7 2006, 09:22 PM

Post #29

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QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:19 PM)

I saw that thread, it led me to research some implications, and this is the first/oldest thread I intentionally found.

Just letting you know there is more out there and that this has largely been covered before. Offhand I don't see you coming up with anything particularly new territory. At least if you read through it it would help get some of this initial stuff out of the way.

Shrike30

Mar 7 2006, 09:23 PM

Post #30

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QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)

If you're really worried about a spirit of man maintaining an increase reflexes spell for any length of time, just point at:

QUOTE (SR4 pg 179)

A magician can call upon a spirit for Spell Sustaining a spell in the appropriate category. While the spirit maintains the spell, the magician does not suff er any sustaining modifiers for that particular spell. One service is used up for each period equal to the spirit’s Force in Combat Turns that it sustains the spell. A Force 3 spirit that owes two services, for example, can only sustain a spell for 6 Combat Turns. The magician can take over sustaining the spell as the spirit finishes this service (or at any time) so that the spell does not end. If a spirit is disrupted or banished while sustaining a spell, the spell ends.

so 1 service to cast the spell and 1 service for every (force, or fraction thereof) rounds.

The sustaining focus isn't looking too expensive at that point.

I see where you're going with this, and it makes sense to me, but I've got to ask... how exactly is having a spirit cast a spell worded? Does it imply that the spirit will sustain that spell for any length of time, or just that it will cast it?

It makes sense to me that for purposes of, say, healing (a spell you have to sustain until it actually becomes permanent), "casting" would include the maintenance of the spell... it's basically a "long cast." But if the RAW doesn't say that a spirit casting a spell will maintain it, AND it includes a "maintain spell" service, it makes sense to me that this would be the limit built into the system to avoid Nintendo-fed sustaining spirits.

Brahm

Mar 7 2006, 09:25 PM

Post #31

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

I see where you're going with this, and it makes sense to me, but I've got to ask... how exactly is having a spirit cast a spell worded? Does it imply that the spirit will sustain that spell for any length of time, or just that it will cast it?

What he is describing is the spirit sustaining a spell that the magician cast. It is more efficent to have the spirit cast the spell himself, but the Spirit of Man is the only canon spirit type that can.

tisoz

Mar 7 2006, 09:32 PM

Post #32

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:00 PM)

QUOTE

Post Script

Spirit of Man spell casting seems to me limited to the category the magicians tradition associates with the Spirit of Man, although the RAW certainly isn't clear on that.

RAW:

QUOTE (Page 295)

Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner)

RTFM before making stupid assertions.

It isn't really so much whether or not they can have the power. It is a matter of whether or not they can use it when the tradition category they are associated doesn't line up with the spell.

QUOTE (page 169)

A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category
of magic. Th ese associations serve to color how that tradition
views a particular type of spirit. Th ey also limit how a bound spir-
it of that type may serve a magician of that tradition (see Spirit
Services, p. 177).

I am really not looking forward to how you can possibly warp this mumbo jumbo BS. It almost sounds like they are describing how to define created traditions and maybe spirit types for those new traditions. I see nothing there that would over ride more relevant, defined, placed material.

QUOTE

QUOTE (tisoz)

How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?

Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

Somehow, I think characters know they can influence their fate. I also think the ways they have done it themselves could be suggested/ordered to the spirit.

Mr. Unpronouncea... Mr. Unpronounceable View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 09:37 PM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770	Well, yes...I admit it's pretty shaky - for instance I wouldn't insist on that interpretation for healing spells. In fact, in most cases, I wouldn't use it at all But it's an interesting way of countering players who start abusing the innate spell power. While it's an interesting, quirky power, it should not be used to get your spellcasting done by using summoning instead.

tisoz

Mar 7 2006, 09:40 PM

Post #34

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:19 PM)

I saw that thread, it led me to research some implications, and this is the first/oldest thread I intentionally found.

Just letting you know there is more out there and that this has largely been covered before. Offhand I don't see you coming up with anything particularly new territory. At least if you read through it it would help get some of this initial stuff out of the way.

I thought he caved to easily to your forced assertions. I don't think you have any valid points either, so ignore this thread.

It won't work in your game by your GM ruling. Fine. Quit trying to enforce your biased interpretation of the rules. We understand your point. It is the same lame point. Offhand I don't see you coming up with anything particularly new.

I guess putting the concepts of the threads together to help solve the individual problems each faced was not a new slant.

Brahm

Mar 7 2006, 09:49 PM

Post #35

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QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 04:32 PM)

I am really not looking forward to how you can possibly warp this mumbo jumbo BS. It almost sounds like they are describing how to define created traditions and maybe spirit types for those new traditions. I see nothing there that would over ride more relevant, defined, placed material.

It most certainly could be qualifying the open ended Innate Spell description. SR4 does not spell out in detail different senarios or create redundant rule text to the same extent as SR3 did. Having this as a qualifier for the Innate Spell power would be in the style of SR4.

I can't say I'd look forward to playing with a rules lawyer dork. But that certainly isn't limited to SR4. I saw a quote on this board about SR4 not being written by lawyers, but instead being written by gamers. SR4 isn't nearly as condusive to a lawyering style of rules interpretation as SR3 was.

QUOTE (tisoz)

QUOTE

QUOTE (tisoz)

How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?

Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

Somehow, I think characters know they can influence their fate. I also think the ways they have done it themselves could be suggested/ordered to the spirit.

I suggest that entirely stripping a spirit of free will is likely not a good idea for the long term. But in the games GMed by you and those that see it that way that will be the case. So what will they say IC to get them to use Edge? "Try hard." "Give 'er!"

tisoz

Mar 7 2006, 09:53 PM

Post #36

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

I see where you're going with this, and it makes sense to me, but I've got to ask... how exactly is having a spirit cast a spell worded? Does it imply that the spirit will sustain that spell for any length of time, or just that it will cast it?

QUOTE (page 295)

Optional Powers: Fear, Innate Spell (any one spell known by the summoner), Movement, Psychokinesis.

QUOTE (294)

In addition to their standard Powers, each spirit also has one Optional Power for every 3 full points of Force. A Magician selects what Optional Power(s) he wishes a summoned spirit to possess as he summons it.

QUOTE (page 177)

Continual use of a specific power counts as only one service.

QUOTE

It makes sense to me that for purposes of, say, healing (a spell you have to sustain until it actually becomes permanent), "casting" would include the maintenance of the spell... it's basically a "long cast." But if the RAW doesn't say that a spirit casting a spell will maintain it, AND it includes a "maintain spell" service, it makes sense to me that this would be the limit built into the system to avoid Nintendo-fed sustaining spirits.

I guess the summoner needs to specify continued use of the power to satisfy you.

Mr. Unpronouncea... Mr. Unpronounceable View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 10:11 PM Post #37
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770	Most powers are continual-use powers. Most spells are cast as discreet instances. Innate Spell (with a sustained spell) has the problem of bridging the two groups. Unless you're saying that a spirit would be able to continually use, say, Slay Human at up to twice its force from sunrise to sunset as a single power use. There's definitely room for player-GM negotiation on this particular power. That's the point I've been arguing. As long as it's not being abused, leave it in the players hands - once it is, however...

FrankTrollman

Mar 7 2006, 10:20 PM

Post #38

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QUOTE

Unless you're saying that a spirit would be able to continually use, say, Slay Human at up to twice its force from sunrise to sunset

Actually, I am saying that. That would constitute a single "combat" which would make it a single service.

As a single service, an unbound spirit can either:

1. Perform one task of finite length, using any and all of its powers as needed.

or

2. Use one power with an open ended duration.

So if you just want a spirit to use one power, it can keep that up all day. If you just want a spirit to save people from a train wreck, it can use as many of its powers as would be needed. Either costs a single service.

---

The thing where it sustains a spell only applies to spells cast by other characters. It can sustain its own spells normally, which is why the duration of the innate spell power is "per spell".

-Frank

tisoz

Mar 7 2006, 10:21 PM

Post #39

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QUOTE (Brahm)

It most certainly could be qualifying the open ended Innate Spell description.

Now you are trying to latch that to the Innate Spell description? If the spell is possible within the magicians tradition and the spirit is within the magicians tradition, it would seem much more likely that the spirits use of that spell does not conflict with that tradition. Trying to say it would conflict seems stupid, and frankly grasping at straws.

QUOTE

SR4 does spell out in detail different senarios or create redundant rule text to the same extent as SR3 did. Having this as a qualifier for the Innate Spell power would be in the style of SR4.

What? And SR3 wtf?

QUOTE

I can't say I'd look forward to playing with a rules lawyer dork.

I would say let the flames begin, but this is not the first time in this thread you have alluded to me as a dork. Good strategy, if you are losing a discussion get the thread locked.

QUOTE

But that certainly isn't limited to SR4. I saw a quote on this board about SR4 not being written by lawyers, but instead being written by gamers. SR4 isn't nearly as condusive to a lawyering style of rules interpretation as SR3 was.

I do not think I am trying to manipulate or subvert rules. I see that in your defense of why it will not work. I am just trying to exploit the rules to best advantage. Also to make a spell like Analyze Device, about useless used in a conventional way, usefull.

That is how this mess got started. I like the spell, but you need it at between Force 4 to get any use at all, and at Force 7 to get use in most situations. (Threshold of 1 to 4 and 2 dice modifier that needs overcome to get any benefit from the modifier itgrants.) So to cast at Force 7 to get a one die modifier in most situations is still about useless. It needs to be at Force 10+. Combine with spirits who can spellcast better than most spellcasters and not wanting to hurt some poor little Force 5 spirit, means needing to be able to summon a bigger spirit without dying. To do this your Drain resisting Attributes need to be maxxed. Etc., etc. ...

QUOTE

QUOTE (tisoz)

QUOTE

QUOTE (tisoz)

How is it going to not do so if it is asked or ordered to do so? How is this different than using edge to carry out other services? If there is no time a spirit would use edge, why does it have it and in abundance?

Orders are given IC. Edge is OOC. It is within the domain of the GM to determine how enthusiastically an NPC pursues an action.

Somehow, I think characters know they can influence their fate. I also think the ways they have done it themselves could be suggested/ordered to the spirit.

I suggest that entirely stripping a spirit of free will is likely not a good idea for the long term. But in the games GMed by you and those that see it that way that will be the case. So what will they say IC to get them to use Edge? "Try hard." "Give 'er!"

I notice you ignored any reason for a spirit having Edge and changed the topic to IC and OOC and again throwing it to the GM to make it up as he goes along.

I imagine in your games the only real use for Edge would be in resisting summoning and binding, as that is the last chance for the spirit before its free will is stripped away and would be in the spirits best interest. There is nothing in the rules preventing it, and in your opinion it looks to be the only valid use. Who cares if that pretty much would make ummoning and/or binding damn near impossible. And just because the character doesn't have spirit bane, the spirit is surely going to attack the prick that tried to enslave it in a fight to the death.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 10:49 PM Post #40
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	EDIT: Yep, that's why I should refresh before posting... This post has been edited by Shrike30: Mar 7 2006, 10:51 PM

Shrike30

Mar 7 2006, 10:53 PM

Post #41

Runner

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QUOTE (tisoz)

I guess the summoner needs to specify continued use of the power to satisfy you.

Erm, no, he wouldn't. I asked how the use of the power was worded because I don't bring my SR4 book to work, so that I could see if the RAW actually prevented this. It doesn't. There's really no need to get snippy about it.

Mr. Unpronouncea... Mr. Unpronounceable View Member Profile	Mar 7 2006, 10:56 PM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770	Uh...Frank...we don't really disagree here... My (admittedly) rather snarky responses have primarily been aimed at people who would try to abuse the one power - "attack my enemies" (option 1) is well and good for a single close-combat situation, but the spirit would not neccessarily use the innate spell power to do it (GM's discretion). OTOH, consider that a bound spirit can maintain someone elses spell for (force) days, at which point the spirit is destroyed vs. "cast and maintain this spell on me forever" which would cost a total of 1 service from a bound spirit, and per the RAW, would actually last until the either spell or spirit was disrupted in some manner. Once the GM decides to restore some semblance of balance to his game, that character is probably as good as dead. Better to negotiate a solution everyone is reasonably OK with, as soon as it appears to potentially be a problem.

Brahm

Mar 8 2006, 12:18 AM

Post #43

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QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 05:21 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Mar 7 2006, 03:49 PM)

It most certainly could be qualifying the open ended Innate Spell description.

Now you are trying to latch that to the Innate Spell description? If the spell is possible within the magicians tradition and the spirit is within the magicians tradition, it would seem much more likely that the spirits use of that spell does not conflict with that tradition. Trying to say it would conflict seems stupid, and frankly grasping at straws.

No. The category the spirit is associated with by the tradition does . Whether it is just the magical aid services or extends to include the Innate Spell power is the question. The reference given is to all services.

QUOTE

SR4 does spell out in detail different senarios or create redundant rule text to the same extent as SR3 did. Having this as a qualifier for the Innate Spell power would be in the style of SR4.

What? And SR3 wtf?

I missed a not and didn't get it editted into the post before you read it.

QUOTE

I can't say I'd look forward to playing with a rules lawyer dork.

I would say let the flames begin, but this is not the first time in this thread you have alluded to me as a dork. Good strategy, if you are losing a discussion get the thread locked.

Losing? Umm, not really but delude yourself all you like.

That dork was ment as a general reference. I did go back and change the post where it was refering to you. However if you don't like how the shoe fits you should just stop wearing it.

From the numbers you are giving for Analyze Device I think you misunderstand how it works. It should be broken off into it's own thread, if you are interested in it. But I will say that SR4 generally does have magicians casting at a higher force than in SR3, and that overcasting is fairly common.

QUOTE

I notice you ignored any reason for a spirit having Edge and changed the topic to IC and OOC and again throwing it to the GM to make it up as he goes along.

That is because it was tangental to my point, and likely for you to discuss for Frank.

QUOTE

I imagine in your games the only real use for Edge would be in resisting summoning and binding, as that is the last chance for the spirit before its free will is stripped away and would be in the spirits best interest. There is nothing in the rules preventing it, and in your opinion it looks to be the only valid use. Who cares if that pretty much would make ummoning and/or binding damn near impossible. And just because the character doesn't have spirit bane, the spirit is surely going to attack the prick that tried to enslave it in a fight to the death.

My games? Spirits are NPCs and act accordingly, although obviously heavily influenced by the magician. However a magician order to use Edge may or may not be followed by the spirit pending the situation.

A spirit is likely not going use all it's Edge up and leave itself defenseless. It is likely to use Edge to defend itself, and this includes from unwanted Binding. A PC that has Spirit Affinity or is able to convince the spirit to cooperate will likely avoid. Convincing the spirit is easier or harder depending on past actions by the magician towards spirits under their sway. It also depends somewhat on whether the Spirit feels superior to the character. Starting character trying to Bind a Force 10 spirit that doesn't want to be bound? The spirit is likely to resist using Edge and fry the character.

So I don't entirely agree with Franktroll on the absolute that the spirit would never do it. But on the other hand the spirit likley isn't going to be a happy camper when told to take on a -2 die or more penalty that will interfere with it's ability to defend itself.

Dissonance View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 12:27 AM Post #44
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992	Hm. I'm taking this point to wonder whether or not you could take a free spirit as a contact at, like, Loyalty 6. Get a sort of Ally Spirit situation going on without any of the immediate benefits, like extra metamagic and so forth. I kind of toyed around with that idea for a bit in a campaign inspired by Mad Max and NyQuil. I'm just wondering if you treat a spirit contact well if they'd actually let themselves be bound. I don't know what exactly would entail keeping your spirit buddy happy, but it'd be kinda interesting.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 12:30 AM Post #45
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	The explanation of what a loyalty 6 contact would do for you is pretty impressive, but obviously this needs to be a situation where there's some give and take. You could probably houserule a situation where the spirit remains unbound, but will perform "bound spirit" services as favors.

Dissonance View Member Profile	Mar 8 2006, 12:41 AM Post #46
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992	Aya. I figure that you just wouldn't metaphysically knock on the spirit's door and ask it to do something for you in the middle of the night. I'm having a little bit of a brain fart right here, but I could see you doing things for your spirit in exchange for a consentual bind. Like getting it a domain to live in. Say, cleaning all the homeless people and gangers out of a public park. Heck, I don't know what spirits want.

Shrike30

Mar 8 2006, 12:46 AM

Post #47

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QUOTE (Dissonance)

Aya. I figure that you just wouldn't metaphysically knock on the spirit's door and ask it to do something for you in the middle of the night.

That's always been my impression of what you're basically doing with summoning, actually.

Spirits want esoteric things and don't think like a human, but if you pick some solid motivational direction and structure, you ought to be able to come up with a pretty interesting relationship there.

tisoz

Mar 8 2006, 03:41 AM

Post #48

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QUOTE (Brahm)

No. The category the spirit is associated with by the tradition does . Whether it is just the magical aid services or extends to include the Innate Spell power is the question. The reference given is to all services.

So we are back to defining them as bound spirits to invoke a rule that does not mention the bound spirit service of performing any unbound spirit service of continual use of a power. That is what 2 or 3 degrees of relativity away?

It also seems that if the spirit were limited to only casting an innate spell in the Manipulation category for shamen or health category for hermetics, it might make that statement instead of the statement the rules do make of any one spell known by the summoner.

QUOTE

That dork was ment as a general reference. I did go back and change the post where it was refering to you. However if you don't like how the shoe fits you should just stop wearing it.

I have yet to see how I have come close to grasping at irrelevant passages and trying to twist meanings to the degree you have. Therefore, I feel your ruleslawyer dork comments fit you much better. I have not tried wearing the shoe, and atm, you are getting good mileage from them. I came right out and said I wished to exploit the RAW. I'm not trying to twist the rules to conform to how I want the game to work or some optimal power(less) level. I am also not trying to point out how badly the rules are written or cover up or patch up their inadequacy. And yet, this gets me referred to as a dork by you who have impressed me as doing these things? :eek: :spin:

QUOTE

From the numbers you are giving for Analyze Device I think you misunderstand how it works. It should be broken off into it's own thread, if you are interested in it. But I will say that SR4 generally does have magicians casting at a higher force than in SR3, and that overcasting is fairly common.

I'm sure I don't think it works as you no doubt have decided it works. I am sure you have contrived several ways for it to be useless.

I will say that some of my ways of saying it could work are on very loose definitions. But I'll start a thread just to keep you content in your authority figure role of telling us all how everything is. :S

emo samurai

Mar 8 2006, 03:44 AM

Post #49

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QUOTE

I will say that some of my ways of saying it could work are on very loose definitions. But I'll start a thread just to keep you content in your authority figure role of telling us all how everything is. :S

A lot of people here have that problem.

Brahm

Mar 8 2006, 06:55 AM

Post #50

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QUOTE (tisoz @ Mar 7 2006, 10:41 PM)

It also seems that if the spirit were limited to only casting an innate spell in the Manipulation category for shamen or health category for hermetics, it might make that statement instead of the statement the rules do make of any one spell known by the summoner.

It would make very little sense to reference traditions since it is a generalized design. Also remember that it is an inline bit of text, so there would be some priority to keeping it terse.

QUOTE

I'm sure I don't think it works as you no doubt have decided it works. I am sure you have contrived several ways for it to be useless.

That's is the strange part. I don't see it as useless at all, even without your bizzare idea about an astral barrier as a device and pushing past it as using or operating the barrier.

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