Trolls what are they good for? Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

Seriously considering the skill system, and trolls improved attributes are in attributes with virtually no linked skills why play a troll especially at 40 BP. I mean yeah standing around like a useless git and taking bullets is a really important job and all but I'd find it a bit boring.

They used to be dang good in hand to hand combat, now the only race worse than them is the dwarf. Elves are maybe the best at well virtually everything a runner does. Not by much, but an extra 2 dice max in every agility skill is kind nice. Trolls are capped at a 7 agility where basically every skill most trolls would want to use is.

[mintcar]

They´re the worlds best athletes...


And they still have decent agility, +1 reach and one hell of a melee damage output.

The extra strength and body you get for the 40 BP could leave room to put points into other attributes if you don´t want to be the brick wall. You get a rather high minimum, but you don´t have to go higher than that, you know.

Still I hope none of my players choose the troll. Having trolls in situations were most runners have to be (sitting in a meeting, in a cab...), can really put a toll on the suspension of disbelief.

[SirBedevere]

They make great paperweights.....if you're a dragon :D

[Shinobi Killfist]

great athletes, ah my troll idea Bob the troll bike messenger who just happens to get wrapped up in these zany sr adventures can live. :please:

Oh yeah, I can't contain my excitement about troll suckage.

[Crusher Bob]

The 'effective cap' on the mental stats is a real killer too (ie the 10 bp point cap)

C 3
I 4
L 4

[FrankTrollman]

The cap on starting attributes for everyone is really low anyhow. You can't spend more than 200 points on metal and physical attributes. That means that if you buy up your starting mental stats to the limit you can bring a Troll's before it starts costing more (C3, I4, L4, W5), you've already spent 120 points - leaving less than half your points for physical attributes! The cap on starting attributes for everyone is equivalent to an average stat of 3.5 plus metatype bonuses. You can't even afford to have your Troll's mental stats brought up to the limits, so it doesn't even matter that those limits are there.

Meanwhile, the +4 Strength and +4 Body is a real advantage. Not only does it increase the limit, but it actually increases your starting value in Strength and Body such that you can actually afford to get your stats up there. So you just paid 40 points to get 40 points worth of Body over and above the attribute caps, and then you got a bunch of strength and Reach and bonus armor on top of that.

In conclusion: Stat penalties reduce your maximums, which you can't afford to get anyway because characters in SR4 get so few stat points. Stat bonuses increase your actual starting values, which means that they are free points. That means that the more stat bonuses and penalties you get the better off you are - even if you don't give a ghoul's hoop about the stats you are getting bonuses in!

This is why Orks are the master race. They are very close to free and get a bunch of stat modifiers and have minimal social and conomic disadvantages. But Trolls are pretty good too. The people who are really getting screwed by the new edition are Elves. 30 points and less stat gain than an Ork? Why?

-Frank

[Crusher Bob]

Because not all stats are created equal. It's hard to turn 'being really strong' into an overwhlming advantage (barring possible use of trollbows). Elves on the other hand, get bonuses to agility (the stat) and charisma (in 3rd place for stat importance).

Though it is possible to build a 'runt' troll who has:

BOD 5
AGL 4
REA 5
STR 5
CHA 3
INT 4
LOG 4
WIL 5

and paying 190 points for those stats, hmm... That's a pretty good stat line, and only 230 points to get there, trolls might not be as bad as I thought, you just sacrifice in traditional troll areas of strenth. (A human would pay 270 points for the same statline)

[Fortune]

[Supercilious]

I would play a troll because I can smash your puny head in with my bare hands...

[prionic6]

If you take the ork poser (as an elf) quality you can get 5 points back ;)

[blakkie]

[JongWK]

[Shinobi Killfist]

Evles are the god race in 4e. That +1 to agility can save an ungodly amount of BP in skills. Even if you only take long arms and close combat that's a 20 point savings. Sure a troll can save a ton of points in athletics, but who cares. All the important skills are agility.

A better skill group attribute would of made close combat a str(usually) skill. Trolls would of been absurd in hand to hand combat, but there a very specialized race and they should be better than others at it. As is there a very specialized race whose supposed to be good in combat and instead they suck at it, except for right out of chargen they'll be average.

[prionic6]

I also think having close combat linked to agility is okay for some styles but for others strength would be the better choice. Maybe houserule it like this: If you take a specialisation in unarmed combat (like, say, "brawl") you can choose to have it linked to strenght instead of agility. Or even the other way around - normally linked to strength but certain styles link to agilty.

[Feshy]

[FrankTrollman]

Trolls definately don't "suck" in close combat. The have an Agility max that is one point lower (which may or may not set you back one die), and they have +1 Reach that gives them one extra die in close combat. For 30 BPs in Agility a Troll is as good as any single other race except Elves who spends 40 BP, and is the equal of an Elf who spends 30 BP. And they hit harder and are more difficult to kill.

Having more than 4s in more than a few stats just isn't going t happen, so the fact that a Troll gets capped at 4s in so many stats on chargen is just not important. The fact that they get outright bonus dice from rech, dermal armor, and massive body enhancements does however.

-Frank

[FrankTrollman]

[mfb]

[Feshy]

I've discovered the other things Trolls are good 'fer. Running you down like a bug.

Check out the movement table on p. 138. Metahumans run at 25m a turn, with two exceptions. The slowpoke Dwarf (20m), and the speed demon troll at a whopping 35m. That means you need 5 "hits" on your sprint test to get away before he uses that reach and silly high strength to pummel you into the dirt. And even then you only put it off another turn... (Never mind that the troll can sprint too -- and the test is based on his strength)

[mintcar]

So a troll runs 35 m per turn + 2 meters per hit on the sprint test. Let´s say that a troll has a running skill of 5 and strenght 10. Lets say the running test turns up the average 5 hits. That´s 45 m in a turn on average. 15 m per second. A strong and fast troll can run 54 km/h without a problem. :D (This troll would breach inner city speed limits on a morning jog)

[hobgoblin]

ok so while a elf can maybe dodge like a pre-awakening neo the troll can just stand there and take it like agent smith and then toss said elf across the room :D

that elf better have some fancy moves or be loco to go up against a troll :silly:

[hyzmarca]

[Cochise]

[Chandon]

[hyzmarca]