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Shinobi Killfist
Seriously considering the skill system, and trolls improved attributes are in attributes with virtually no linked skills why play a troll especially at 40 BP. I mean yeah standing around like a useless git and taking bullets is a really important job and all but I'd find it a bit boring.

They used to be dang good in hand to hand combat, now the only race worse than them is the dwarf. Elves are maybe the best at well virtually everything a runner does. Not by much, but an extra 2 dice max in every agility skill is kind nice. Trolls are capped at a 7 agility where basically every skill most trolls would want to use is.

mintcar
Theyīre the worlds best athletes...


And they still have decent agility, +1 reach and one hell of a melee damage output.

The extra strength and body you get for the 40 BP could leave room to put points into other attributes if you donīt want to be the brick wall. You get a rather high minimum, but you donīt have to go higher than that, you know.

Still I hope none of my players choose the troll. Having trolls in situations were most runners have to be (sitting in a meeting, in a cab...), can really put a toll on the suspension of disbelief.
SirBedevere
They make great paperweights.....if you're a dragon biggrin.gif
Shinobi Killfist
great athletes, ah my troll idea Bob the troll bike messenger who just happens to get wrapped up in these zany sr adventures can live. ohplease.gif

Oh yeah, I can't contain my excitement about troll suckage.
Crusher Bob
The 'effective cap' on the mental stats is a real killer too (ie the 10 bp point cap)

C 3
I 4
L 4

FrankTrollman
The cap on starting attributes for everyone is really low anyhow. You can't spend more than 200 points on metal and physical attributes. That means that if you buy up your starting mental stats to the limit you can bring a Troll's before it starts costing more (C3, I4, L4, W5), you've already spent 120 points - leaving less than half your points for physical attributes! The cap on starting attributes for everyone is equivalent to an average stat of 3.5 plus metatype bonuses. You can't even afford to have your Troll's mental stats brought up to the limits, so it doesn't even matter that those limits are there.

Meanwhile, the +4 Strength and +4 Body is a real advantage. Not only does it increase the limit, but it actually increases your starting value in Strength and Body such that you can actually afford to get your stats up there. So you just paid 40 points to get 40 points worth of Body over and above the attribute caps, and then you got a bunch of strength and Reach and bonus armor on top of that.

In conclusion: Stat penalties reduce your maximums, which you can't afford to get anyway because characters in SR4 get so few stat points. Stat bonuses increase your actual starting values, which means that they are free points. That means that the more stat bonuses and penalties you get the better off you are - even if you don't give a ghoul's hoop about the stats you are getting bonuses in!

This is why Orks are the master race. They are very close to free and get a bunch of stat modifiers and have minimal social and conomic disadvantages. But Trolls are pretty good too. The people who are really getting screwed by the new edition are Elves. 30 points and less stat gain than an Ork? Why?

-Frank
Crusher Bob
Because not all stats are created equal. It's hard to turn 'being really strong' into an overwhlming advantage (barring possible use of trollbows). Elves on the other hand, get bonuses to agility (the stat) and charisma (in 3rd place for stat importance).

Though it is possible to build a 'runt' troll who has:

BOD 5
AGL 4
REA 5
STR 5
CHA 3
INT 4
LOG 4
WIL 5

and paying 190 points for those stats, hmm... That's a pretty good stat line, and only 230 points to get there, trolls might not be as bad as I thought, you just sacrifice in traditional troll areas of strenth. (A human would pay 270 points for the same statline)
Fortune
QUOTE
The people who are really getting screwed by the new edition are Elves. 30 points and less stat gain than an Ork?


Nothing new. Elves were screwed (BP-wise) in SR3 as well.
Supercilious
I would play a troll because I can smash your puny head in with my bare hands...
prionic6
If you take the ork poser (as an elf) quality you can get 5 points back wink.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE
The people who are really getting screwed by the new edition are Elves. 30 points and less stat gain than an Ork?


Nothing new. Elves were screwed (BP-wise) in SR3 as well.

But they have no reduced Attribute limits. I know that isn't so much at build time, but eventually that means a lot more as those reduced limits also reduce the augmented limit as well. It is like having 3 extra Exceptional Attributes, which when looked at that way is damn cheap for 30BP (ok, only 2 extra if you count Humans as having one with the extra Edge).
JongWK
QUOTE (prionic6)
If you take the ork poser (as an elf) quality you can get 5 points back wink.gif

My hero. biggrin.gif
Shinobi Killfist
Evles are the god race in 4e. That +1 to agility can save an ungodly amount of BP in skills. Even if you only take long arms and close combat that's a 20 point savings. Sure a troll can save a ton of points in athletics, but who cares. All the important skills are agility.

A better skill group attribute would of made close combat a str(usually) skill. Trolls would of been absurd in hand to hand combat, but there a very specialized race and they should be better than others at it. As is there a very specialized race whose supposed to be good in combat and instead they suck at it, except for right out of chargen they'll be average.
prionic6
I also think having close combat linked to agility is okay for some styles but for others strength would be the better choice. Maybe houserule it like this: If you take a specialisation in unarmed combat (like, say, "brawl") you can choose to have it linked to strenght instead of agility. Or even the other way around - normally linked to strength but certain styles link to agilty.
Feshy
QUOTE
I mean yeah standing around like a useless git and taking bullets is a really important job and all but I'd find it a bit boring.


Incidentally, if you change your mind, trolls can be very, VERY good at taking bullets.

CODE

Introducing: Meathead the Invincible Troll Munchkin

Troll (40 BP)
Adept (5 BP)
Toughness (10 BP)
Exceptional Body (20 BP)

Magic 6 (65 BP)
Bod  11 (75 BP)

175k in gear (35 BP)

Take these powers (using 4 magic points):
Combat Sense 4
Mystic Armor 4 (feel free to mix these up however you like)

And get this bioware:
Orthoskin (3)
Bone Density (4)

then grab yourself a camo suit, helmet, and a ballistic shield.


Total BP spent: 250. (Spend some more in Willpower, or that mana bolt will hurt)

Come high-speed lead time, you get to roll 43 dice in damage resistance (11 body + 1 toughness + 4 bone density + 4 combat sense + 4 mystic armor + 3 orthoskin + 8 camo suit armor +1 natural troll +6 ballistic shield, +1 helmet)

That's 14 hits average roll. The infamous panther cannon is 10P, it'd take a lucky hit to even scratch you. It would take 22 DV to do you physical harm. It'd get worse if you ever got ahold of security armor.

Now, as a note, I'd never play anything like that. But one thing I like to do when I first see some game rules is see just how much I can abuse the system. Meathead here looks like an easy but game-unablancingly bad abuse to me. Fortunatley, he's so one-dimensional he'll likely not be good for much but taking bullets. Then again, 150 BP is enough to be a decent hacker still... There goes THAT geek stereotype.

(I've heard talk of a 24 die max on rolls in here, but I haven't seen it. Is there such a max?)
FrankTrollman
Trolls definately don't "suck" in close combat. The have an Agility max that is one point lower (which may or may not set you back one die), and they have +1 Reach that gives them one extra die in close combat. For 30 BPs in Agility a Troll is as good as any single other race except Elves who spends 40 BP, and is the equal of an Elf who spends 30 BP. And they hit harder and are more difficult to kill.

Having more than 4s in more than a few stats just isn't going t happen, so the fact that a Troll gets capped at 4s in so many stats on chargen is just not important. The fact that they get outright bonus dice from rech, dermal armor, and massive body enhancements does however.

-Frank
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I've heard talk of a 24 die max on rolls in here, but I haven't seen it. Is there such a max?


No. There is no such max. There is an effective 24 die max on human offensive actions, simply because your modified stat is capped, and your modified skill is capped. But the table for buying hits on page 56 goes out to dice pools of 39 dice. There is no hard cap on having more than 24 dice in your dice pools.

Which means that Spirits can be extremely nasty indeed - what with the fact that they have no racial maximums on their attributes or skills. A Force 12 Air Spirit (summonable by a starting character as it happens), can spend an edge to have a dice pool on an attack of... 39 dice. So it seems that when you compare and contrast the largest dice pools they bothered to write ruls for that this is for some reason intent.

You can begin shuddering in fear now.

-Frank
mfb
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
Trolls what are they good for?

unh! absolutely nothin'!
Feshy
I've discovered the other things Trolls are good 'fer. Running you down like a bug.

Check out the movement table on p. 138. Metahumans run at 25m a turn, with two exceptions. The slowpoke Dwarf (20m), and the speed demon troll at a whopping 35m. That means you need 5 "hits" on your sprint test to get away before he uses that reach and silly high strength to pummel you into the dirt. And even then you only put it off another turn... (Never mind that the troll can sprint too -- and the test is based on his strength)
mintcar
So a troll runs 35 m per turn + 2 meters per hit on the sprint test. Letīs say that a troll has a running skill of 5 and strenght 10. Lets say the running test turns up the average 5 hits. Thatīs 45 m in a turn on average. 15 m per second. A strong and fast troll can run 54 km/h without a problem. biggrin.gif (This troll would breach inner city speed limits on a morning jog)
hobgoblin
ok so while a elf can maybe dodge like a pre-awakening neo the troll can just stand there and take it like agent smith and then toss said elf across the room biggrin.gif

that elf better have some fancy moves or be loco to go up against a troll silly.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mintcar @ Sep 5 2005, 05:04 PM)
So a troll runs 35 m per turn + 2 meters per hit on the sprint test. Letīs say that a troll has a running skill of 5 and strenght 10. Lets say the running test turns up the average 5 hits. Thatīs 45 m in a turn on average. 15 m per second. A strong and fast troll can run 54 km/h without a problem.  biggrin.gif (This troll would breach inner city speed limits on a morning jog)

So, when all of the pertainant sourcebooks come out someone is going to make a Troll ghoul Horse shaman mystic adept who can outrun the SR3 Night One Ghoul horse shaman magican adept and carry all of the gear?
Cochise
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
So, when all of the pertainant sourcebooks come out someone is going to make a Troll ghoul Horse shaman mystic adept who can outrun the SR3 Night One Ghoul horse shaman magican adept and carry all of the gear?

You forgot the "Satyr Legs" SURGE Trait ... but yeah ... I envision a Troll of that kind ... nicknamed "AFTERBURNER" or "CRASHDIVE" Depending on how good he is at moving with mach speed at ground level and simultaniously avoiding vehicles and other obstacles in his path ...
Chandon
QUOTE (Cochise)
You forgot the "Satyr Legs" SURGE Trait ...

If I remember correctly, the plan in SR3 was to play a Satyr with the Satyr Legs surge trait and Kid Stealth Cyberlegs (because the bonuses clearly stacked).
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Chandon)
QUOTE (Cochise)
You forgot the "Satyr Legs" SURGE Trait ...

If I remember correctly, the plan in SR3 was to play a Satyr with the Satyr Legs surge trait and Kid Stealth Cyberlegs (because the bonuses clearly stacked).

Nah, you are still better off with a Night One. Satyrs have a -1 quickness penality. Night One's have a +2 quickness bonus. Since the running multiplier is applied to quickness, the Satyr is at a disadvantage.
Cochise
QUOTE (Chandon)
If I remember correctly, the plan in SR3 was to play a Satyr with the Satyr Legs surge trait and Kid Stealth Cyberlegs (because the bonuses clearly stacked).

With the little Problem that the metavariant "Satyr" already possessing "Satyr Legs", thus no further SURGE possibility in that direction ... and Kid Stealth Legs replacing those entirely, thus simply exchanging one positive mod by an identical other one => Doesn't work.

Night One (+2 Quick *or rather +3 at maximum natural attribute*), Ghoul (longer legs, Running multiplier +1), Satyr Legs SURGE (structural reformation of those longer legs, Running mulitiplier again +1), horse shaman (movement power as metamagic) was / is the best combo for Overall Quickness * 5 (total running multiplier) * 5 (Essence for movement power) = QUI * 25.

An no, no going Ghoul won't make it better, since the total running multiplier will drop to 4 while the Essence for movement will go to 6, but 4*6 = 24 < 25 ...
OSUMacbeth
QUOTE
I mean yeah standing around like a useless git and taking bullets is a really important job and all but I'd find it a bit boring.


Incidentally, if you change your mind, trolls can be very, VERY good at taking bullets.

CODE
Introducing: Meathead the Invincible Troll Munchkin

Troll (40 BP)
Adept (5 BP)
Toughness (10 BP)
Exceptional Body (20 BP)

Magic 6 (65 BP)
Bod  11 (75 BP)

175k in gear (35 BP)

Take these powers (using 4 magic points):
Combat Sense 4
Mystic Armor 4 (feel free to mix these up however you like)

And get this bioware:
Orthoskin (3)
Bone Density (4)

then grab yourself a camo suit, helmet, and a ballistic shield.


Total BP spent: 250. (Spend some more in Willpower, or that mana bolt will hurt)

Come high-speed lead time, you get to roll 43 dice in damage resistance (11 body + 1 toughness + 4 bone density + 4 combat sense + 4 mystic armor + 3 orthoskin + 8 camo suit armor +1 natural troll +6 ballistic shield, +1 helmet)

That's 14 hits average roll. The infamous panther cannon is 10P, it'd take a lucky hit to even scratch you. It would take 22 DV to do you physical harm. It'd get worse if you ever got ahold of security armor.

Now, as a note, I'd never play anything like that. But one thing I like to do when I first see some game rules is see just how much I can abuse the system. Meathead here looks like an easy but game-unablancingly bad abuse to me. Fortunatley, he's so one-dimensional he'll likely not be good for much but taking bullets. Then again, 150 BP is enough to be a decent hacker still... There goes THAT geek stereotype.

(I've heard talk of a 24 die max on rolls in here, but I haven't seen it. Is there such a max?)


One of my players is doing this...what do I do? I don't know how to hurt him in any way other than magic. It seems safe to say he'll be immune to like 90% of the game content, and if I throw tougher things at him I'm likely to kill the group in the process of trying to challenge him. I'm actually beginning to think that the whole stun damage thing isn't so bad after all. At least by doing stun some folks might be able to drop him. Not if we use the half stun house rule, though. Suggestions?

OSUMacbeth
evil1i
QUOTE (OSUMacbeth @ Sep 5 2005, 09:40 PM)
One of my players is doing this...what do I do? I don't know how to hurt him in any way other than magic. It seems safe to say he'll be immune to like 90% of the game content, and if I throw tougher things at him I'm likely to kill the group in the process of trying to challenge him. I'm actually beginning to think that the whole stun damage thing isn't so bad after all. At least by doing stun some folks might be able to drop him. Not if we use the half stun house rule, though. Suggestions?

OSUMacbeth

Ok so 3 options are:

1) Restrain or Neutralise him - as in physically (bola, lasso, net-gun etc)

2) Magic him obtusely - chaotic world is still around as a spell isn't it or maybe agony

3) Use the Troll inherant disadvantage against him - can't get into meets because of his size and weight (no mention has been made of Metahuman weights in SR4 - have they finally fixed them - if not read http://tss.dumpshock.com/html/tss-13/index.htm and try extrapolating it to 4th ed)

Basically if you neutralise his advantages (by not allowing him the opportunity to use them or the situation to use them) or providing him with no useful input (by moving the game away from his character) or highlighting his disadvantages.

Trolls and their metavariants don't get hampered enough by their forms - A friend and I made identical twin trolls in 3rd Ed. with the highest bodies we could get as an experiement and we then went around the local area working out where they would have problems and there are so many it is not funny - most cars aren't built to carry nearly a tonne of weight especially in the drivers seat - most houses/buildings won't accomodate an 8' slab of flesh that size (sure they fit height wise in the room but not through doors or elevators and not on escalators).

If you do all these to a small extent (eg not all the time) the player won't feel forced into changing characters the other players will still get to do stuff and possibly the player will develop the persona of the character such that whilst he might in game terms be able to bruch off thor rounds it doesn't become the focus of your game (if it does then that player has won and ruined it for the rest of you - eg why are you still playing with him/her?)
blakkie
QUOTE (OSUMacbeth)
At least by doing stun some folks might be able to drop him. Not if we use the half stun house rule, though. Suggestions?

Maybe don't use the 1/2 stun house rule, because it was ment to deal with people that wrapped themselves in massive amounts of armor?
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (prionic6)
I also think having close combat linked to agility is okay for some styles but for others strength would be the better choice. Maybe houserule it like this: If you take a specialisation in unarmed combat (like, say, "brawl") you can choose to have it linked to strenght instead of agility. Or even the other way around - normally linked to strength but certain styles link to agilty.

I think for the vast majority of styles strength is more appropriate. If strength was just the ability to lift something it wouldn't have any linked skills. Its also supposed to be your ability to use your body to its best advantage. Strength makes more sense for the close combat skill group, and its more balanced giving high strength races at least something they can be good at.

As is trolls can start out reasonably well because of the +4 body and strength. The strength mostly because there's no need to put any points it is now since it sucks as an attribute. And hey everyone needs a good body attribute.

But once your out of the starting gate there's no point for them. Where do they grow. They grow no where, the areas there supposed to be good at they wont be, they'll forever stay at there stating game mediocrity. But hey they can take a bullet really well, so um that counts for something. And hey they can run really fast and chase down those elves where they'll promptly get there butts handed to them.
Tal
So don't work with the stereotype. Try making oh, I don't know, a troll illusionist. Sure, a troll is a big hunk of meat. That doesn't automatically mean that they have to be a tank.
Feshy
QUOTE
One of my players is doing this...what do I do?


Ares squirt with narcojet? Most of the armor will be useless then. Still, combat sense and body will apply, so it'll only stun him a little. On the bright side, security forces armed with narcojet weapons are pretty plausible. Cuts down on liability, and you get prisoners to interrogate (much more fun than filling out paperwork for another "accidental death")

All I can say is that, unlike most RPG games where you might wander alone in dungeons for years, Shadowrunners don't exist in a vacuum. What happens when he gets a reputation for being "invincible?" Every two-bit wanna-be-somebody with a gun is going to show up to claim his title -- and always at inconvinient times. Meets with fixers will go south when some lunatic charges with his mono whip. Runs will fall appart when the local gang decides to make a name for itself while you're trying to sneak onto corp property. Assault-rifle carrying special ops wanna-be's will come through his window while he's trying to squeeze his bulk into a nice relaxing bath. And if he deals with ALL those threats without trouble? Well, turns out that special ops wanna-be was the nephew of a major corp executive, and the goon squad starts tailing him to learn his weaknesses. And they brought a mage with mind control. Let's hope Lone Star (tipped off by one of the gangers that managed to crawl away) gets him first with their ares squirt (with helecopter backup) ambush.

So there are still ways to challenge him, but unfortunately those ways can get VERY frustrating for the other players (who probably would much rather meet with the fixer, sneak into corp property, and take a bath without bullets flying). In my opinion, this sort of thing is a mess. I'm still hoping it doesn't show up in any of my games. I don't like that I have to hope players won't make a certain type of character.

Maybe his arm will get tired from rolling so many dice?
Phoniex
QUOTE (OSUMacbeth)

One of my players is doing this...what do I do? I don't know how to hurt him in any way other than magic. It seems safe to say he'll be immune to like 90% of the game content, and if I throw tougher things at him I'm likely to kill the group in the process of trying to challenge him. I'm actually beginning to think that the whole stun damage thing isn't so bad after all. At least by doing stun some folks might be able to drop him. Not if we use the half stun house rule, though. Suggestions?

OSUMacbeth

yeah stun damage will still rock him. Anything he has to resist with willpower instead of body. Ie stunbolt or manabolt. Narcojet i think is still body, but it would only be his natural body, no armour or bio/cyber, so it would not be that bad. Hell throw a neurostun gas grenade at him, its not like he has the agil to throw it back with all that in body.

I started a thread about what evil a troll could do in the attribute+skill system when unarmed is based off of strength. Its good that polearm wielding trolls are not rolling 20+ dice as starting characters. But at the same time, they now really are rather weak melee fighters. Yes the troll will do about 4 boxes of damage compared to the 2 boxes a human will, but that really is their only advantage. I kinda wish now that unarmed was still str based because the evil elf melee monster that does base 3 boxes of damage to you.. well its not nearly as scary as the troll. But now by the rules, elves are the kings of melee... and ranged combat.. and stealth.. and throwing(damn grenades KILL people now).. and just about everything else. Which is kinda sad, I like elves but i also like diversity. now every end badguy will basically need to be an elf to throughly outclass the runners. *blah*
prionic6
QUOTE (Phoniex)
now every end badguy will basically need to be an elf to throughly outclass the runners. *blah*

You can make them elf ork posers. Ork melee monsters. Done.
Modesitt
QUOTE
All I can say is that, unlike most RPG games where you might wander alone in dungeons for years, Shadowrunners don't exist in a vacuum. What happens when he gets a reputation for being "invincible?"


Thanks a lot asshole, you've undoubtably ruined Shadowrun for someone else too. My GM read that exact same advice and now we don't play Shadowrun anymore. We play Survival: the Dodging.

Despite our Notority, Public Awareness, and Street Cred all being 0, every single one of us is being targetted NON-STOP by other runners. Here's the list of runners on my team and why they can't ever get a moment of peace.

Street Samurai: His cyber and bioware is worth a small fortune, so he has people constantly trying to capture him and steal all of his cyberware. Highlights: Attempted electrocution in own bath tub, stimulants from the dealer were bad, car wired to lock and flood with knockout gas, elf poser in a strange red uniform grabbed his neck and acted surprised when he didn't immediately pass out, and human friend of elf poser tried to perform a two-handed kung-fu chop on his back and also acted surprised when he didn't immediately go down.

The Troll: Apparently, the fact that he has a high enough body to consistently shrug off assault rifle rounds has led to people viewing him as a living challenge, just as you suggested. His armor looks more like a rubberized mat with all the bumps in it. In fact, he does use an old piece of armor as a shower curtain these days. He's seriously considering becoming an anorexic in order to lose some Body. Highlights: SUDDENLY, NINJAS! and they started wailing away at him with katanas and shurikens, mage in a blimp using binoculars to heckle him with powerbolts, a crazy buff man wearing a black headband sprayed him while calling him Charlie, and a troupe of girl scouts tried to mob him.

The Face: Her Charisma of 9 has gotten around, so guys are always trying to rape her. She said something about wearing a new kind of tampon to try to cut down on rape attempts and maced me when I asked for details. Like the troll considering taking up anorexia, she's thinking she'll try to get ugly via plastic surgery and fat through diet and lack of exercise. Highlights: Guy becoming a chef in a restaurant she frequents for the sole purpose of spiking her food with roofies, drive by with a blow gun, dead cat left on her front porch that was actually a gas grenade, and guy diagnosing her with schizophrenia and trying to get her institutionalized so he can take advantage of her.

Technomancer: He sucks mechanically. I outclass him in every single possible way, so you'd think he would be safe. Nope. He has a seven in underwater basket weaving. You think YOUR spam problem is bad? HA! He is BOMBARDED by challenges from other underwater basket weavers to show at the pool for a weave off. He'd just tell them to go to hell...except that, mysteriously, he ALWAYS ends up getting some from a chick afterwards. So he always does it anyway. Highlights: Being challenged to perform eXTREME basket weaving in a pool hanging from a 20 story building that will drop to the ground below if he doesn't complete his basket in 10 minutes, being told that unless he can beat this guy at a Weave Off the local park will be demolished, having someone break his Weave Finger the day before the match and almost lose only to perform an astounding come back at the end, and creating the Ancient Sumatran Basket which hasn't been sucessfully created by anyone in the past century.

Hacker: And finally, me. Apparently, my aptitude with Cybercombat has led countless Hackers to try and prove that they can kick my ass in cybercombat. Not just hackers either, but technomancers and AI's too. My connections log reads like a Who's Who of hackers - Dodger, Fastjack, Leonardo...everyone who's anyone is taking a crack at me and it's starting to piss me off. I don't even get a chance to recuperate fully before out come the black hammers and black outs! Highlights: Deus knocking me out and changing my commlink's boot up screen to gay troll porn, three corporate deckers all connecting at once and politely waiting in line, technomancer sending a sprite every single day against me for the past week, and a dolphin technomancer taunting me over the fact that I couldn't hold my breath for more than three minutes.

As you can see, he's a very fair GM. After all, we're all SOMETHING special in our own way, so it's only fair that we all be targetted. We're mostly living off of the equipment of the people who attack us as our fame no longer allows us to run. Unfortunately, the asshole wont let the fact that we're the subject of non-stop assassination attempts actually have any of the game mechanical benefits Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness provide. When we asked if every other famous entity in the game is subjected to the same he said they also are.

I'm mystified as to the ecology of his world. More specifically, how there are so many people out there with the free time and inclination to constantly attempt hits on other people. You have to ask yourself why anyone would ever order a hit on someone famous when they can just create a gap in their security and let someone do the actual hit pro bono.

I'm beginning to suspect he's really just trying to get us to go play 2nd edition D&D again. According to him, it was the best version of D&D ever because you had so few options.
JÞrgen Hubert
QUOTE (Modesitt)
QUOTE
All I can say is that, unlike most RPG games where you might wander alone in dungeons for years, Shadowrunners don't exist in a vacuum. What happens when he gets a reputation for being "invincible?"


Thanks a lot asshole, you've undoubtably ruined Shadowrun for someone else too. My GM read that exact same advice and now we don't play Shadowrun anymore. We play Survival: the Dodging.

[snip]

If all of this is true, the only solution I can see is to take your GM out of the back door and put him out of his misery.

Upstart challengers every few sessions or so are one thing. Constant harrassment like this is way out of line. Especially what happens to the Face - a high Charisma does not neccessary mean super-star looks, but the ability to talk other people into doing your bidding!

Isn't anyone else in your group interested in running Shadowrun?
Phoniex
I'm sorry.. but you really do have to be a bad roleplaying PC to be a elf posing as an orc. I mean it will NEVER happen in the reality that is Shadowrun. I mean you lose your elevated status of being an elf.. to go to being the most racially attacked race in the game. To put it in perspective today *sorry this next is clearly my personal opinion, i think its true, but it is also a rather hot topic* Why would a white christian american pose as a muslin arab in the United States? How well could he do it? Its just not socially logical in any way.

Now back to the game mechanics. Even the orc posing elf would lack the width and thickness to be a truly imposing foe, simply because of the racial attributes maximums that make it such a great fighter. Even if an elf maxes his physical attributes and adds cyber and bioware, he still won't be as imposing (lookwise, of course gamestat wise they are the evil) as the troll, let alone a max body/str orc.

Starting to seriously consider going back to 3rd edition on deciding what stats are linked to what attribute. It did kinda feel right that you needed to be a troll to use heavy weapons as well. But, rolling 5+ base dice because of attribute, might be far too much death.
Phoniex
LOL @ Modesitt. I want your GM, he is fun smile.gif I have not laughed that hard on dumpshock since the dropbear thread wink.gif

But how does the technomancer stay underwater long enough to weave the basket? spin.gif
JÞrgen Hubert
QUOTE (Phoniex)
I'm sorry.. but you really do have to be a bad roleplaying PC to be a elf posing as an orc.  I mean it will NEVER happen in the reality that is Shadowrun.  I mean you lose your elevated status of being an elf.. to go to being the most racially attacked race in the game.  To put it in perspective today *sorry this next is clearly my personal opinion, i think its true, but it is also a rather hot topic* Why would a white christian american pose as a muslin arab in the United States?  How well could he do it?  Its just not socially logical in any way.

Well, quite a few white Americans from Christian backgrounds might convert to Islam out of rebellion against their parents, even if they might not consciously admit it to themselves.

And ork posers don't make much logical sense on the surface... but then again, neither does any other novel fad. The "new" orc language is currently all the rage in the music business, and anything orcish is currently seen as really edgy, rebellious, and "underground" (if you will pardon the pun). Plus it's a great way to shock your parents ("Hi, mom! I'm an orc now!"), which is the most important point in the eyes of many teenagers...

And of course, there is a huge marketing machine involved in pushing anything orcish (whether "authentic" or not) - all of this means big bucks for the music and trideo industry. It probably won't last long (in fact, by 2070 it probably has gone "mainstream"), but they will exploit it for all that it's worth in the meantime.

And this is why I think orc posers are a cool addition to the setting..
Suicide King
Modesitt - Why on earth are you blaming Feshy for you gm being an idiot? Blaming his advice, or the same advice from others, is like...

Being angry at someone telling your friend to not drive to fast. Which then results in him always driving at 10 km/h, even on the highway.

Why don't you guys just tell him that you're tired of that kind of crap, if he refuses to change, then stop playing with him or have someone else be the gm. No roleplaying is by far better than bad roleplaying, imho.
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
Trolls what are they good for?

unh! absolutely nothin'!

Say it again! biggrin.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (mfb @ Sep 6 2005, 05:39 AM)
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
Trolls what are they good for?

unh! absolutely nothin'!

Say it again! biggrin.gif

waahoo waahoo wahooo oo
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Phoniex)
I'm sorry.. but you really do have to be a bad roleplaying PC to be a elf posing as an orc. I mean it will NEVER happen in the reality that is Shadowrun. I mean you lose your elevated status of being an elf.. to go to being the most racially attacked race in the game.

never read the description from Roweena the Elf rigger in SR3, did you... Some elves HATE being elves BECAUSE of the elevated status... imagine resteraunts refusing to sell you a streak because your "precious elven lips shouldn't be soiled with the touch of meat"

Suddenly Orkdom doesn't look so bad especially as the ork rapper movement makes being an Ork cool

SO are we getting ork poser versions of Vanilla Ice and Eminem soon?
Cain
QUOTE
I'm sorry.. but you really do have to be a bad roleplaying PC to be a elf posing as an orc. I mean it will NEVER happen in the reality that is Shadowrun. I mean you lose your elevated status of being an elf.. to go to being the most racially attacked race in the game

Ummm... you are aware that there's *plenty* of rich white boys who actively emulate poor black thugs? And this isn't a new thing by a big margin, either-- Blaxploitation goes back to the mid-sixties.
mintcar
QUOTE (Phoniex @ Sep 6 2005, 05:06 AM)
QUOTE (OSUMacbeth @ Sep 6 2005, 02:40 AM)

One of my players is doing this...what do I do? I don't know how to hurt him in any way other than magic. It seems safe to say he'll be immune to like 90% of the game content, and if I throw tougher things at him I'm likely to kill the group in the process of trying to challenge him. I'm actually beginning to think that the whole stun damage thing isn't so bad after all. At least by doing stun some folks might be able to drop him. Not if we use the half stun house rule, though. Suggestions?

OSUMacbeth

yeah stun damage will still rock him. Anything he has to resist with willpower instead of body. Ie stunbolt or manabolt. Narcojet i think is still body, but it would only be his natural body, no armour or bio/cyber, so it would not be that bad. Hell throw a neurostun gas grenade at him, its not like he has the agil to throw it back with all that in body.

I started a thread about what evil a troll could do in the attribute+skill system when unarmed is based off of strength. Its good that polearm wielding trolls are not rolling 20+ dice as starting characters. But at the same time, they now really are rather weak melee fighters. Yes the troll will do about 4 boxes of damage compared to the 2 boxes a human will, but that really is their only advantage. I kinda wish now that unarmed was still str based because the evil elf melee monster that does base 3 boxes of damage to you.. well its not nearly as scary as the troll. But now by the rules, elves are the kings of melee... and ranged combat.. and stealth.. and throwing(damn grenades KILL people now).. and just about everything else. Which is kinda sad, I like elves but i also like diversity. now every end badguy will basically need to be an elf to throughly outclass the runners. *blah*

Have you read the subduing combat rules?

You want a truely fearsome opponent to thuroughly outclass your runners? Try a monster cyberfreak troll ganger with 7 unarmed combat (+2 wrestling) skill and an augumented strength of 15 and augumented agility of 8 and maxed out body too. He may not be able to outclass your elf adept player in straight up melee combat. He may in fact be the one thatīs outclassed by far. But heīll survive long enough to land one good unarmed attack with a few attempts. When the monster troll ganger connects his stranglehold on the poor elf adeptīs throat, godlike agility wont save him. The test to break free is strength+unarmed combat. If it fails, the trollīs next action will be to automaticly inflict 15 boxes of damage (resisted as normal though) on that fragile elfneck. Itīll snap like a twig (or rather, the elf will pass out and then the troll will snap the neck, or stomp a hole in the chest, or something equaly gruesome).

(yes I know the adept will break free easy if heīs speced towards unarmed combat, but what if itīs a sword adept?)
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Phoniex @ Sep 6 2005, 05:06 AM)
I started a thread about what evil a troll could do in the attribute+skill system when unarmed is based off of strength.  Its good that polearm wielding trolls are not rolling 20+ dice as starting characters.  But at the same time, they now really are rather weak melee fighters.  Yes the troll will do about 4 boxes of damage compared to the 2 boxes a human will, but that really is their only advantage.  I kinda wish now that unarmed was still str based because the evil elf melee monster that does base 3 boxes of damage to you.. well its not nearly as scary as the troll.  But now by the rules, elves are the kings of melee... and ranged combat.. and stealth.. and throwing(damn grenades KILL people now).. and just about everything else.  Which is kinda sad, I like elves but i also like diversity.  now every end badguy will basically need to be an elf to throughly outclass the runners. *blah*

I'd much rather have trolls roll 20+ dice out of the box in one area of combat than have elves roll 11+ or 13+(with exceptional attribute) dice in everything in existence combat, stealth, ninja related with just a 1 in skill. Sure human and orcs can get to 10+ or 11+ dice easily enough, but with agility covering everything you're right the only diversity will be elf diversity.

Sure you can play against type and be a competent troll spellcaster at least in the short run, but when you do play to type you should get an advantage not a penalty for it. And when playing a hand to hand combat master you'll be running into the 5 natural stat max in agility if not at character creation really freakin quickly after it.
blakkie
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
And when playing a hand to hand combat master you'll be running into the 5 natural stat max in agility if not at character creation really freakin quickly after it.

...which is more-or-less balanced by the +1 Reach. The Reach even gives you a better shot at deciding how the penalites work.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Sep 6 2005, 11:32 AM)
And when playing a hand to hand combat master you'll be running into the 5 natural stat max in agility if not at character creation really freakin quickly after it.

...which is more-or-less balanced by the +1 Reach. The Reach even gives you a better shot at deciding how the penalites work.

If your augmented max was a static number over your unaugmented then yeah sure it would. But since its 1.5 times, that means trolls get the low cap of 7 dice after cyber or magic. Humans/orcs/dwarves get 9 dice and elves 10. 10 dice is a 3 dice swing and a 1 reach doesn't come close to matching that. So again for me, you might start out semi competent as a troll, no where near elf min max standards but competent. But once you start growing and expanding and hit your unaugmented limit and now need augementations to improve, they suck in comparison.

If this was one area it wouldn't be a big deal, but agility covers every area of combat except dodge, and it covers stealth, gymnastics and probably some stuff I'm forgetting. And with penalties in intuition, logic, and charisma and benefits in strength and body it would be nice if they were actually better at least in one aspect of combat.

If they had put close combat under strength then trolls would have a potential 6 die swing over elves and humans in one area of combat. Vs trolls being 3 die weaker than elves in every offensive act of combat. Somehow I find less problems in the 6 die swing in one area.
blakkie
Don't you round up to to 8 max for Trolls?
mintcar
nope
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