 Trolls what are they good for? |
  |
 Sep 6 2005, 01:23 AM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Mr. Quote-function  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376  |
With the little Problem that the metavariant "Satyr" already possessing "Satyr Legs", thus no further SURGE possibility in that direction ... and Kid Stealth Legs replacing those entirely, thus simply exchanging one positive mod by an identical other one => Doesn't work. Night One (+2 Quick *or rather +3 at maximum natural attribute*), Ghoul (longer legs, Running multiplier +1), Satyr Legs SURGE (structural reformation of those longer legs, Running mulitiplier again +1), horse shaman (movement power as metamagic) was / is the best combo for Overall Quickness * 5 (total running multiplier) * 5 (Essence for movement power) = QUI * 25. An no, no going Ghoul won't make it better, since the total running multiplier will drop to 4 while the Essence for movement will go to 6, but 4*6 = 24 < 25 ... |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:40 AM
Post
#27
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
One of my players is doing this...what do I do? I don't know how to hurt him in any way other than magic. It seems safe to say he'll be immune to like 90% of the game content, and if I throw tougher things at him I'm likely to kill the group in the process of trying to challenge him. I'm actually beginning to think that the whole stun damage thing isn't so bad after all. At least by doing stun some folks might be able to drop him. Not if we use the half stun house rule, though. Suggestions? OSUMacbeth |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 04:06 AM
Post
#28
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 2-September 05 Member No.: 7,673 |
Ok so 3 options are: 1) Restrain or Neutralise him - as in physically (bola, lasso, net-gun etc) 2) Magic him obtusely - chaotic world is still around as a spell isn't it or maybe agony 3) Use the Troll inherant disadvantage against him - can't get into meets because of his size and weight (no mention has been made of Metahuman weights in SR4 - have they finally fixed them - if not read http://tss.dumpshock.com/html/tss-13/index.htm and try extrapolating it to 4th ed) Basically if you neutralise his advantages (by not allowing him the opportunity to use them or the situation to use them) or providing him with no useful input (by moving the game away from his character) or highlighting his disadvantages. Trolls and their metavariants don't get hampered enough by their forms - A friend and I made identical twin trolls in 3rd Ed. with the highest bodies we could get as an experiement and we then went around the local area working out where they would have problems and there are so many it is not funny - most cars aren't built to carry nearly a tonne of weight especially in the drivers seat - most houses/buildings won't accomodate an 8' slab of flesh that size (sure they fit height wise in the room but not through doors or elevators and not on escalators). If you do all these to a small extent (eg not all the time) the player won't feel forced into changing characters the other players will still get to do stuff and possibly the player will develop the persona of the character such that whilst he might in game terms be able to bruch off thor rounds it doesn't become the focus of your game (if it does then that player has won and ruined it for the rest of you - eg why are you still playing with him/her?) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 04:10 AM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Maybe don't use the 1/2 stun house rule, because it was ment to deal with people that wrapped themselves in massive amounts of armor? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:01 AM
Post
#30
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
I think for the vast majority of styles strength is more appropriate. If strength was just the ability to lift something it wouldn't have any linked skills. Its also supposed to be your ability to use your body to its best advantage. Strength makes more sense for the close combat skill group, and its more balanced giving high strength races at least something they can be good at. As is trolls can start out reasonably well because of the +4 body and strength. The strength mostly because there's no need to put any points it is now since it sucks as an attribute. And hey everyone needs a good body attribute. But once your out of the starting gate there's no point for them. Where do they grow. They grow no where, the areas there supposed to be good at they wont be, they'll forever stay at there stating game mediocrity. But hey they can take a bullet really well, so um that counts for something. And hey they can run really fast and chase down those elves where they'll promptly get there butts handed to them. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:38 AM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
So don't work with the stereotype. Try making oh, I don't know, a troll illusionist. Sure, a troll is a big hunk of meat. That doesn't automatically mean that they have to be a tank.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 09:07 AM
Post
#32
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 715 Joined: 4-September 05 From: Metaplane GEPLK136 (The one with the lizards. You remember the lizards, don't you?) Member No.: 7,684 |
Ares squirt with narcojet? Most of the armor will be useless then. Still, combat sense and body will apply, so it'll only stun him a little. On the bright side, security forces armed with narcojet weapons are pretty plausible. Cuts down on liability, and you get prisoners to interrogate (much more fun than filling out paperwork for another "accidental death") All I can say is that, unlike most RPG games where you might wander alone in dungeons for years, Shadowrunners don't exist in a vacuum. What happens when he gets a reputation for being "invincible?" Every two-bit wanna-be-somebody with a gun is going to show up to claim his title -- and always at inconvinient times. Meets with fixers will go south when some lunatic charges with his mono whip. Runs will fall appart when the local gang decides to make a name for itself while you're trying to sneak onto corp property. Assault-rifle carrying special ops wanna-be's will come through his window while he's trying to squeeze his bulk into a nice relaxing bath. And if he deals with ALL those threats without trouble? Well, turns out that special ops wanna-be was the nephew of a major corp executive, and the goon squad starts tailing him to learn his weaknesses. And they brought a mage with mind control. Let's hope Lone Star (tipped off by one of the gangers that managed to crawl away) gets him first with their ares squirt (with helecopter backup) ambush. So there are still ways to challenge him, but unfortunately those ways can get VERY frustrating for the other players (who probably would much rather meet with the fixer, sneak into corp property, and take a bath without bullets flying). In my opinion, this sort of thing is a mess. I'm still hoping it doesn't show up in any of my games. I don't like that I have to hope players won't make a certain type of character. Maybe his arm will get tired from rolling so many dice? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:06 AM
Post
#33
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
yeah stun damage will still rock him. Anything he has to resist with willpower instead of body. Ie stunbolt or manabolt. Narcojet i think is still body, but it would only be his natural body, no armour or bio/cyber, so it would not be that bad. Hell throw a neurostun gas grenade at him, its not like he has the agil to throw it back with all that in body. I started a thread about what evil a troll could do in the attribute+skill system when unarmed is based off of strength. Its good that polearm wielding trolls are not rolling 20+ dice as starting characters. But at the same time, they now really are rather weak melee fighters. Yes the troll will do about 4 boxes of damage compared to the 2 boxes a human will, but that really is their only advantage. I kinda wish now that unarmed was still str based because the evil elf melee monster that does base 3 boxes of damage to you.. well its not nearly as scary as the troll. But now by the rules, elves are the kings of melee... and ranged combat.. and stealth.. and throwing(damn grenades KILL people now).. and just about everything else. Which is kinda sad, I like elves but i also like diversity. now every end badguy will basically need to be an elf to throughly outclass the runners. *blah* |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:21 AM
Post
#34
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
You can make them elf ork posers. Ork melee monsters. Done. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:28 AM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Thanks a lot asshole, you've undoubtably ruined Shadowrun for someone else too. My GM read that exact same advice and now we don't play Shadowrun anymore. We play Survival: the Dodging. Despite our Notority, Public Awareness, and Street Cred all being 0, every single one of us is being targetted NON-STOP by other runners. Here's the list of runners on my team and why they can't ever get a moment of peace. Street Samurai: His cyber and bioware is worth a small fortune, so he has people constantly trying to capture him and steal all of his cyberware. Highlights: Attempted electrocution in own bath tub, stimulants from the dealer were bad, car wired to lock and flood with knockout gas, elf poser in a strange red uniform grabbed his neck and acted surprised when he didn't immediately pass out, and human friend of elf poser tried to perform a two-handed kung-fu chop on his back and also acted surprised when he didn't immediately go down. The Troll: Apparently, the fact that he has a high enough body to consistently shrug off assault rifle rounds has led to people viewing him as a living challenge, just as you suggested. His armor looks more like a rubberized mat with all the bumps in it. In fact, he does use an old piece of armor as a shower curtain these days. He's seriously considering becoming an anorexic in order to lose some Body. Highlights: SUDDENLY, NINJAS! and they started wailing away at him with katanas and shurikens, mage in a blimp using binoculars to heckle him with powerbolts, a crazy buff man wearing a black headband sprayed him while calling him Charlie, and a troupe of girl scouts tried to mob him. The Face: Her Charisma of 9 has gotten around, so guys are always trying to rape her. She said something about wearing a new kind of tampon to try to cut down on rape attempts and maced me when I asked for details. Like the troll considering taking up anorexia, she's thinking she'll try to get ugly via plastic surgery and fat through diet and lack of exercise. Highlights: Guy becoming a chef in a restaurant she frequents for the sole purpose of spiking her food with roofies, drive by with a blow gun, dead cat left on her front porch that was actually a gas grenade, and guy diagnosing her with schizophrenia and trying to get her institutionalized so he can take advantage of her. Technomancer: He sucks mechanically. I outclass him in every single possible way, so you'd think he would be safe. Nope. He has a seven in underwater basket weaving. You think YOUR spam problem is bad? HA! He is BOMBARDED by challenges from other underwater basket weavers to show at the pool for a weave off. He'd just tell them to go to hell...except that, mysteriously, he ALWAYS ends up getting some from a chick afterwards. So he always does it anyway. Highlights: Being challenged to perform eXTREME basket weaving in a pool hanging from a 20 story building that will drop to the ground below if he doesn't complete his basket in 10 minutes, being told that unless he can beat this guy at a Weave Off the local park will be demolished, having someone break his Weave Finger the day before the match and almost lose only to perform an astounding come back at the end, and creating the Ancient Sumatran Basket which hasn't been sucessfully created by anyone in the past century. Hacker: And finally, me. Apparently, my aptitude with Cybercombat has led countless Hackers to try and prove that they can kick my ass in cybercombat. Not just hackers either, but technomancers and AI's too. My connections log reads like a Who's Who of hackers - Dodger, Fastjack, Leonardo...everyone who's anyone is taking a crack at me and it's starting to piss me off. I don't even get a chance to recuperate fully before out come the black hammers and black outs! Highlights: Deus knocking me out and changing my commlink's boot up screen to gay troll porn, three corporate deckers all connecting at once and politely waiting in line, technomancer sending a sprite every single day against me for the past week, and a dolphin technomancer taunting me over the fact that I couldn't hold my breath for more than three minutes. As you can see, he's a very fair GM. After all, we're all SOMETHING special in our own way, so it's only fair that we all be targetted. We're mostly living off of the equipment of the people who attack us as our fame no longer allows us to run. Unfortunately, the asshole wont let the fact that we're the subject of non-stop assassination attempts actually have any of the game mechanical benefits Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness provide. When we asked if every other famous entity in the game is subjected to the same he said they also are. I'm mystified as to the ecology of his world. More specifically, how there are so many people out there with the free time and inclination to constantly attempt hits on other people. You have to ask yourself why anyone would ever order a hit on someone famous when they can just create a gap in their security and let someone do the actual hit pro bono. I'm beginning to suspect he's really just trying to get us to go play 2nd edition D&D again. According to him, it was the best version of D&D ever because you had so few options. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:48 AM
Post
#36
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,453 |
[snip] If all of this is true, the only solution I can see is to take your GM out of the back door and put him out of his misery. Upstart challengers every few sessions or so are one thing. Constant harrassment like this is way out of line. Especially what happens to the Face - a high Charisma does not neccessary mean super-star looks, but the ability to talk other people into doing your bidding! Isn't anyone else in your group interested in running Shadowrun? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:51 AM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
I'm sorry.. but you really do have to be a bad roleplaying PC to be a elf posing as an orc. I mean it will NEVER happen in the reality that is Shadowrun. I mean you lose your elevated status of being an elf.. to go to being the most racially attacked race in the game. To put it in perspective today *sorry this next is clearly my personal opinion, i think its true, but it is also a rather hot topic* Why would a white christian american pose as a muslin arab in the United States? How well could he do it? Its just not socially logical in any way.
Now back to the game mechanics. Even the orc posing elf would lack the width and thickness to be a truly imposing foe, simply because of the racial attributes maximums that make it such a great fighter. Even if an elf maxes his physical attributes and adds cyber and bioware, he still won't be as imposing (lookwise, of course gamestat wise they are the evil) as the troll, let alone a max body/str orc. Starting to seriously consider going back to 3rd edition on deciding what stats are linked to what attribute. It did kinda feel right that you needed to be a troll to use heavy weapons as well. But, rolling 5+ base dice because of attribute, might be far too much death. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:57 AM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
LOL @ Modesitt. I want your GM, he is fun :) I have not laughed that hard on dumpshock since the dropbear thread ;)
But how does the technomancer stay underwater long enough to weave the basket? :spin: |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 11:05 AM
Post
#39
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,453 |
Well, quite a few white Americans from Christian backgrounds might convert to Islam out of rebellion against their parents, even if they might not consciously admit it to themselves. And ork posers don't make much logical sense on the surface... but then again, neither does any other novel fad. The "new" orc language is currently all the rage in the music business, and anything orcish is currently seen as really edgy, rebellious, and "underground" (if you will pardon the pun). Plus it's a great way to shock your parents ("Hi, mom! I'm an orc now!"), which is the most important point in the eyes of many teenagers... And of course, there is a huge marketing machine involved in pushing anything orcish (whether "authentic" or not) - all of this means big bucks for the music and trideo industry. It probably won't last long (in fact, by 2070 it probably has gone "mainstream"), but they will exploit it for all that it's worth in the meantime. And this is why I think orc posers are a cool addition to the setting.. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 11:22 AM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 13-September 04 Member No.: 6,656 |
Modesitt - Why on earth are you blaming Feshy for you gm being an idiot? Blaming his advice, or the same advice from others, is like...
Being angry at someone telling your friend to not drive to fast. Which then results in him always driving at 10 km/h, even on the highway. Why don't you guys just tell him that you're tired of that kind of crap, if he refuses to change, then stop playing with him or have someone else be the gm. No roleplaying is by far better than bad roleplaying, imho. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:34 PM
Post
#41
|
|||||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Say it again! :D |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:36 PM
Post
#42
|
|||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
waahoo waahoo wahooo oo |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 03:28 PM
Post
#43
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
never read the description from Roweena the Elf rigger in SR3, did you... Some elves HATE being elves BECAUSE of the elevated status... imagine resteraunts refusing to sell you a streak because your "precious elven lips shouldn't be soiled with the touch of meat" Suddenly Orkdom doesn't look so bad especially as the ork rapper movement makes being an Ork cool SO are we getting ork poser versions of Vanilla Ice and Eminem soon? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 03:58 PM
Post
#44
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Ummm... you are aware that there's *plenty* of rich white boys who actively emulate poor black thugs? And this isn't a new thing by a big margin, either-- Blaxploitation goes back to the mid-sixties. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 04:19 PM
Post
#45
|
|||||
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Have you read the subduing combat rules? You want a truely fearsome opponent to thuroughly outclass your runners? Try a monster cyberfreak troll ganger with 7 unarmed combat (+2 wrestling) skill and an augumented strength of 15 and augumented agility of 8 and maxed out body too. He may not be able to outclass your elf adept player in straight up melee combat. He may in fact be the one thatīs outclassed by far. But heīll survive long enough to land one good unarmed attack with a few attempts. When the monster troll ganger connects his stranglehold on the poor elf adeptīs throat, godlike agility wont save him. The test to break free is strength+unarmed combat. If it fails, the trollīs next action will be to automaticly inflict 15 boxes of damage (resisted as normal though) on that fragile elfneck. Itīll snap like a twig (or rather, the elf will pass out and then the troll will snap the neck, or stomp a hole in the chest, or something equaly gruesome). (yes I know the adept will break free easy if heīs speced towards unarmed combat, but what if itīs a sword adept?) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 05:32 PM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
I'd much rather have trolls roll 20+ dice out of the box in one area of combat than have elves roll 11+ or 13+(with exceptional attribute) dice in everything in existence combat, stealth, ninja related with just a 1 in skill. Sure human and orcs can get to 10+ or 11+ dice easily enough, but with agility covering everything you're right the only diversity will be elf diversity. Sure you can play against type and be a competent troll spellcaster at least in the short run, but when you do play to type you should get an advantage not a penalty for it. And when playing a hand to hand combat master you'll be running into the 5 natural stat max in agility if not at character creation really freakin quickly after it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:16 PM
Post
#47
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
...which is more-or-less balanced by the +1 Reach. The Reach even gives you a better shot at deciding how the penalites work. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:29 PM
Post
#48
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
If your augmented max was a static number over your unaugmented then yeah sure it would. But since its 1.5 times, that means trolls get the low cap of 7 dice after cyber or magic. Humans/orcs/dwarves get 9 dice and elves 10. 10 dice is a 3 dice swing and a 1 reach doesn't come close to matching that. So again for me, you might start out semi competent as a troll, no where near elf min max standards but competent. But once you start growing and expanding and hit your unaugmented limit and now need augementations to improve, they suck in comparison. If this was one area it wouldn't be a big deal, but agility covers every area of combat except dodge, and it covers stealth, gymnastics and probably some stuff I'm forgetting. And with penalties in intuition, logic, and charisma and benefits in strength and body it would be nice if they were actually better at least in one aspect of combat. If they had put close combat under strength then trolls would have a potential 6 die swing over elves and humans in one area of combat. Vs trolls being 3 die weaker than elves in every offensive act of combat. Somehow I find less problems in the 6 die swing in one area. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:39 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Don't you round up to to 8 max for Trolls?
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:47 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
nope
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 11th September 2025 - 09:26 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.