Advancing a physad in 4e Options

[Chuckg]

As near as I can figure it -- you have to pay the karma to initiate, then you have to pay the karma to raise the magic attribute to the new max, and only then can you turn that new power point into new adept powers, yes?

Meanwhile, the cyber- or bio-augmented guys merely have to -- score more nuyen and visit the doc. While all of their karma goes into buffing attributes, skills, etc.

Would this not result in a gap between the augmented warriors and the mystic warriors?

[Talia Invierno]

Short-term, yes. Medium to long-term: the mystic warrior has no cap on versatility (magic is not a capped attribute, yes?), while the augmented warrior hits the essence barrier.

[Mark]

Depends on what enhancements they're getting really, especially bioware ones.

And magic is capped actually, at 6+initiation grade, functionally.

[Whizbang]

And with the higher of bioware or cyberware essence loss being halved before added to the other value...

[Shayd]

The answer is no. This is, in fact, my largest problem with SR4.

The *only* unlimited stats in the game as written are Magic and Resonance. Samurai and others are limited by Essence or skill/attribute max augmented capabilities, but primarily (in terms of gilettes vs. others) by Essence. There's only so much that a cyber-based character can get out of deltaware, if the GM allows deltaware, etcetera etcetera. Consider also availability times, and (if added, which I hope they don't) surgical costs.

Meanwhile:

Initiate Grade 1--13 karma
Magic to 7--21 karma
Initiate Grade 2--16 karma
Magic to 8--24 karma
Initiate Grade 3--19 karma
Magic to 9--27 karma
Initiate Grade 4--22 karma
Magic to 10--30 karma
Initiate Grade 5--25 karma
Magic to 11--33 karma
Initiate Grade 6--28 karma
Magic to 12--36 karma

Total karma required to gain Init 6/Magic 12: 294 karma

Let's assume a per-session rate of karma gain of 5. 300 karma / 5 = 60 sessions.
Let's assume a per-session rate of nuyen gain of 5,000 Y. 5000*60=300,000 -Y-

While 300,000 -Y- will go farther in SR4 than in SR3, there are a few key points to be made:

* The adept/mage will still receive all of that money. While they won't spend it on cyberware, they can still purchase a number of excellent pieces of equipment--and with the number of formerly-better-as-cyber things which are now equal when they aren't cyber, this is somewhat significant. There's also the element of foci.

* The samurai will still receive the karma. However, the skill-cap-at-6 (barring specializations) is in fact a hard limit, along with the essence-cap-at-6. I haven't done the math to sort out the amount of beta/deltaware a PC can gain at 300,000 =Y=, but I'll wager that it won't equal the benefits of, say, 12 points of magic, overall.

Ultimately, the emphasis on karma-based lifeforms vs. nuyen-based lifeforms (characters whose primary advancement comes from karma, such as mages, as opposed to samurai, which comes from nuyen) still exists. It isn't as bad as it was in SR3, largely due to the fact that things cost a wholllle lot less nuyen-wise and magic costs more to upgrade, but in long-term campaigns, having a samurai with a bunch of skills at 6 isn't going to compare real well to your spellcaster who can whip out a 12 Magic + 7 Spellcasting (w/aptitude)= 19 die manabolt vs. your 9 Willpower + 6 Counterspelling (from your friendly mage) = 15 die defense.

My current thinking vis a vis proposed changes lies along the idea of making Edge something that is open-ended and costs roughly the same as magic+initiation to raise, but only for non-magical characters. I don't really like this solution, however, so I'm still thinkin about it.

[Mark]

[Talia Invierno]

[Shayd]

[Clyde]

How much karma does it cost to hit the cap? I mean, the Street Samurai should start with a higher than average Agility and Reaction than most. After that, cranking up Firearms Skill Group and Close Combat Skill Group will cost a fair amount. At that point, you're down to nuyen, with karma just rounding out the edges on "nonessential" stats like Body, Strength, Intuition and Willpower.

Of course, I've seen few enough games get past the 150 karma point so I don't it's much of an issue in practice.

[hahnsoo]

Just a note: Enhanced Articulation no longer gives +1 die for Combat skills, only Physical Skills linked to a Physical Attribute. Sorry.

[Ryu]

It was consensus that adept=specialist and sam=generalist, was it not?


If you spend your first 6 pts of magic on the right combination of powers (improved ability whatever + some others), would investing heavily into some more powers really be efficient? At 34kp for the seventh point, that power had rather be important. One might consider walking that route late in life.

Now it seems to be that the samurai gets a diverse set of advantages from his ware, while the adept gets powers that can´t be emulated by cyber. As for advancing said adept, why not in skills rather than power points? Even if you are weaker than the samurai in those areas, you still are superior in your choosen speciality.


On the comparison: That shouldn´t be done by maximum dice / skill alone. Diminishing returns and all that. A runner needs more than one skill to excel.

[Shayd]

Well, the original query was regarding a gap between augmented warriors (samurai) and mystic warriors (adepts). While I personally am a fan of diversity, extreme cases (comparing maximal combat efficiency, for example) tend to highlight the differences when it comes to a perceived "gap".

Hahnsoo is right (*blush*), I keep forgetting that they actually *fixed* enhanced articulation to not be the must-have uber efficient piece of bioware that it once was.

Extreme comparisons aside, in a general tabletop game I think the two types are fairly balanced. While an Adept does not *have* to be a specialist, the major points of difference in Adept powers vs. a cyberware route does point in that direction. Improved Ability on the offensive side and Mystic Armor/Spell Resistance on the defensive side represent the two areas where an Adept's powers truly differentiate them from what's available cybernetically/bioware-wise. Most everything else if not everything else that the Adept can do via its power selections can be duplicated by cyber/bioware. Thus, when speaking of a gap between the two, it's (in my opinion) important to consider this point of differentiation.

Of course, there are inherent aspects of the Adept that the Samurai can't match--ability versus astral forms via weapon foci, for example; and the benefits in terms of being able to avoid MADs and other 'ware-detecting defenses (which makes Masking an extremely good choice for the first metamagic power as an Adept).

When comparing the two, however, it's those three abilities above that truly make the difference; they provide excellent benefits that aren't duplicable by any other means.