Chuckg
Sep 6 2005, 12:13 AM
As near as I can figure it -- you have to pay the karma to initiate, then you have to pay the karma to raise the magic attribute to the new max, and only then can you turn that new power point into new adept powers, yes?
Meanwhile, the cyber- or bio-augmented guys merely have to -- score more nuyen and visit the doc. While all of their karma goes into buffing attributes, skills, etc.
Would this not result in a gap between the augmented warriors and the mystic warriors?
Talia Invierno
Sep 6 2005, 12:37 AM
Short-term, yes. Medium to long-term: the mystic warrior has no cap on versatility (magic is not a capped attribute, yes?), while the augmented warrior hits the essence barrier.
Mark
Sep 6 2005, 12:39 AM
Depends on what enhancements they're getting really, especially bioware ones.
And magic is capped actually, at 6+initiation grade, functionally.
Whizbang
Sep 6 2005, 12:41 AM
And with the higher of bioware or cyberware essence loss being halved before added to the other value...
Shayd
Sep 6 2005, 12:45 AM
The answer is no. This is, in fact, my largest problem with SR4.
The *only* unlimited stats in the game as written are Magic and Resonance. Samurai and others are limited by Essence or skill/attribute max augmented capabilities, but primarily (in terms of gilettes vs. others) by Essence. There's only so much that a cyber-based character can get out of deltaware, if the GM allows deltaware, etcetera etcetera. Consider also availability times, and (if added, which I hope they don't) surgical costs.
Meanwhile:
Initiate Grade 1--13 karma
Magic to 7--21 karma
Initiate Grade 2--16 karma
Magic to 8--24 karma
Initiate Grade 3--19 karma
Magic to 9--27 karma
Initiate Grade 4--22 karma
Magic to 10--30 karma
Initiate Grade 5--25 karma
Magic to 11--33 karma
Initiate Grade 6--28 karma
Magic to 12--36 karma
Total karma required to gain Init 6/Magic 12: 294 karma
Let's assume a per-session rate of karma gain of 5. 300 karma / 5 = 60 sessions.
Let's assume a per-session rate of nuyen gain of 5,000 Y. 5000*60=300,000 -Y-
While 300,000 -Y- will go farther in SR4 than in SR3, there are a few key points to be made:
* The adept/mage will still receive all of that money. While they won't spend it on cyberware, they can still purchase a number of excellent pieces of equipment--and with the number of formerly-better-as-cyber things which are now equal when they aren't cyber, this is somewhat significant. There's also the element of foci.
* The samurai will still receive the karma. However, the skill-cap-at-6 (barring specializations) is in fact a hard limit, along with the essence-cap-at-6. I haven't done the math to sort out the amount of beta/deltaware a PC can gain at 300,000 =Y=, but I'll wager that it won't equal the benefits of, say, 12 points of magic, overall.
Ultimately, the emphasis on karma-based lifeforms vs. nuyen-based lifeforms (characters whose primary advancement comes from karma, such as mages, as opposed to samurai, which comes from nuyen) still exists. It isn't as bad as it was in SR3, largely due to the fact that things cost a wholllle lot less nuyen-wise and magic costs more to upgrade, but in long-term campaigns, having a samurai with a bunch of skills at 6 isn't going to compare real well to your spellcaster who can whip out a 12 Magic + 7 Spellcasting (w/aptitude)= 19 die manabolt vs. your 9 Willpower + 6 Counterspelling (from your friendly mage) = 15 die defense.
My current thinking vis a vis proposed changes lies along the idea of making Edge something that is open-ended and costs roughly the same as magic+initiation to raise, but only for non-magical characters. I don't really like this solution, however, so I'm still thinkin about it.
Mark
Sep 6 2005, 12:51 AM
| QUOTE |
| having a samurai with a bunch of skills at 6 isn't going to compare real well to your spellcaster who can whip out a 12 Magic + 7 Spellcasting (w/aptitude)= 19 die manabolt vs. your 9 Willpower + 6 Counterspelling (from your friendly mage) = 15 die defense. |
Which has what to do with Adepts?
Talia Invierno
Sep 6 2005, 01:54 AM
| QUOTE |
And magic is capped actually, at 6+initiation grade, functionally.
- Mark |
Which translates to an uncapped attribute: in the sense that one can always spend more karma to raise it (through unlimited initiation).
Shayd
Sep 6 2005, 02:41 AM
| QUOTE |
| Which has what to do with Adepts? |
Your point is taken, I didn't mean to hijack the thread entirely. Let's relate it to Adepts then.
12 points of magic for an Adept (and we're now assuming, by the by, that there's not going to be geasa, which I doubt) will give him a number of advantages achievable ~294 karma.
5 BP: Adept Quality
65 BP: Magic 6
200 BP: Attribute spending
30 BP: Elf
35 BP: Qualities (Adept, Excep Attrib, Aptitude)
total 335 BP, leaving 65 extra for skills, contacts, money
Improved Ability: Combat Skill
* base skill 6
* Aptitude quality to 7 (10 BP)
* Improved Ability to 7 costs (7*.5)=3.5 magic
Improved Physical Attribute: Agility
* base Agility 8 (w/BP, presumably)
* Exceptional Attribute quality Agility: (raisable to 11) (20 BP)
* Improved Physical Attribute: Agility to 11 (6 magic)
At 7.5 magic, your Adept can (in extreme minmax mode) generate 11 + 7 + 7 = 23 dice for a Combat skill test. Let's assume for the nonce that he doesn't blow all his karma/magic in this way, and takes a 3-point detour into Imp Reflexes 2, so we'll give him these stats when he has 10.5 Magic (11 Magic, actually, which would be init grade 5 at 230 karma points spent on magic).
Here's somewhere that the Adept is actually more deadly than our previous example of the mage: unlike with spells, combat skills don't have a hard cap on number of hits. A spell can only generate a max hits equal to its force. The Adept could (though it would be difficult to extremely rare without the use of Edge) generate many, many hits with his 23 dice.
Comparatively, your Samurai (also presumptively an Elf) might garner a 7 combat skill + 11 agility + 2 from enhanced articulation and reflex recorder for 20 dice. He'd need to devote a bunch of money and essence to do so, especially in finding the right combination of 'ware (8 agi base + 3 from muscle toner 3, would cost .6 base essence (not assuming cultured) and 24K =Y= available outside of chargen), enhanced articulaton would be another .3/30K =Y=, reflex recorder would be .1/10K =Y=). The total essence expense would be 1.0, the cost would be 64K =Y=, and he'd have to wait till after chargen to get it. Adding the Wired-2 to this to compare to our above character, you've got a total cost of 3.5 essence and 94K =Y= versus 230 karma.
The Adept winds up with 3 more dice; the Samurai winds up with 2.5 more essence for mods over the Adept.
That's how they compare, though the Samurai does have extra points for additional Qualities (5, because he doesn't have to buy Adept). In the short-to-mid term, I'd say they measure up pretty well. However, the fact is that eventually the Samurai will run out of essence; the Adept can continue to increase his Magic. It takes 610 karma points solely dedicated to magic advancement to gain a 16 Magic, or 16 points worth of Adept abilities. My ultimate question, I suppose, is how does this compare to what the Samurai will top out at in terms of =Y= per adventure and comparative balance? I don't have an easy answer.
Clyde
Sep 6 2005, 03:55 AM
How much karma does it cost to hit the cap? I mean, the Street Samurai should start with a higher than average Agility and Reaction than most. After that, cranking up Firearms Skill Group and Close Combat Skill Group will cost a fair amount. At that point, you're down to nuyen, with karma just rounding out the edges on "nonessential" stats like Body, Strength, Intuition and Willpower.
Of course, I've seen few enough games get past the 150 karma point so I don't it's much of an issue in practice.
hahnsoo
Sep 6 2005, 07:34 AM
Just a note: Enhanced Articulation no longer gives +1 die for Combat skills, only Physical Skills linked to a Physical Attribute. Sorry.
It was consensus that adept=specialist and sam=generalist, was it not?
If you spend your first 6 pts of magic on the right combination of powers (improved ability whatever + some others), would investing heavily into some more powers really be efficient? At 34kp for the seventh point, that power had rather be important. One might consider walking that route late in life.
Now it seems to be that the samurai gets a diverse set of advantages from his ware, while the adept gets powers that canīt be emulated by cyber. As for advancing said adept, why not in skills rather than power points? Even if you are weaker than the samurai in those areas, you still are superior in your choosen speciality.
On the comparison: That shouldnīt be done by maximum dice / skill alone. Diminishing returns and all that. A runner needs more than one skill to excel.
Shayd
Sep 6 2005, 03:24 PM
Well, the original query was regarding a gap between augmented warriors (samurai) and mystic warriors (adepts). While I personally am a fan of diversity, extreme cases (comparing maximal combat efficiency, for example) tend to highlight the differences when it comes to a perceived "gap".
Hahnsoo is right (*blush*), I keep forgetting that they actually *fixed* enhanced articulation to not be the must-have uber efficient piece of bioware that it once was.
Extreme comparisons aside, in a general tabletop game I think the two types are fairly balanced. While an Adept does not *have* to be a specialist, the major points of difference in Adept powers vs. a cyberware route does point in that direction. Improved Ability on the offensive side and Mystic Armor/Spell Resistance on the defensive side represent the two areas where an Adept's powers truly differentiate them from what's available cybernetically/bioware-wise. Most everything else if not everything else that the Adept can do via its power selections can be duplicated by cyber/bioware. Thus, when speaking of a gap between the two, it's (in my opinion) important to consider this point of differentiation.
Of course, there are inherent aspects of the Adept that the Samurai can't match--ability versus astral forms via weapon foci, for example; and the benefits in terms of being able to avoid MADs and other 'ware-detecting defenses (which makes Masking an extremely good choice for the first metamagic power as an Adept).
When comparing the two, however, it's those three abilities above that truly make the difference; they provide excellent benefits that aren't duplicable by any other means.
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