 SR4 and the Evolving Character, AKA Advanced Characters over 200 Karma |
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 Sep 26 2005, 02:02 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567  |
Well couple things to comment on here.
First... Kyoto Kid if you were able to 'convert' your character to sr4 without the book for reference I'm rather impressed. Secondly if you've been through 2 conversions already your character has been around for aleast 10 years (icly) at this point...atleast. Yeah I could easeily say that you'd be at the top, or damn near top of your game. But moving back to other things. Yes with 200 karma you can get prety close to maxing out. But I don't overly fear this. Allow me to explain why. I do two things to keep all of this in check. First off I don't give out truckloads of karma every run. You survive you get one, if you actualy managed to complete atleast 2/3 your objectives you get another one. Then theres a few other rewards I hand out completely subjectively, ie if someone managed to come up with a brilliant idea that saved them bingo. But I also have 2 player voted awards, and one 'learning' award. The two player awards are most humorus, and the infamous 'he did WHAT?!?!?!' award. And then we go around and see if they, the characters and possibly the PC's learned anything. This isn't something they always get. And its based on my subjective judgement. If a pc says "I learend bullets hurt" he aint getting squat. Essentialy most of the time players will get 2 for a run and possibly 3 or 4. More if they actualy did something to warrent it or it was extra challenging or such. But generaly they get about 3 a run and occasionaly they get a point or two of karma in which they can only spend on a certain skill. What this boils down to is they don't overly accumulate karma too fast, they earn it. And ontop of that theres training times that I apply. So it takes them a while to build things up. And not every run only lasts one session. Add on I run a decently lethal game once things start rolling. They aren't going to max any time soon. 2 years if they have managed to have all original characters around still and have maxed out their characters I'll be rather impressed. If hard caps are such a problem with systems such as this...how have all the other systems been able to survive that use a similar system? |
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Sep 26 2005, 02:31 PM
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#27
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Different kind of clientele... sometimes. Diversified characters still are karma sinks, too... in fact, worse than ever, as there are way more skills. In fact, when converting, most characters will end up needing way more karma. |
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Sep 27 2005, 04:00 AM
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#28
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The only system that uses this sort of hard-caps that comes immediately to mind is NWoD; by some amazing coincidence, much of that system is pretty close to what happens in SR4. At any event, once you've maxed out your skills and attributes (5 for mundane humans) the only way you can get better is to add qualities or supernatural powers. Depending on your supernatural selection (Mage, Werewolf, or Vampire) you get new limits and purchase costs on certain traits. |
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Sep 27 2005, 08:20 AM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,679 |
I would argue about allowing raising stats and skills beyond normal cap ratings. Normal method to get to skill 7, then treble the costs to keep on going. It'll quickly become a karma sink. Double or treble the cost for an attribute for beyond the racial max.
What does the character get for all that karma, well not very much, we're looking at 1 extra dice when they already have 13+ dice, that ain't going to change the probabilities much. It just makes them the "ultimate" in their chosen field, with the rep of being the definitive authority on the topic. Anyone else notice that trolls and orcs have to spend more pushing up their stats to get their racial maximums? They start stronger, but take longer to improve. |
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Sep 27 2005, 09:59 AM
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#30
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I could almost be swayed to agree with dumping the cap on Skills, but I would definitely keep Attributes capped.
Yeah, but they also don't pay a Point cost for their negative stats at chargen, other than as a maximum limit. |
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Sep 27 2005, 02:46 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
There's actualy a few systems out there. But yes the new WoD is one of them, and probably the most recognizable one. I'll go with Robert on this one though...mostly different clientel.
Well if you look at things they start just as far from their racial max as humans. If you look at things you'll also see that if you start a character with just the baseline stats for his race that a troll will reach 6 in their big attributes much faster than a human. Also if you give the troll as much karma as the human to get to level 6 in say str, the troll will be 3 karma away from getting 8. 8 sir. Thats super human levels of strength. Lets look at the buildpoint costs. To get a human to even 6 strength it costs 75 BP. Whereas it costs a troll 10. You spend 75 to max one stat at 6 and with a troll you can spend 5 points more and have two stats at 9. I think really in the end it all ballances out. |
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Sep 27 2005, 07:23 PM
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#32
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I skimmed the thread and didn't notice anything about this yet, so I apologize if it's already been mentioned. I honestly didn't look that hard. :)
Public Awareness is a new interesting limitation, in that the RAW says that if you have a 3+ PA then Johnsons will hesistate to hire you. You're too high-profile at that point. Basically that means that eventually -- even if you keep your nose clean and don't earn a single point of Notoriety -- you're going to have to alter your running style after 300 karma (at best). You're no longer a faceless deniable/expendable asset that can get jobs done under the radar; you're now an official presence on the street. Johnsons, I imagine, will assume that if something happens to you (good or bad) SOMEONE will notice. To me, that's sort of like turning 20 in D&D 3.5: You've been around the block enough at this point to where you're no longer waiting for jobs to come to you; you're epic enough to create work for yourself. Sure, no Johnsons are hiring you anymore, but now you're good enough to just cut out the middleman. Feel like hijacking an Ares weapon shipment? Go for it. Presumably you've got the skills and connections to not only pull it off, but successfully fence the goods (except what you'd want to keep for yourself). Heck, at this point you're probably subcontracting lesser tasks to newbie runners. Alternately, you might have to break down and hitch your wagon to an organization of some kind. Pledge yourself to your local oyabun if you need to; that might be the only way you can get steady work from now on. Anyway, my point is that the game now has a nifty way to force you to "grow up" once your character has had enough impact upon the world. That's something to take into consideration when thinking long term. Not that too many 'Runners get to ever see the "long term," but hey. ;) |
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Sep 27 2005, 07:39 PM
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#33
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Those rules simply don't work that way, considering an normal reward of 4,5 karma every run.
But even when using them, you can always burn 2 points of SC to reduce your N by 1. (Whether you could do so without even haven an N above 0 is an interesting debate). So, those rules require a clever character to fuck up every sixth job, then playing his reputation as an excuse and better. Actually, this comes close to how it works not to become too important: Don't do too well, just have a positive average, make people mostly satisfied but not happy. |
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Sep 27 2005, 07:59 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Well at 300 karma you've earend 30 points of street cred. And since we want our PA to be down lower than 3 we're going to need a total of no more than 8. Which means the runner would have had to commit 11 seperate and wholy distinct acts worthy of noteriety atleast. Not a easy thing to do considering you should never be given a noteriety point for the same thing more than once unless you do it in a new interesting and completely different way. Its harder to stay dead even than you might think. Especialy when you can get extra street cred just for having a unbelievable escape or being on a epic run. |
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Sep 27 2005, 08:35 PM
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#35
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Never said it's easy - but it's fun. :D |
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Sep 27 2005, 08:48 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I don't see it stated anywhere that you cannot have a negative Noteriety. It isn't particularly helpful doing an Intimidation check, but it still helps you (to a lesser degree than the Street Cred spent) when earning someone's trust...assuming that you handle all the signs and subtract the negative Noteriety (giving you a higher number of bonus dice than Street Cred alone). This also helps your Public Awareness stay low. With negative Noteriety you can even carry a Street Cred into the double digits and theoretically remain a Nobody. Allowing a negative Notoriety also gives meaning to this otherwise near pointless line at the top left of page 258 (there doesn't seem to be any canon way to have a negative Street Cred).
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Sep 27 2005, 09:29 PM
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#37
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
:rotfl: |
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Sep 27 2005, 10:34 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Errr... I think negative notoriety is either PA or SC blakkie. :rotate:
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Sep 27 2005, 10:40 PM
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#39
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Not exactly... thats what makes this so interesting.
Of course, it's always nice to see that one tradition in SR never dies: Any rules concerning reputation end up being an abomination. :grinbig: |
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Sep 28 2005, 04:48 AM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Absolutely not. Also note that the text explicitly states that you can not drop Street Cred below 0 with mods, and that result from the calculation of Public Awareness never drops below 0. But there is no such stipulation given for not dropping Notoriety below 0. Not when it says you can lower it with Street Cred, nor when calculating the starting Notoriety based on Qualitiies. |
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Sep 28 2005, 04:58 AM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
No, what makes it so interesting is that the system actually begins to make longterm sense once you see that the Notoriety range extends into the negative. |
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Sep 28 2005, 05:59 AM
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#42
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
what, you f up so much that it takes a lot for anyone to take you seriously?
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Sep 28 2005, 06:12 AM
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#43
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's a bit of a stretch, considering that it turns long term runners into ultimate boyscouts. ;) Of course, that makes them the walking equivalent of Aztechnology - they can get away with genocide. :grinbig: |
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Sep 28 2005, 02:31 PM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Not ultimate boyscouts, because boyscouts stick out. :) More like the janitor at the plant that has been there 40 years but nobody knows his name, nobody ever thinks that it is odd that they don't know his name, nobody knows how long he has worked there, and nobody cares. The ultimate unused, unnoticed furniture. |
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Sep 28 2005, 02:34 PM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
No, you act so "professionally" that you are a ghost. Your shadow exploits are a whisper of a rumour. Yup, it does makes it harder to intimidate. But it also makes it easier to get someone to trust you. That's how the math works out. |
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Sep 28 2005, 02:35 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
You know, for once I think I'm in total agreement with blakkie here...
I haven't fully reviewed the mechanics of this, but it seems to me that the rep system only makes sense when allowing for a negative Notoriety. |
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Sep 28 2005, 02:56 PM
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#47
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Well mark on the wall. ;) The book probabaly should have made it clearer though, as it is a mental barrier that many aren't going to break through....until perhaps they make a character with the only Notoriety modifying Quality as Blandness or some such. The hints of it being able to go negative aren't particularly obvious by just reading the rules, and there are no examples of negative notoriety given. |
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Sep 28 2005, 03:17 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
If the rules explicitly declared the existence of negative Notoriety, I'd be more comfortable with what you're saying. For that matter, I easily see the uses of a negative Public Awareness but they specifically said that doesn't exist.
----- Were I to design the system, I'd have "Street Cred" as a linear scale that extends into the positive and negative. If you're in the negatives, you're notorious and people trust you less. If you're in the positives, they trust you more. SC would fluctuate up and down based upon your personal actions and the actions of your crew. If you're constantly screwing up, your SC plummets. If you keep your nose clean and are reliable, it goes up. Positive SC would assist with Etiquette. Negative SC would assist with Intimidation. Professionals and nice guys get to be all diplomatic; thugs and lowlife-types would rely on threats. Then I'd have "Public Awareness" also on a positive & negative scale. It'd increase whenever you did something overt or otherwise significant; it'd decrease at a steady rate based on your downtime. So if you're out saving (or destroying) the world on a weekly basis, your PA will skyrocket.... but if you lay low long enough, people will start to forget about you or chalk up your exploits to rumors and street lore. PA would represent the number of bonus dice someone could use to find out about you. If you're Mr. Popular with a 10 PA, then even the least-connected street trash has a chance to recognize you. If you're Mr. Shady with a -10 PA, then only the most well-informed people even have a chance to have heard your name. I wouldn't need a third stat, as the published Notoriety would be already folded into my version of Street Cred. ----- But hey, I paid for the RAW so I wouldn't have to spend the time developing and playtesting my own rules. |
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Sep 28 2005, 03:47 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
You know after looking back I think blakkie is right here. Course with anyone who knows your rep you're going to get a big pile o dice to add...afterall street cred - - noteriety (double negatives cancel out to make notieriety positive and adding both). So this is a interesting way of keeping your face out of the public eye, as long as you don't do things that wind up on the news. If you do, then your PA will still go up (depending on the GM ofcourse). |
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Sep 28 2005, 10:55 PM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Yeah, and that would mark the True Professional - unknown, unseen, but almost worshipped by those 'in the know'. |
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