Attribute/Skill Dice versus Test Dice, What is included in that 1.5? Options

[Autarkis]

So, there have been some revalations (specifically because everyone was trying to break the game with adapts :eek: ) and it has been noted that attributes and skills are limited to a modified number of 1.5 of the base.

Now, this brings up an interesting point and one I wanted some feedback/discussion on. What constitutes that 1.5 maximum. Lets take Smartgun Link and Improved Ability for instance.

Smartgun Link:

[hahnsoo]

Truthfully, this is something that only a dev can answer and clarify. There are numerous interpretations involving numerous situations, but the basics that need to be known (and can only be answered by a dev) are:
1) Improved Ability - Does it add to the base skill for the purposes of the 1.5 times skill cap? Or is it a dice pool modifier?
2) Spells and Augmentations that add directly to an attribute conditionally: Are they subject to the cap? Specifically, Combat Sense and Bone Lacing/Density?
3) What about Smartlink, Take Aim, and other dice pool modifiers? Do they count against the skill cap?

[Shalimar]

[blakkie]

[parasyte]

It seems reasonable to interpret that you do have a hard cap at 1.5x the skill, with any extra dice sitting on the sidelines so to speak, waiting to come in if negative modifiers start to affect the roll. So a gunslinging adept with Pistols 7 would have a maximum of 10 skill dice to roll (including smartlink +2 and improved ability 6), but firing through smoke (-4) at a defender having partial cover (-2) would still allow 9 dice to be rolled for the skill.

Probably that still doesn't work with the rules as written, but eh. In the absence of clarification it seems to make sense.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The beef is mainly the 'bonus dice to a skill' reference... which would remove smartlink from the list, but cap Improved Ability, Enhanced Articulation, Mnemonic enhancer or perhaps even Vision/Hearing Enhancement...

But, as last are listed independently as normal mods in the Perception Table, it doesn't seem this way.

[Lord Ben]

Is there even a way to get ahold of any Devs? Or an official board or anything? At least with d20 stuff they fix their errors and clear up misunderstandings.

[blakkie]

[Lord Ben]

I don't know, I've never had half the confustion with d20 I have with shadowrun. At least then they labeled all the bonus types and said what stacked and what didn't, etc.

The whole skill thing is confusing. According to the DM I can't use the implanted smartlink's for +2 since it's cyberware, but I can get it from contact lenses since that's not a cyberware bonus...

[Dashifen]

[Lord Ben]

The only think you're missing is a DM who takes the "bonus from magic, abilities, cyberware" thing too literally. "Well, it doesn't say equipment so if it's on goggles it doesn't matter, but if it's implanted then it counts towards it."

Whatever...

[blakkie]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And a reason, why sensory enhancements neither would...

[Clyde]

It looks like adept powers don't increase the skill, they provide bonus dice to the skill. Then they turn around and say that when you add bonus dice to a skill you are creating a modified skill rating. So, I'd say that adept powers do fall into the cap.

Smartlinks, on the other hand, provide bonus dice for a test rather than a skill. They require some special hardware (in the gun) to operate effectively. If they simply provided bonus dice to the skill, the smartlink would be augmenting the skill itself. I imagine specializations would slide by on the same logic - not part of the cap because they aren't a bonus to the skill just a situation dependant variable.

Stuff like Bone Lacing probably slides out as well.

For now, I'm taking the position that an augmentation is a modified rating if you get that bonus under all circumstances. Otherwise, it's just another situational modifier. This is probably best from a game balance perspective, as it puts a hard cap on the adept that is somewhere close to what the Samurai gets. Do it the other way and adepts just win.

[Doomclown]

[counterveil]

It is a bit confuzzling, yes. I think that I will interpret this whole dilemma in the fashion below unless the devs come up with something more interesting:

1) Skill Test Roll = total_max_test_dice*
*total_max_test_dice = [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)]

2) Apply negative modifiers
3) Apply positive modifiers (incl. adept powers, spells, smartlink, etc.)

IF total_max_test_dice =< [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)] then roll the dice.

IF total_max_test_dice > [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)] then reduce the test dice to be [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)] and then roll the dice.

EXAMPLE:
Joe Adept has AGI 5, Pistol 2, Improved Pistol 4, Smartlink +2

Regardless of situation the max test dice Joe Adept can roll is 5+2+(1/2 Pistol) = 8

The Improved Pistol 4 and Smartlink +2 would help if there were a ton of negative modifiers that they would simply be a "buffer" against.

This basically enforces a hard cap that no amount of tweaking will allow your munchkin players to break. It enforces a general policy on all equipment, powers, spells, and cyberware or bioware that is fair across the board and puts the onus simply on SKILL to beat.

Additionally, I like this interpretation because it makes sure that people aren't running around with base SKILL levels of 1 and relying completely on outside abilities to augment this.

Just my interpretation.

[Nikoli]

That renders all but the lowest levels of Adept skill powers less than useless (negative modifiers aside) as well as overly complicating the situation.

[counterveil]

Not having my PDF handy, what is the maximum "Improved Ability" for Adepts? 6? If so, then yes - point taken.

However, given that I apply modifiers very liberally (I believe in the "only 1 out of 3 shots hit in a real firefight" rule) then the Improved Ability, Smartlink, Spells, etc. will get used *a lot* in my campaign.

As for confusing...well I was confused before but my interpretation clears it up for me. Again, it's a personal interpretation and was by no means meant to be how I think the system actually runs - it just makes it easier for me :)

[WhiteRabbit]

The maximum level for all Adept powers, including Improved Ability, is equal to their magic.

[Autarkis]

Or for Improved Ability, Magic or Skill Rating, whichever is lower.

[WhiteRabbit]

After a bit of thinking I have decided that I like counterveil's interpretation and I have an example that shows how it works

Johny Hawkfeather, an adept, has AGI 5, Longarms 6, and Improved Ability (Longarms) 5. Shooting a Smartlinked rifle at short range his dice pool would be 5(AGI) + 6 (Skill) + 5 (IA) + 2 (SL) = 18, but the limit for his pool is 5 + 1.5 * 6 = 14, so those extra 4 dice are wasted.

However, later he is shooting at something at long range, in heavy rain, on a moonlight night, from the back of a moving pickup. In this case his dice pool is 5(AGI) + 6 (Skill) + 5 (IA) + 2 (SL) -2(range) -4(rain) -2(partial light) -3(moving vehicle) = 7. If he didn't have IA(Longarms) and the Smartlink he wouldn't have any dice to roll.

Mostly this lets the people that are really good shrug off penalties while still not allwing too much munchkinism.

[Wintermancer]

[Shadowlance]

I sent an email to their rules question address about this...do they actually respond to those?

[Lord Ben]

I got a response earlier asking me to clarify my question.