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Autarkis
So, there have been some revalations (specifically because everyone was trying to break the game with adapts eek.gif ) and it has been noted that attributes and skills are limited to a modified number of 1.5 of the base.

Now, this brings up an interesting point and one I wanted some feedback/discussion on. What constitutes that 1.5 maximum. Lets take Smartgun Link and Improved Ability for instance.

Smartgun Link:
QUOTE
When used with a smartlink, it provides +2 dice pool bonus on the ranged attack test.


Improved Ability
QUOTE
This power gives you additional dice for use with a specific
Active skill. Dice purchased for the Active skill carry
over equally to any specializations of the skill you know. You
cannot have more additional dice than your base skill rating.
Improved Ability does not actually improve a skillís rating,
it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill.
Improved Ability must be purchased for a specific skill, not
a skill group.


Skill Ratings (page 63)
QUOTE
Th e maximum natural rating available for a skill is 6, or
7 with the Aptitude quality (p. 77). Adept powers, implants
or magic may provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modified
skill rating, but this does not change the base skill rating.
Th e maximum modifi ed rating allowed is 1.5 times the natural
rating (making 9 the maximum achievable, or 10 with the
Aptitude quality).


Skill Rating (page 109)
-same as above with additional information of
QUOTE
Th e unmodifi ed skill rating assigned at character creation
or purchased during game play is considered to be the characterís
base skill rating. Some spells, abilities and implants may
provide bonus dice to a skill, creating a modifi ed skill rating,
but this does not change the base skill rating. Th ese extra dice
are listed in parentheses aft er the base skill, as in Spellcasting
4 (+2). A modifi ed skill cannot exceed the base skill rating x
1.5 (making 9 the maximum possible rating, or 10 with the
Aptitude Quality).


Dice Pool Modifiers (page 54)
QUOTE
The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice
modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and
situational factors that affect what the character is trying to do.
The modifier affects the number of dice used in the dice pool.
If more than one dice modifier applies, they are added together
and applied to the dice pool.
Note that threshold modifiers (see p. 56) do not affect
the dice pool. Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned
is considered to be a dice pool modifier as noted above.


So, what costitutes dice to the modified skill versus dice to the test?

Thoughts...dicussion?

/edit Added dice pool modifiers quote
hahnsoo
Truthfully, this is something that only a dev can answer and clarify. There are numerous interpretations involving numerous situations, but the basics that need to be known (and can only be answered by a dev) are:
1) Improved Ability - Does it add to the base skill for the purposes of the 1.5 times skill cap? Or is it a dice pool modifier?
2) Spells and Augmentations that add directly to an attribute conditionally: Are they subject to the cap? Specifically, Combat Sense and Bone Lacing/Density?
3) What about Smartlink, Take Aim, and other dice pool modifiers? Do they count against the skill cap?
Shalimar
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Truthfully, this is something that only a dev can answer and clarify. There are numerous interpretations involving numerous situations, but the basics that need to be known (and can only be answered by a dev) are:
1) Improved Ability - Does it add to the base skill for the purposes of the 1.5 times skill cap? Or is it a dice pool modifier?
2) Spells and Augmentations that add directly to an attribute conditionally: Are they subject to the cap? Specifically, Combat Sense and Bone Lacing/Density?
3) What about Smartlink, Take Aim, and other dice pool modifiers? Do they count against the skill cap?

Improved ability says specifically that it does not modify the skill rating, so I would tend to think its outside of the 1.5x rule. Hopefully some clarifications are forthcoming though
blakkie
QUOTE (Shalimar @ Sep 6 2005, 10:52 PM)
Improved ability says specifically that it does not modify the skill rating, so I would tend to think its outside of the 1.5x rule.  Hopefully some clarifications are forthcoming though

That is one way to interpret that text. But it leads to the question of which adept power does fall under the limit then? Because there is at least one.

This part of the rules doesn't seem to have been written with well defined terminology. frown.gif
parasyte
It seems reasonable to interpret that you do have a hard cap at 1.5x the skill, with any extra dice sitting on the sidelines so to speak, waiting to come in if negative modifiers start to affect the roll. So a gunslinging adept with Pistols 7 would have a maximum of 10 skill dice to roll (including smartlink +2 and improved ability 6), but firing through smoke (-4) at a defender having partial cover (-2) would still allow 9 dice to be rolled for the skill.

Probably that still doesn't work with the rules as written, but eh. In the absence of clarification it seems to make sense.
Rotbart van Dainig
The beef is mainly the 'bonus dice to a skill' reference... which would remove smartlink from the list, but cap Improved Ability, Enhanced Articulation, Mnemonic enhancer or perhaps even Vision/Hearing Enhancement...

But, as last are listed independently as normal mods in the Perception Table, it doesn't seem this way.
Lord Ben
Is there even a way to get ahold of any Devs? Or an official board or anything? At least with d20 stuff they fix their errors and clear up misunderstandings.
blakkie
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
Is there even a way to get ahold of any Devs? Or an official board or anything? At least with d20 stuff they fix their errors and clear up misunderstandings.

Eventually....then Skip goes off and creates a whole new batch of misunderstandings with one of this patented "My House Rules Are Canon" articles. rotfl.gif
Lord Ben
I don't know, I've never had half the confustion with d20 I have with shadowrun. At least then they labeled all the bonus types and said what stacked and what didn't, etc.

The whole skill thing is confusing. According to the DM I can't use the implanted smartlink's for +2 since it's cyberware, but I can get it from contact lenses since that's not a cyberware bonus...
Dashifen
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Sep 7 2005, 01:20 PM)
At least with d20 stuff they fix their errors and clear up misunderstandings.

Yeah, but d20 causes cancer so you have that to worry about rotfl.gif

QUOTE (Lord Ben)
The whole skill thing is confusing. According to the DM I can't use the implanted smartlink's for +2 since it's cyberware, but I can get it from contact lenses since that's not a cyberware bonus...


The only time that I know of that a smartlink's +2 isn't stackable is with the +1 from a laser sight. Probably because you don't know which little red dot to shoot for. How the smartlink data is displayed to your character (cybereye with image link, goggles, contact lenses, etc.) shouldn't matter unless I've missed something.
Lord Ben
The only think you're missing is a DM who takes the "bonus from magic, abilities, cyberware" thing too literally. "Well, it doesn't say equipment so if it's on goggles it doesn't matter, but if it's implanted then it counts towards it."

Whatever...
blakkie
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Sep 7 2005, 01:00 PM)
The only think you're missing is a DM who takes the "bonus from magic, abilities, cyberware" thing too literally.  "Well, it doesn't say equipment so if it's on goggles it doesn't matter, but if it's implanted then it counts towards it."

Whatever...

The only thing you are missing is a pair of steel toed cowboy boots. Or at least one of the pair. For your kicking foot. To give your DM a testicle adjustment. dead.gif

EDIT: BTW i think he may have inadvertently provided a great argument for why SL implants are NOT subject to the skill max. wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
And a reason, why sensory enhancements neither would...
Clyde
It looks like adept powers don't increase the skill, they provide bonus dice to the skill. Then they turn around and say that when you add bonus dice to a skill you are creating a modified skill rating. So, I'd say that adept powers do fall into the cap.

Smartlinks, on the other hand, provide bonus dice for a test rather than a skill. They require some special hardware (in the gun) to operate effectively. If they simply provided bonus dice to the skill, the smartlink would be augmenting the skill itself. I imagine specializations would slide by on the same logic - not part of the cap because they aren't a bonus to the skill just a situation dependant variable.

Stuff like Bone Lacing probably slides out as well.

For now, I'm taking the position that an augmentation is a modified rating if you get that bonus under all circumstances. Otherwise, it's just another situational modifier. This is probably best from a game balance perspective, as it puts a hard cap on the adept that is somewhere close to what the Samurai gets. Do it the other way and adepts just win.
Doomclown
QUOTE (Lord Ben)
I don't know, I've never had half the confustion with d20 I have with shadowrun. At least then they labeled all the bonus types and said what stacked and what didn't, etc.

The whole skill thing is confusing. According to the DM I can't use the implanted smartlink's for +2 since it's cyberware, but I can get it from contact lenses since that's not a cyberware bonus...

My d20 confusion usually stems from the fact that every feat and spell seems to have its own mini-rulebook that has to be referenced to do anything. At least with SR you can just shrug and roll two appropriate-seeming numbers against a reasonable TN and get something that works for gameplay.

I would consider smartlink a modifier (like taking aim, darkness, cover, etc), rather than an augmentation, and therefore outside of the 1.5x limit. But that's coming from "feeling right " rather than hard logic. It would be nice to have a clearer distinction between augmentations and modifiers.
counterveil
It is a bit confuzzling, yes. I think that I will interpret this whole dilemma in the fashion below unless the devs come up with something more interesting:

1) Skill Test Roll = total_max_test_dice*
*total_max_test_dice = [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)]

2) Apply negative modifiers
3) Apply positive modifiers (incl. adept powers, spells, smartlink, etc.)

IF total_max_test_dice =< [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)] then roll the dice.

IF total_max_test_dice > [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)] then reduce the test dice to be [STAT + (Base SKILL * 1.5)] and then roll the dice.

EXAMPLE:
Joe Adept has AGI 5, Pistol 2, Improved Pistol 4, Smartlink +2

Regardless of situation the max test dice Joe Adept can roll is 5+2+(1/2 Pistol) = 8

The Improved Pistol 4 and Smartlink +2 would help if there were a ton of negative modifiers that they would simply be a "buffer" against.

This basically enforces a hard cap that no amount of tweaking will allow your munchkin players to break. It enforces a general policy on all equipment, powers, spells, and cyberware or bioware that is fair across the board and puts the onus simply on SKILL to beat.

Additionally, I like this interpretation because it makes sure that people aren't running around with base SKILL levels of 1 and relying completely on outside abilities to augment this.

Just my interpretation.

Nikoli
That renders all but the lowest levels of Adept skill powers less than useless (negative modifiers aside) as well as overly complicating the situation.

counterveil
Not having my PDF handy, what is the maximum "Improved Ability" for Adepts? 6? If so, then yes - point taken.

However, given that I apply modifiers very liberally (I believe in the "only 1 out of 3 shots hit in a real firefight" rule) then the Improved Ability, Smartlink, Spells, etc. will get used *a lot* in my campaign.

As for confusing...well I was confused before but my interpretation clears it up for me. Again, it's a personal interpretation and was by no means meant to be how I think the system actually runs - it just makes it easier for me smile.gif
WhiteRabbit
The maximum level for all Adept powers, including Improved Ability, is equal to their magic.

Autarkis
Or for Improved Ability, Magic or Skill Rating, whichever is lower.
WhiteRabbit
After a bit of thinking I have decided that I like counterveil's interpretation and I have an example that shows how it works

Johny Hawkfeather, an adept, has AGI 5, Longarms 6, and Improved Ability (Longarms) 5. Shooting a Smartlinked rifle at short range his dice pool would be 5(AGI) + 6 (Skill) + 5 (IA) + 2 (SL) = 18, but the limit for his pool is 5 + 1.5 * 6 = 14, so those extra 4 dice are wasted.

However, later he is shooting at something at long range, in heavy rain, on a moonlight night, from the back of a moving pickup. In this case his dice pool is 5(AGI) + 6 (Skill) + 5 (IA) + 2 (SL) -2(range) -4(rain) -2(partial light) -3(moving vehicle) = 7. If he didn't have IA(Longarms) and the Smartlink he wouldn't have any dice to roll.

Mostly this lets the people that are really good shrug off penalties while still not allwing too much munchkinism.
Wintermancer
QUOTE (parasyte)
It seems reasonable to interpret that you do have a hard cap at 1.5x the skill, with any extra dice sitting on the sidelines so to speak, waiting to come in if negative modifiers start to affect the roll. So a gunslinging adept with Pistols 7 would have a maximum of 10 skill dice to roll (including smartlink +2 and improved ability 6), but firing through smoke (-4) at a defender having partial cover (-2) would still allow 9 dice to be rolled for the skill.

Probably that still doesn't work with the rules as written, but eh. In the absence of clarification it seems to make sense.

That's essentially the way I interpreted it.
Shadowlance
I sent an email to their rules question address about this...do they actually respond to those?
Lord Ben
I got a response earlier asking me to clarify my question.
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