 New to Shadowrun.., A n00b in need of advice. |
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 Sep 7 2005, 09:23 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,701  |
First post here, been a lurker for a while. I've been playing table top games for years (10-ish?), but I've never, ever played Shadowrun..
In a few weeks, I'll be involved in my first run. I'm looking forward to it. Sounds like fun. Etc, etc.. However.. And this is sort of a big however.. the reading I've done around here, online, in the books, and the conversations I've had with people, all suggest the following; 1. It's really easy to die in Shadowrun. 2. Especially if you're a phys adept. 3. Especially if you're a phys adept with no cyberware. 4. ESPECIALLY if you're a phys adept with no cyberware and a low body. :/ See, before I really got to look at the numbers and educate myself, I made a regular old elf gunslinger phys adept. I have a great back story, I like the feel of the character, and I've even had a chance to do a little background story writing for him, BUT. I'm worried he's going to die.. or, at least, fall behind the street sams in the group, lose essence/magic to wounds/surgery, and never really make far. The old D&D power gamer in me is kicking and screaming at the idea that a single grenade or unlucky dodge attempt (or general n00bness) will result in a character death. BAH! I need advice on making a decent phys adept.. and reassurance that they don't deserve to be the personal bitch to every street sam on the streets. What I have atm: (This is point buy, 123) Body 3 Quickness 8 Strength 2 Intelligence 6 Charisma 3 Will 5 Edges: Ambidexterity 6, Increase Racial Max (Quickness) 1, Bonus Physical Attribute (Quickness) 1 Flaws: Hunted -2 (Upstart gunslingers looking to make a name for themselves), Disctinctive Style -1 (Man with no name/Cowboy) Skills: (This is from the top of my head, character sheet is not on me atm) Pistols 6, Shotguns 4, Small Unit Tactics 5, Pistols B/R 3, Stealth 6, misc. other skills/knoweledges Augments: None! Adept Powers: Combat Skill Focus (Pistols) 4, Improved Reflexes 2 (w/ GM approved geasea), Mag 3 vision, Thermovision, Traceless Step, and something like .5 points to still spend Gear: Not a clue what's good. :/ But I have 20k to spend. Disclaimer: I'm new, so please don't bash me if you find this concept to be old and used, if I made any mistakes, if you hate geas, phys adepts, or you're just generally a troll. Thanks for any advice. |
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Sep 7 2005, 10:36 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
1) dodge
2) seek cover, do not stand in an open hall shouting as you fire your revolvers 3) armor, a leather vest with a small metal star on it only gives at best 0/2, get something better Ok, your powers are nothing extreme, senses are always good. There's a new adept power in 2064 that just gives extra dice to dodge, I think it was .5 per level and just added one die per level to your combat pool with the condition that those extra dice can only be used on dodge tests. (not looking at book) Also, find out if the GM is the mass-slaughter type or the kind who will give you every rational opportunity to keep a PC you like, unless another PC has observed you go through all your overflow. If the second kind, you only have to deal with having an average (for a human) ability to stop lead with your flesh, but don't have to worry about losing the character except in cases that should kill the rest of the team as well (which you can then argue about the confrontation being too powerful). |
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Sep 7 2005, 10:40 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
It's not a new power. It is the SR4 version of the old classic 'combat sense'.
I would reduce intelligence by one and put the point on strength. |
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Sep 7 2005, 10:50 AM
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#4
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
question: if you're a gunslinger, why bother with traceless walk? Don't enjoy the spur jingling or somethin'?
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Sep 7 2005, 11:32 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 145 Joined: 6-May 04 Member No.: 6,305 |
I'm playing a non-cybered PhysAd and I havn't taken more than a moderate wound so far, and that only once.
The main thing is to not try and be what you're not, and yes, going from D&D it's very hard to realise that just about anything can kill you. I will however say, holy crap man you need a higher body score than 3! Also, are you planning on being a gunslinger or a sneaker? If the former, drop stealth, up shotguns, probably pickup machineguns, and turn into a walking tank. If the latter, you need to retool just about everything. However, I am going to say that I still am not that much beyond a newbie myself, so feel free to ignore my advice :) |
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Sep 7 2005, 12:24 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270 |
I didn't see any social skills. Not even intimidate.
Might help get you out of a jam or too. |
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Sep 7 2005, 12:35 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
First of all - yeah, you need more Body. Not getting hit is nice - unfortunately, it's something that's guaranteed not to last. Also, there are things you can't dodge, like grenade blasts, or toxins. It'll also help you get a decent Athletics score, which is a good thing if you care about being able to climb, run and jump at all effectively.
Second - the strength of 2... It means you're dead meat every time someone not incompetent manages to get into melee with you, and this is another thing you just won't be able to avoid all the time. As it stands, a mall security guard with a nightstick could beat the crap out of you. (you'll have a high initiative, but remember - you only go once before everyone else you haven't shot yet gets to go) Third - your gear. You'll want form fitting body armor and an armored vest with plates, as well as either a smartlinked gun and some smart shades, or laser sights. You won't be able to use either if you use two guns, but times will come when shooting accurately with just one will be more important than slinging a lot of lead. And if you want to use two guns at once, I'd strongly encourage taking 8 points in the Ambidexterity edge if you can. Not being able to use a smartlink and always having a +1 TN modifier for your off-hand will be a killer. |
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Sep 7 2005, 01:51 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,701 |
Well, I'd originally imagined that I could fill the "rogue" roll when necessary.. something secondary to fall back on when I wasn't shooting at things. If Stealth 6 + Traceless walk wont really cover what's necessary for that, I'll just drop it and replace it with something else.
What would a good replacement? Perhaps social skills? Intimidate, leadership.. Pistols w/ Smartlink and goggles, check. What's a good pistol to use? Ambi 8, possible. Form fitting armor with vest, check. Shotgun or Assault Rifle or SMG? Incease body and strength? meh! I have 36-37? skill points, I could shave a few off.. FYI, the character is largely a "modern" reinterpetation of Clint Eastwood's famous "Man without a name" from his westerns. The history of the character is broken up into two major themes.. a childhood living close to the Aztlan/UCAS boarder with an interest in cowboys and general American/Spanish history, and then a career as a small time hired gun. Maybe even a little work as a LoneStar? |
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Sep 7 2005, 02:24 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Not what I was talking about, even if it uses the same rules. I was referring to "Side Step" which is in SotA 2064. It uses different rules than combat sense and isn't a SR4 rule being retroverted. By the way, I would use the time 2070 if I was for some odd reason referring to the SR4 book by timeframe. |
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Sep 7 2005, 02:35 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Well, obviously there's only so much you can do to make him tougher before he ceases to bear any resemblance to your original character idea. :) You might want to think about taking a few points out of your adept powers (maybe even lowering Improved Reflexes from II to I) and using them to improve your attributes instead - basically, consider which you'll have an easier time improving with karma after character creation, and what you want to spend karma on to develop the character. (if you can survive long enough to initiate once, for example, you'll be able to - IIRC - boost Body to 5 for one power point. On the other hand, if you're dead-set on raising skills first and foremost, and would like to spend that power point on them, you might need to look for point elsewhere to raise your Body and/or Strength) As far as stealth goes - a good stealth score and Traceless Step are great but... what do you plan on having the character *do* once he sneaks in somewhere, if all he can do is shoot? Unless you're willing to invest into the breaking and entering skill set, or can hack into computers, or have the melee skills to silently disable sentries, an extremely high stealth skill isn't all that helpful. True, you can use it just to get a jump on people in combat, but good tactics and cover are more use there than anything else, and the investment of power points into Traceless Step isn't really necessary. I'd encourage dropping it unless it's central to the character concept. Guns... For pistols you can basically go either of two ways - high concealability, or high ammo capacity. There's not much to differentiate the stock SR heavy pistols otherwise - they all have the same range and damage. That's if you don't go for something highly unusual, like an Ares Viper Slivergun... Whatever you decide on, get quick-draw concealable holsters (character concept aside, you just can't get away with walking around with two guns hanging from your belt in 90% of places), different types of ammo, like Ex-Ex and gel rounds to increase your damage and be able to take people down through less-lethal means, and some recoil compensation for your guns (1 point per gun should be enough, but I'd suggest double-checking) - not having uncompensated recoil is vital when using two pistols. As far as secondary firearm skills go - I think you should take either pistols or SMGs, and since you already have the former, that basically leaves ARs and Shotguns to choose from... I'm a fan of assault rifles - in large part because of their excellent range, and because you can put a grenade launcher on one - but if you use the SR3 canon rules for shotguns, they're absurdly powerful weapons and worth looking into as well. Oh, and social skills are always a good idea, of course - at the very least, you'd want some points in etiquette(street). |
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Sep 7 2005, 02:37 PM
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#11
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Elves have high Quickness. Which is linked to various combat skills like Pistols and Rifles and Stealth. A high(6 or more) Quickness enables you to max out these skills.
Elves have high Charisma. Etiquette and Intimidation are Cha-linked skills, which you need in moderation. Hence a higher-than to average Charisma is required. A Body of 4 is recommended. Why? Most weapons in SR3 (haven't got SR4) deal Moderate damage as a base. So in order to stage down to nothing, you need 4 successes and 4 dice at least. Strength is linked to melee combat skills and linked to the amount of hurt you can deal in a fistfight, so be smart: Invest in some Strength and a melee combat skill. |
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Sep 7 2005, 03:39 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,701 |
Playing around with it, I got
Body 6 Quickness 7 Strength 4 Charisma 4 Intelligence 5 Willpower 4 Dropped stealth entirely, picked up Negotiation 3, Intimidation 4, and Etiquette 2. Switched Shotguns 4 for Assault Rifles, altho I will miss the idea of a Spas 22. Changed my adept powers to; thermovision mag 3 vision flarecomp vision (GM is flare happy) improved combat skill: pistols 4 improved reflexes 2 w/ geasea forcing character to adopt certain, unmistakable cowboy mannerisms (namely a hat), which is a problem coupled with the flaws. pain relief 1 I have ambidex 8, but it comes at the cost of -4 Dossier on File: Lonestar and -1 Distinctive Style: Shadowrun cowboy I'm looking at colt manhunters for guns.. altho I keep seeing the Morrissey Alta and liking the conceal.. [edit: for melee, there's a bit of unarmed and there's 4 points in club, for a stungun or something.] |
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Sep 7 2005, 03:42 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
<edit>crap. You posted while I was typing :) </edit>
Not a bad start. Having a picture in your head is always good, but too much min/maxing is bad. Now that I've said that, drop a few skill points and boost your body to 5. Either drop the ambidexterity altogether or get the 8 point edge (or is this an SR4 thing of which I'm not aware?). Drop the cash to :nuyen: 5000 for more points. And you'll probably need to take another flaw or two. Maybe upgrade the Hunted flaw to "Aztechnology Espionage Agent who's brother you killed in a gunfight and will stop at nothing to send you to boot hill." I like the traceless walk. Spend your extra phys-ad points in Stealth. He should be able to come and go as a ghost, right? |
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Sep 7 2005, 03:55 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
A SPAS-22 is a great weapon - if you like it, stick with it. (there are reasons for going either way - the SPAS will definitely do more damage than the AR, but will have a shorter range and much lower ammo capacity - the question is, what's more important to you?) As far as stats go, two things: 1. It's my opinion that a 7 in quickness in wasted on an adept - it's only really helpful for raising skills with karma to more than 6, but you can do that much easier and faster by initiating and using your adept powers directly to get extra dice in the skills. You're better off with the extra point in Intelligence - your reaction and CP stay the same, but you have better perception and more knowledge skills. 2. A 4 in Willpower is certainly playable (did it once with a character who was good at not being seen...), but it can be like a big "kick me" sign if you go up against a mage... You really should think hard about leaving it that low. Remember - adepts can always boost physical abilities with powers, but not mental ones... Still, in the end, it comes down to what fits your character concept. |
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Sep 7 2005, 04:04 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,701 |
Hey, thanks for the tip on quickness vs. intelligence. I shaved a little off skills and now my attributes are;
body 6 quickness 6 strength 4 charisma 4 intelligence 6 willpower 6 o.O .. I feel a bit dirty. Isn't that like four 18's? |
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Sep 7 2005, 04:06 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
You're a physical adept. You should be an amazing specimen.
PS, you're a pistol adept. Don't waste time with either shotgun or assault rifle. It a waste of your 8 point edge and a couple points of phys-ad powers. If you must carry a large weapon, make it a LARGE weapon, and take the Rifle skill. And really, think twice about dropping the Stealth. Avoiding a confrontation is much better than talking or shooting your way out of one. |
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Sep 7 2005, 04:12 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Nah, not really... Remember, if you were playing a character that used cyber or bioware, you could easily have some stats at 10 - or more, if you played the right meta-type. Adepts generally pay for how easy they are to advance in play (and for having ungodly skill levels) with fewer overall goodies and lower abilities than cyber-oriented fighters at character generation. Also, standard starting SR3 characters are much more exceptional and competent than their D&D counterparts by design - you're supposed to be able to play a very competent professional from the get-go. |
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Sep 7 2005, 04:19 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,698 |
Remember your best friend is a good mage with a force 6 treat or heal spell. That can put you back up on your feet faster than you might realize.
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Sep 7 2005, 05:23 PM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
To be clear, are you dead-set on going completely uncybered?
~J |
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Sep 7 2005, 05:29 PM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 7-September 05 Member No.: 7,701 |
What's worth a loss in essence? I know there's the smartlink 2..
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Sep 7 2005, 05:32 PM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Smartlink-II, basically. After that you just fill the hole with other goodies.
You can geas off two levels of Improved Pistols, as the TN mod solidly outweighs the loss of dice. ~J |
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Sep 7 2005, 05:35 PM
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#22
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
smartlink, the ever present datajack... as an adept you most likely wont need eyes or ears...
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Sep 7 2005, 05:37 PM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you're already spending part of a point it's cheaper to get it that way and spend the power points elsewhere. The exceptions are thermovision and low-light where natural versions work better.
Let me know if this is all getting too min-maxy and I'll reign it in ;) ~J |
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Sep 7 2005, 05:49 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
And raising Strength won't help that. Due to the way Shadowrun handles melee combat - particularly, the overwhelming effect of TN modifiers - anyone with even one point in a melee skill will mop the floor with basically anyone without one. (A maxed-out cybertroll might be able to throw enough dice at the problem to overcome the huge TN penalty imposed by defaulting to Strength, but no one else has a chance.) A point or two in a melee skill to put you on the right side of the skilled vs. unskilled divide is a good idea, but it's not worth getting more than that. Unless you're going to totally focus your character on melee, you just have to accept that if you get into melee with people who know how to do it, they're going to clean your clock. The solution is not to try to keep up with them in melee at the expense of your own specialties, but to trump their specialties with your own, and put a hole in them before they get close enough to engage you in melee to begin with. |
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Sep 7 2005, 05:56 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
As for how to stay alive:
Tactics in SR3 are largely about TN management. You want to do anything to increase the TNs of the opposition while keeping your own TNs low. Thing like smoke grenades, flash grenades/flash packs, cover, shooting out the lights (for lighting mods), etc all go a long way to keeping you alive. Here's a rather extreme example: You are facing down another gunslinger, he has 12 dice (skill 6, improved ability 6) and a smartlink. If you are both just standing there, his TN to shoot you would be 2 (4 -2 for the smartlink), and he would get 10 successes, almost certainly enough to kill you. If you take cover his TN would be 6 (4 + 4 -2) meaning he would only get 2 successes to hit, on average. This is much easier to soak the damage from. This is why infiltration characters, who might find themselves swinging in the breeze alone, carry so many things that modify target numbers. An infiltration adept will likely carry flash packs and or flash grenades, smoke and or gas grenades, etc all so a group of guards can have their TNs jacked up, giving the adept time to do something other then die. |
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