 Converting Old Traditions, With their spirits. |
  |
 Oct 18 2005, 10:39 PM
Post
#26
|
|||
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 30-September 05 Member No.: 7,791  |
Sacrifical metamagic? where? :) I would say that sacriface gives (essence/2) or (magic) automatic hits on both summoning, binding and invoking. and only one sacriface to give bonus to this all. It will probably be one ritual. Really bloody ritual. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Oct 19 2005, 04:09 AM
Post
#27
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The Sacrifice Metamagic allows you to inflict boxes of physical damage on a sapient animal (usually a human) to reduce the drain value by an equal amount. Like how initiates can transfer damage to their allies to reduce drain. That means that the 4th edition version is often quite pointless to use on yourself. There's still a reason to do it when using very drain intensive magic that is nonetheless causing stun damage. Remember, if the drain from binding a spirit knocks you out, the spirit goes free and eats your heart - but if you merely suffer crippling physical injury and stun damage, nothing bad happens to you. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 19 2005, 04:57 AM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
also useful for trolls, who have crazy high body attribute and can stand to take a few extra boxes of physical damage over stun damage.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 19 2005, 07:20 AM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh, let's look at this one again. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 19 2005, 04:06 PM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the point was that if you fill up all your stun boxes, you fall unconcious. if you fill up half your stun boxes and half your physical boxes, you are still able to continue fighting, or run away, or whatever else it is that you need to do. it is also especially useful for summoning/binding, since you can take the time to rest and recover from the physical part of the drain. it would allow crazy 'overcasting' if you could apply the drain partially to one damage track and partially to the other.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 19 2005, 05:26 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Still, given the way it worked in previous editions, and because its supposed to be scary/powerful, I'd allow for 1 box physical reduces drain by 2.
Or maybe we do the thign where it varies based on the sacrifice? Perhaps 1 slaughtered animal reduces drain by 1, 1 slaughtered paranimal reduces drain by 2, 1 box physical damage to a sentient creature reduces drain by 1, and 1 box damage to an awakened sentient creature reduces drain by 2? Yeah, I like that. That's how I think I'll run it. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 19 2005, 09:20 PM
Post
#32
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
As an interesting possibility here, frank, might we require that possession traditions must make little host bodies for their watchers? Homunculi or possesed voodoo dolls? miniature golems? Actually, is there any way for a possession tradition to have spirits animate golems instead of people when binding? That'd be cool. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 19 2005, 09:27 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
not sure if he said it here or elsewhere on the boards, but i think he said he was gonna convert homunculi sometime. so the real question is: can watchers possess homunculi (if they can, that would definitely make them a lot more combat effective...)
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 19 2005, 09:35 PM
Post
#34
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Absolutely, we just bust out the old rules for the Inhabiting Focus. People can make golem bodies with enchanting that can subsequently be possessed by summoned and bound spirits. Like the old rules for making an ally in a homunculus body. Now the old rules had problems - namely that only character theme would make you ever consider making the body out of anything other than metal. There are a couple of solutions to that: *: make the benefits of an inhabiting focus completely independent of the material used. *: make the benefits of each material a relatively minor. Ex: a clay body might give hefty fire resistance, a straw body might grant a speed upgrade, a steel body might give some extra armor or strength, etc. I'm leaning towards the second option. But what can't happen is the old-edition stuff where you had a hardened armor stat that was entirely material dependent. That has to go away, and inhabiting foci can jolly well just not take away the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons.
That would work. The key here is that Possession Traditions would give up their ability to use Watchers as spies, messengers, or long-range scouts, but gain the ability to use their watchers on the physical plane. Having dual watchers would make them really slow, but literally infinitely more effective on the physical plane. I would suggest that the body they need should be the equivalent of a fetish - something that by itself doesn't cost any karma. Inhabitting Foci should probably be the same way, at least up to a certain level. I could see a two tiered system in which there were basic inhabitable bodies, and body foci that gave bonuses to any spirit that is conjured into them - like the difference between a Fetish and a Fetish Focus. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oct 19 2005, 10:05 PM
Post
#35
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
I'd say that the inhabiting item for bonding possession spirits has no stat's of it's own, so that only the spirit's stats are used. An inhabititing Focus, however, has it's rating as physical stats to stack with the possessing spirit, as normal. That would be the difference. Meaning watchers, which can only inhabit the fetish version, not the focus, can't have physical stats above 1. I Like it. Why don't you add this to the notes on the possession power. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 19 2005, 10:32 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Heh, now I've got this image of little Lego-men Watchers walking around. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 20 2005, 05:55 AM
Post
#37
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
I like where you're going with this. Very nice :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 20 2005, 11:01 AM
Post
#38
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well... the primary reason is because that takes a step up from "converting" the old traditions, and takes them in a new (if logical, by my standards) direction. So while I think the idea has a lot of merit, it's not really part of the original thread goal to adopt the flavor and capabilities of the old magical traditions into SR4. The secondary reason is because spirits other than watchers need some sort of incentive to enter a prepared golem. Remember that the inhabiting fetish comes with some very real advantages for a watcher to go with the severe restrictions on movement. While a watcher in a body is no longer able to use astral fast movement or fly through walls or become invisible, it can now carry 10kg of stuff for you, and that's no joke. However a spirit can already lift and carry. Normally what they are looking at in terms of advantages from being locked in a body is potentially longer terms of service and some bonus physical attributes. Remember, a hobo corpse is free, and comes with +2 to every physical stat. For an inhabiting fetish to be competitive for a spirit, it needs to come with some bonuses to offset the fact that it is so much more expensive and time consuming than finding a dead body when you are a shadowrunner. So the Inhabitting Fetishes need to come in two grades: Watcher Grade (which are little dolls or toy rhinos or whatever), and Spirit Grade (which are full metahuman sized golems). The cost difference can be substantial, and the Spirit Grade ones should come with some basic stats that are possibly related to the material they are made with. In addition, there are the Inhabitting Foci, which are Spirit Grade Inhabitting Fetishes that also have a Force that simply adds to physical stats and rolls to resist banishment. I like where this is going, but it probably belongs in the other thread because Houngans weren't able to do this in any previous edition (although I would argue that they should have been able to). -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 20 2005, 01:59 PM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
The incentive to use a fetish over a hobo corpse, aside from the smell, is that making animated scarecrows isn't illegal, while creating Zombies is.
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2005, 12:05 AM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 16-March 05 From: 51° 16' North 7° 11' East Member No.: 7,168 |
I'm working on norse magic with the help of scientific sources. It's still 'under construction' for it's difficult to get the spirits right. So I don't want to translate the explanations into English until the final version. Right now I can just give you the bare facts. ( We're still discussing them, too. )
Combat - Fire Giants ( Fire ) Detection - Storm Giants ( Air ) Health - Water Giants ( Water ) Illusion - Mountain Giants ( Earth ) Manipulation - Elben / Elves ( Man ) Drain: Willpower + Charisma Edit: Maybe one should permute water and earth. This post has been edited by Doc Byte: Oct 21 2005, 01:15 AM |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2005, 01:48 AM
Post
#41
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Personally, if I was going to make a Norse Magic tradition which summoned giants and fey rather than invoking animal spirits to possess themselves, I'd set it up like this: Combat - Valkyr ( Warrior ) Detection - Muspel Giants ( Fire ) Health - Niefel Giants ( Water ) Illusion - Van ( Man ) Manipulation - Svartalf ( Earth ) And then use Charisma and Willpower to resist Drain. Of course, that's just me.
Oh heck yes. Although you can obviate the smell problems by simply shrink wrapping your zombies. For the average person, the fact that you don't have to deal with murder or body snatching to get your hands on spirits with hands is such a big advantage that a golem body could come with substantial penalties compared to a previously living body and remain competitive. But we don't write these rules for normal people - we write them for Shadowrunners. And Shadowrunners get the bodies of Yakuza enforcers for free. Often delivered to their homes. So they need to have the golem bodies incentivized, if only slightly. I'm thinking that a basic spirit body should have physical stats of about 2, modified up and down by materials. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 21 2005, 10:41 AM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 30-September 05 Member No.: 7,791 |
What happen if someone kills your ally spirit?
|
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2005, 02:16 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Actually, frank, most of my players find the idea of using fresh hobo corpses (I drek you not) Distasteful. It's like they actually care about the sanctitiy of human life or something. Sometimes I have to give out Substantial in game benifits in order for them ot be evil.
It's like I'm living in the twilight zone. I'd like to strongly disagree that we write these rules for shadowrunners. We assume the players will Play shadowrunners, for certain, but the rules need to simulate a large variety of possible charaters, if only for the sake of NPCs. Several rules options are pretty much useless for the average shadowrunner, but they are there nonetheress. I think there need to be significant advantages to using corpses in order to justify the fact that people go out of their wayh to violate morality in order to use them. If you could use the legally and morally less reprehensive route to similar effects, no one would use corpses 9Except for the truely sick, but the use of corpses for possession is too widespread to attribute to the work of a few sick fraggers.) |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2005, 02:49 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Indeed, I'd give them comparable benefits, myself. Paying money for a fetish-version zombie I think balances nicely with the hassle of dealing with corpse zombies. After all, with the first you just need cash, and after you buy the thing you're pretty much done. The other needs preservatives and perfumes to keep the smell from annoying everyone; they need to be carefully hidden from even casual passer-by. Not to mention the creepy factor and the issue that you may end up becoming a Threat if you do it too often; it's all such a hassle, really. :)
Anyway, what I'd personally like to see is a set of bonuses for fetish-based zombie spirits, and another set of bonuses for corpse-zombies. The corpse versions of course would get you bonuses based on the level or progression of decay. Corpses for instance might get a bonus to Agility when made within a few hours of death; one in rigor mortis would maybe get an Armor bonus, but a reduced Agility. A skeleton would have a lower Body, but higher Agility and Reaction, as there's less meat to move around. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 21 2005, 06:03 PM
Post
#45
|
|||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well, you have three options: 1> Cry. 2> Make a new Ally Spirit at full Karma cost. 3> Go on an astral quest to your ally's metaplane to reconjure your ally spirit. I have never, ever seen anyone take any option except #3. Ever. I also haven't done a conversion of the metaplanar quest rules for SR4 because the old rules were "The GM makes a bunch of stuff up, the players get really weirded out, and they either succeed or they fail."
Oh, so do I. In fact, I have never seen a player character go out and kill someone in order to reanimate them as a zombie. But most players I have seen have little problem with taking the bodies of people who try to kill them and reanimating those. And Shadowrun is generally not short on that kind of person. The usual limitting factor is time, more than corpses. After all, once you have one body, there are generally lots of other potential bodies en route with guns, so often potential zombies have to be abandoned right at the source.
You know, I've always liked Skeletons. The inability of Shadowrun magicians to replicate Jason and the Argonauts just hurts a little bit. The previous editions allowed possession traditions to use only relatively fresh corpses or living bodies for their experiments. I could easily see a chart that had about four entries for materials and a similar number of entries for different kinds of corpses. I've always wanted to have someone reanimate one of the articulated sabertooth tiger skeletons from the Tar Pits, for example. That would, of course, be pretty cool. I think I'll go write one up and put it in the other thread. -Frank |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 15 2006, 08:43 AM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Rehovot, Israel Member No.: 265 |
What about Flesh Forms? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 15 2006, 11:09 AM
Post
#47
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Under these ad hoc conversion rules, every insect spirit comes out a Flesh Form. There are no rules in here for True Forms or Good Merges, but there really weren't any rules for that in the old edition either. My personal suggestion is that until Street Magic comes out, True Forms and Good Merges happen when dramatically appropriate. A straight conversion of the old Merging rules isn't really possible, because the chances of a Good Merge actually happening were tens of thousands to one. A true form consumes the body and makes a materializing spirit that sticks around like a possession spirit. A Good Merge gains the memories of the vessel and Aura Masking. Sometimes an insect merge will be one or the other, but since they're being made off camera by NPCs over a period of hours or days, it's not really important what the exact procedure for determining that is. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 13 2006, 10:29 PM
Post
#48
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 8-January 06 From: New York Member No.: 8,141 |
Very nice work Frank.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 4th September 2025 - 11:40 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.