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FrankTrollman
Full Rules for Spirits from previous editions and conversion guides. This will be expanded upon to write up Wu Jen and such. I do want constructive criticism on this.

The new Spirits:

Ancestor Spirits:
B F+3 A F-1 R Fx2 S F+1 C F I F L F W EDG F ESS F M Init Fx3 IP 2
Astral Init/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: 10/25
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling, Dodge, Perception, Ritual Spellcasting, Unarmed Combat.
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Confusion, Divination, Guard, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience, Search
Optional Powers: Animal Control, Concealment, Enhanced Senses (pick two: Hearing, Low-Light vision, Thermographic vision, or Smell), Fear, Influence, Mind Link.

Plant Spirits:
B F+3 A F-2 R Fx2 S F+4 C F I F L F W EDG F ESS F M Init Fx3 IP 2
Astral Init/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: 5/15
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Counterspelling, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat.
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Concealment, Engulf, Fear, Guard, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers: Confusion, Movement, Noxious Breath, Search, Venom

Warrior Spirits:
B F+1 A F+2 R Fx3 S F+2 C F I F L F W EDG F ESS F M Init Fx4 IP 2
Astral Init/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: 15/40
Skills: Assensing, Astral Combat, Blades, Clubs, Dodge, Exotic Ranged Weapon, Perception, Unarmed Combat.
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Fear, Guard, Materialization, Pain Resistance, Sapience
Optional Powers: Confusion, Elemental Attack, Flight, Movement, Natural Weaponry (DV = Force), Skill – a Warrior Spirit may be given an additional Combat Skill instead of an optional power, Venom

Worker Spirits:
B F A F R Fx2 S F+2 C F I F L F W EDG F ESS F M Init Fx3 IP 2
Astral Init/IP: F x 2, 3
Movement: 10/25
Skills: Artisan, Assensing, Astral Combat, Dodge, Perception, Unarmed Combat.
Powers: Accident, Astral Form, Binding, Materialization, Movement, Sapience, Search.
Optional Powers: Concealment, Flight, Influence, Enhanced Senses (pick two: Hearing, Low-Light Vision, Thermographic Vision, or Smell), Psychokinesis, Skill – a Worker Spirit may be given an additional Technical or Physical Skill instead of an optional power.

New Powers:

Divination: Type: M * Action: 12 hours – Magic * Range: Self * Duration: Instant * A critter with the Divination power has a limited ability to gain insight into current and future events concerning a single individual. The procedure is the same as for Ritual Sorcery (SR4, page 174), except that only the critter can participate in the ritual (meaning that if the target is assensable by the critter the ritual fails – no spotter can be used). At the end of the Ritual, the critter is able to give answers to questions according to the number of hits the critter gets on a Magic + Ritual Spellcasting test:
Hits – Results (For the question “What does the next month hold for me?”):
Zero (or a Glitch) Incorrect Answers or gibberish.
1+ Very Vague (Difficulty at the beginning and sorrow.)
4+ Vague (Your old enemies are rapidly approaching you once again.)
6+ General (The run will hurt you tremendously.)
8+ Specific (Your Mr. Johnson is taking bribes from Yakashima)
10+ Very Specific (Mr. Johnson is picking up his bribe this evening, a hit squad is already on its way.)

Engulf Plant Engulf enwraps the victim in brambles, vines, and thorns. The victim suffers stun damage.

Magical Guard: Type: M * Action: Free * Range: LOS * Duration: Instant * A critter with the Magical Guard power can counterspell spells as a magician can. This power does nothing if a creature does not have the Counterspelling skill. A critter with the Magical Guard power can also attempt to dispel spells.

Mind Link: Type: M * Action: Simple * Range: LOS * Duration: Sustained * A critter with the Mind Link power can open and maintain mental communication with another sapient creature. The critter can maintain a number of Mind Links equal to its Magic attribute. If multiple sapients are engaged in the Mind Link of the same critter, they may communicate freely with each other as well as the original critter.

Possession: A Possessing Spirit is merged with a physical body and is constantly Dual Natured. A spirit merged with a metahuman has Physical Attributes equal to the sum of the spirit's Force and the character's attributes (yes, really, and ignoring the augmented caps of the metatype of the possessed character). Furthermore, the combined entity has the ability of Immunity to Normal Weapons. The mental attributes of the combined entity are not added together – simply use the mental attributes of the dominant entity. The combined entity uses the Edge of the host, and the Magic Attibute of whichever is larger (host or Spirit). The combined entity can use all of the spirit's powers and skills, and all of the skills and abilities of the host. If the Spirit is disrupted, the physical body suffers incapacitating damage, or the spirit is no longer able to stay in the body for any other reason, it vanishes to the metaplanes. A possessed creature has 2 initiative passes unless it is under an effect that would give it more than two (in which case, use that number of initiative passes instead)

Possession Magic:
Some traditions conjure their spirits directly into the shells of metahumans instead of conjuring them into the Astral plane. These traditions replace the Astral Form and Materialization powers of their spirits with Dual Natured and Possession.

Services of Possession Spirits: A spirit possessed into a body does not owe individual services, but instead has a term of service. The spirit is obligated to do whatever the magician asks/demands of it for the duration of the term of service.

Summoning Possessed Spirits: A magician from a possession tradition can summon a spirit directly into a willing host (usually herself). The spirit co-occupies the body with the original inhabitant (which means that the mental attributes of the host are used). A successful summoning puts the spirit into the willing character for 1 hour per net success. The spirit's term of service lasts the entire time it is in the body. If the summoner summons the spirit directly into herself, Drain is not suffered until the spirit's term of service ends. If the spirit is placed into another willing creature, the magician resists Drain immediately, and the host also must resist Drain when the spirit's term of service ends (using the host's own mental attributes, but the magician's magic attribute to determine whether the Drain is Physical or not).

Binding Possessed Spirits: With a binding ritual, a spirit can be bound into a host body (living or dead). The body must be helpless (or dead) during the entire binding ritual, and at the end of a successful ritual the bound spirit becomes the only occupier of the body (the soul of the original occupant is destroyed at this time), making it the dominant . The number of net successes the magician scores in the binding test determines the term of service and how long the spirit can last in the body if the body was dead – 1 week per net success in both cases. A spirit bound into a previously living body can stay in the physical world indefinitely – but its term of service to the magician is still only 1 week per net success. Note that the physical attributes of a body which is already dead are half that of what it had in life (round up). Dead bodies have no skills and no Edge. Most reaction affecting implants do not function on a dead body. In most municipalities, binding a spirit into a living body is considered to be a particularly horrifying form of murder, and is not tolerated (although exceptions exist, for example in Ares Corporate Law it is not explicitly illegal, though interfering in the work schedule of Ares Citizens still is).

Magical Threats:
Some traditions are dangerously powerful and fueled by madness and despair. These traditions have a Threat Rating, which grows when they accomplish their bizarre goals and shrinks when they are thwarted. The Threat Rating is added to any of the character's Dice Pools to which a Magical Skill is being added, and to Drain Resistance rolls. So a character with a Threat Rating of 2 adds 2 dice when casting a spell against an opponent or when defending themselves from a spell being cast upon them.

Furthermore, a character with a Threat Rating adds their Threat Rating to the number of optional powers that the Spirits they summon can have. Each Threat Tradition also has a number of powers that can be placed on any spirits. The spirits that a threat tradition conjures all have a single extra disadvantage unique to their tradition. No player character can ever be a member of a Threat Tradition, please do not pester your GM about it. It really isn't going to happen. Seriously.

Example: Toxic Shamans (Poisoner)
Toxic shamans have been twisted by the horror of pollution and habitat destruction to follow a path of destruction and horror. They gain Threat Rating by committing acts of senseless environmental poisoning like the villains from Captain Planet. A Toxic Poisoner Shaman resists drain with Charisma, and can summon Air, Earth, Water, Man, and Beast Spirits. All Spirits summoned by a Toxic shaman have access to the powers of Noxious Breath, Venom, Fear, and Engulf (spirits that do not normally have engulf inflict stun damage). Spirits conjured by a Toxic Poisoner all have a Moderate Allergy to purified air or water.

Converting Voodoo:
Previous editions of Shadowrun had no less than 10 types of spirits available to Houngans. In SR4, this is still true. However, many of these spirits use the same types (choose different optional powers to represent their different aspects). A Houngan uses Charisma to resist Drain. A Houngan has access to the following spirits:

Ancestor Spirits – Detection – Damballah, Ghede, Legba
Warrior Spirits – Combat – Ogoun, Shango
Worker Spirits – Health – Work Loa
Spirits of Man – Illusion – Erzulie, Azaca, Obatala
Spirits of Water – Manipulation - Agwe

Converting Wu Jen:
A Wu Jen uses Logic to resist Drain.

Fire Spirits - Combat (Salamanders)
Air Spirits - Detection (Sylphs)
Earth Spirits - Manipulation (Gnomes)
Water Spirits - Illusion (Undines)
Plant Spirits - Health (Manitous)

Converting The Extreme Back-to-Land Tribal Shamans from the Manitou:
The hermit shamans of the far north (and deep jungle of Amazonia) use Intuition to resist Drain:

Beast Spirits - Combat
Earth Spirits - Health
Water Spirits - Detection
Air Spirits - Illusion
Plant Spirits - Manipulation

Bug Shamans:
Insect Shamans come in two main types: Hive Shamans and Solitary Shamans. Solitary Insect Shaman use Intuition to resist drain, and Hive Insect Shaman use Logic to resist drain. In either case, Insect Shaman are typically a possession tradition, and are frequently magical threats who bind spirits into living humans. Insect Shamans of either type have a very bad reputation in most of the world.

Warrior Spirits - Combat
Ancestor Spirits - Detection*
Worker Spirits - Health
Air Spirits - Illusion
Beast Spirits - Manipulation

*In previous editions, many Insect Shamans were only able to support a single "mother" spirit. There were exceptions, however (usually among the "solitary" insect spirits), and it is intended that SR4 characters use this as a roleplaying guideline. A Wasp or Ant Shaman should probably bind only a single Ancestor Spirit, and try to bind a much higher force Spirit than normal, drain or no drain. A Mantis Shaman, on the other hand, could plausibly make as many mother spirits as she feels like.

Ally Spirits:
An initiate can conjure and bind an ally spirit of any type - even one which is not normally available to her tradition. An ally spirit may be of a materializing or possession type, but a suitable body must be present for the binding ritual if a possession type is chosen. An ally spirit is a normal spirit of its type with the following exceptions:

*: Appearance: An ally spirit appears as the character initially envisions it, which may or may not be appropriate for the character's tradition. Unlike normal spirits, an ally can be mistaken for a metahuman or ordinary animal if the character so chooses. An ally may even have multiple options for how it appears (see Creating an Ally below).

*: Open Ended Service: An ally spirit's services (or term of service) are never exhausted. An ally spirit serves the character until they are freed by their master's death (or potentially near-death).

*: Aid Power: An ally spirit adds its force to any test that uses the character's Magic attribute as long as the character is within line of sight of the spirit. The spirit and the character need not be on the same plane for this ability to function.

*: Skills: An ally spirit has Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Counterspelling skills equal to the character's values in those skills. An ally spirit can have additional skills if the character spends Karma on it (see Creating an Ally below).

*: Spellcasting: An ally can cast spells as a magician can. While it does not initially have any spells, it may have spells purchased for it (see Creating an Ally below).

*: Mental Attributes: An ally spirit's mental attributes are equal to the character's, rather than the ally's force.

*: Telepathic Link: An ally spirit may communicate telepathically with the character an unlimited distance.

*: Loyalty: An ally spirit is in some sense part of the character, and is substantially more loyal than an ordinary spirit. While an ally spirit will normally go out of its way to help the character and volunteer information it believes may be of assistance, if the character is particularly cruel the ally may eventually turn on him to the best of its ability. Consider ally spirits to have a Loyalty Rating of 6.

*: Sense Link: An ally spirit has the potential to gain the power of Sense Link, which allows it to share its sense data with the character to an unlimited range. This must be purchased as an additional power (see Creating an Ally below).

Services of Ally Spirits:

An ally spirit can be called upon to perform any service that an unbound spirit may be asked to perform an unlimited number of times. In addition, an ally spirit may perform the following additional tasks:

Resist Drain: An ally spirit may be asked to take the Drain of a spell that the character is casting in her place. The ally's magic attribute is used to determine if the drain is physical or not. Alternately, the character can buy an extra success on any drain resistance roll at the cost of the ally suffering one box of physical drain (no drain resistance allowed). In either case, this is an agonizing process for the spirit, and if used frequently will encourage animosity in the ally.

Aid Study: An ally spirit may aid study exactly as if it was a normal bound spirit. An ally spirit is considered to be appropriate for every spell category for this purpose, and does not count against the limit of one bound spirit aiding in the learning of a spell.

Creating an Ally:

An Ally can be conjured by an initiate who chose "Ally Spirit" as a metamagic technique.

1. Choose form(s). The character must either provide a body (for a possession ally), or choose an appearance (for a materializing ally). A materializing ally can have additional forms that it can switch between at will at the cost of 2 Karma each.

2. Choose Force. An ally spirit's force begins at 1, and costs 5 Karma times the next rating to buy up. So having a Force 4 ally spirit would cost 45 Karma (10 Karma for Force 2, 15 Karma for Force 3, and 20 more Karma for Force 4).

3. Purchase Additional Powers. Unlike a normal spirit of its type, an ally spirit does not gain any additional powers for having a force of 3 or six. However, the character may purchase any of those powers for it (including Sense Link) at a cost of 5 Karma each.

4. Purchase Spells. An ally spirit can be given any spell that the character knows at a cost of 5 Karma each.

5. Purchase Skills. An ally spirit begins with all of the skills normal for its type at a rating equal to its force. It also begins with Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Counterspelling equal to the character's ratings in those skills. The character may purchase the ally additional skills at a rating equal to the ally's force at a cost of 5 Karma each. The character may only choose skills skills that she herself has at a rating at least equal to the ally's force, and an ally spirit may not ever have summoning or binding.

Conjuring an Ally:

Conjuring an Ally requires binding materials equal to the force of the ally. This must be done in a lodge with a rating equal or greater than the force of the ally, and takes a number of days equal to the force of the ally (bring food!)

Enhancing an Ally:

At a later time, the character may purchase additional forms, skills, powers, or spells for the ally by spending the appropriate Karma cost and spending a day in a lodge with a force equal to or greater than the force of the ally. The character may also raise the ally's force, but this requires a number of days equal to the new force and ritual materials equal to the new force (and a lodge with a rating at least the new force in its rating).

Great Form Spirits:

Inititiates with the Invoking metamagic can enhance their bound and unbound spirits to make them Great Form, which gives them a number of advantages. Watcher and Ally spirits cannot be made Great Form.

The Invoking Test: The Invoking Test is made immediately after the initial conjuration (this is a free action, and Mentor Spirit bonuses and the like do not refresh between Conjuration and Invocation). To make a spirit Great Form, make a Magic + Binding + Initiate Grade + the Spirit's Force (6) test. If the test succeeds, the spirit becomes Great Form. If hits are made in excess of the threshold, the Great Form spirit's physical attributes are all increased by the extra hits. So if the invoking test nets 8 hits, the Spirit's Strength, Agility, Body, and Reaction are all increased by 2. Regardless of whether the Invocation was successful or not, the conjurer suffers a Drain Value of 6. Any unresisted drain is applied as Physical Damage, regardless of the Invoker's Magic Attribute.

Advantages of Great Form Spirits:

* Greater Mobility: A Great Form spirit is under no compulsion to remain within 100 meters per point of their summoner's magic attribute of the summoner. Furthermore, a Great Form spirit need not vanish at dawn or dusk.

* Enhanced Attributes: As noted above, if the Invoking Test exceeds the threshold of 6 hits, the Great Form's physical attributes are increased. This bonus applies whether the spirit is materialized or not.

* Additional Powers: For every 3 hits made on the Invoking Test, the Great Form spirit gains 1 additional power, exactly as if its force was 3 higher. This means that a Great Form Spirit will always gain at least 2 additional powers. A Great Form Spirit can also choose to remove a weakness instead of gaining an additional power.

* Enhanced Powers: Any of the spirit's powers that have a range of LOS may be used with a range of LOS (A) by the spirit as desired. In addition, the spirit's Engulf power (if any) can be used with a range of LOS (A) if desired. Unlike normal area effects, the spirit may voluntarily choose to not affect any number of targets within the area if desired.

* Intransigent: Great Form Spirits are more difficult to banish than normal spirits, and roll an extra 6 dice when resisting being banished.

-Frank
Crusher Bob
What's the exotic ranged weapon for the warrior spirit?
Derek
Hmmm.

Possession traditions (such as voodoun) can only summon spirits directly into someone/something? They can summon a spirit to wander around the astral plane, and do services from the astral plane? Not materializing, but manifesting?

I'm not swure I like that; I always had the picture of the houngan being able to summon a spirit that couldn't directly affect the physical plane, but was still there in spirit form, without having to possess someone/something.

Maybe I misread what you wrote.

Derek
hobgoblin
hmm, that binding of a possesion spirit sounds like a cruel and unusual punishment if done to a living person vegm.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
What's the exotic ranged weapon for the warrior spirit?

They have Elemental Attack as an optional power. If you take that as an optional power they can use it.

QUOTE (Derek)
Possession traditions (such as voodoun) can only summon spirits directly into someone/something?


Almost. Watchers still work like they always do, so Possession Traditions can make a cloud of watchers even if no host body is around.

QUOTE (Derek)
I always had the picture of the houngan being able to summon a spirit that couldn't directly affect the physical plane, but was still there in spirit form, without having to possess someone/something.


In previous editions, some possession-based traditions could do that and others couldn't. Which means that when everything is streamlined in 4th edition and everything is given unified mechanics, it has to pick one way of doing things and stick to it. Allowing Houngans to keep their (very rarely used) option to conjure spirits without bodies that couldn't manifest would require a whole separate mechanic for dealing with the terms of service of spirits that don't have bodies. And while that wouldn't be without value, it was a nasty writing challenge and I chose to cut it. There is source material available saying that the "unattached work loa" is both possible and not-possible for different possession traditions, and it just turns out to be a lot easier to explain if we go with the "not possible" option.

QUOTE (hobgoblin)
hmm, that binding of a possesion spirit sounds like a cruel and unusual punishment if done to a living person


Absolutely. So much so that people nuked a city over it less than 20 years ago.

-Frank
Hell Hound
Bah. They didn't do it for the sake of the possessed. They did it because they realised someone else was taking over the world before them.

I'm curious, where did the idea for the Plant Spirits come from? I don't recall any tradition in previous editions of shadowrun that summoned anything like that.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Hell Hound)
I'm curious, where did the idea for the Plant Spirits come from? I don't recall any tradition in previous editions of shadowrun that summoned anything like that.

The "Plant Spirit" is a catch-all category that has the powers of the Wood Spirit of Wu Jen, and the Old Man of the Woods of some of the old NPC Tribal groups.

So the Wu Jen have:

Fire Spirits - Combat
Air Spirits - Detection
Earth Spirits - Manipulation
Water Spirits - Illusion
Plant Spirits - Health

Since the (AFAIK) previous unnamed shamanic system that summoned "spirits of wood" gave up spirits of man to do it, it's pretty clear that they get:

Beast Spirits - Combat
Earth Spirits - Health
Water Spirits - Detection
Air Spirits - Illusion
Plant Spirits - Manipulation

And of course, Plant Spirits fit rather well into various Fairy Magic, Druidic, and Wicca traditions.

-Frank
FrankTrollman
Updated the original post to answer a couple of questions:

Q: How many Initiative Passes do I get when possessed?
A: Two, unless you have an ability from another source that gives you 3 or 4.

Q: Can I make super zombies out of the corpses of cyborgs?
A: Yes and No. The Reaction Cyberware does not function on the dead bodies, and the physical attributes are halved. So the zombies might be a little less "super" than you were hoping for.

-Frank
Dashifen
These are really fantastic, Frank. You thought of talking to FanPro about doing this legit and stuff? Not sure what they've got completed for Street Magic but .............
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Dashifen)
These are really fantastic, Frank. You thought of talking to FanPro about doing this legit and stuff? Not sure what they've got completed for Street Magic but .............

That's an interesting idea. I honestly have no idea how one would go about actually submitting something to FanPro. Does anyone?

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
Writing Submission Guidelines
Dashifen
Well done RvD smile.gif
FrankTrollman
Now includes the beta version of Ally Spirits as well.

-Frank
Eyeless Blond
Nice. But... any type of spirit they want? Even one not supported by their tradition? Seems a little... odd to me. I do like making it a metamagic instead of that god-awful mechanic they have now, of either making it a cheezy Familiar ordeal or losing a point of Magic.
NightmareX
I love what you've done here Frank. smile.gif Haven't read all the ally spirit stuff yet, but I'll comment back when I have.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Nice. But... any type of spirit they want? Even one not supported by their tradition? Seems a little... odd to me.

Yep. There are a couple of reasons for that:

1. Under this system, there's nothing inherently unbalancing with getting any particular spirit type over any other. There are no longer any hidden uber spirit types like "Toxic" that are available to threat traditions. Threat traditions get bonuses to the normal spirit types that they summon, so there aren't any land mines.

2. This way we can skip a page and a half description of the inhabiting power by simply rolling allies into the materialization/possession choice.

3. The Ally isn't attached to a tradition-specific spell category, isn't attached to a tradition-specific appearance, and I really couldn't think of a reason why it had to have a tradition specific stat-line at that point.

So basically, I couldn't think of a single reason why an essentially hermetic rabbi couldn't have a worker spirit possessing a clay hommunculus as their ally spirit from a game mechanical standpoint - and that sounds totally awesome from a character standpoint. BTW, hommunculi are going to be "inhabitting foci" - which means that if you want your Houngans can animate scarecrows rather than corpses.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I do like making it a metamagic instead of that god-awful mechanic they have now, of either making it a cheezy Familiar ordeal or losing a point of Magic.


The price structure was radically altered to take account of the following facts:

1. I have seen a grand total of zero ally spirits ever created without being part of an initiation rite. It counted as an ordeal and netted you an additional magic point, there was no reason to not do it that way. Since functionally that was the only way that was ever done by people who actually understood the rules, I simply rewrote the mechanics so that it was easier to understand that that was what you were supposed to do.

2. I have seen a grand total of one ritual of change ever. Ally spirits are so expensive to enhance, and the rules so unfavorable for doing so, that it really isn't worth doing for just about anyone ever. I thought this was unfortunate, and so I removed all the special (and convoluted) rules that kick in all over the place to screw you over for doing rituals of change. It's now only slightly more expensive in terms of time and money to get an ally and later enhance it over getting a big ally straight off.

-Frank
FrankTrollman
Added Great Form Spirits. Those of you who want to go out and Invoke things, rejoice!

And yes, you'll note that the new rules reward you for conjuring powerful spirits to invoke rather than weak ones. That's deliberate. I've always been more than a little disdainful of the "force three great form spirits" that people were throwing around all the time.

-Frank
FrankTrollman
New Item: I split Hive Shaman and Solitary Insect Shaman up. An ant or bee shaman uses Logic and Willpower for their drain, a fly or beetle shaman uses Intuition and Willpower for their drain.

-Frank
NightmareX
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Full Rules for Spirits from previous editions and conversion guides. ......I want constructive criticism on this

Ok, gave it a more through look through. Got a couple of questions/comments.

1) Worker spirits have Psychokinesis. Great for work loa, but now worker bug spirits get Psychokinesis too? Maybe it should be changed to an optional power?

2) Invoking a Great form spirit has a set DV of 6? I think a variable DV might be better, based on the spirit's Force. Like Force+3 or something. Also, the drain is alway physical? Why not go for the drain only being physical if the spirit's Forcex2 is greater than the conjurer's Magic attribute (or some other caveat like that).

I know both methods I just mentioned would lead to a tendancy towards "mighty mouse" great forms (something I despise as well), but maybe a way could be found to include variable drain without having that problem? Maybe including a limit, like requiring a spirit to be at least Force 5 (for example) before it can be invoked to great form?

Other than that these minor details, I seriously love what you've done here. Hopefully you've sent it to FanPro so there's a chance it could become official?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (NightmareX)
1) Worker spirits have Psychokinesis. Great for work loa, but now worker bug spirits get Psychokinesis too? Maybe it should be changed to an optional power?


Good point. I made Binding a fixed power and Psychokinesis an optional power. That should make Work Loa and Ant Workers a bit more buildable.

QUOTE (NightmareX)
2) Invoking a Great form spirit has a set DV of 6?  I think a variable DV might be better, based on the spirit's Force.  Like Force+3 or something.  Also, the drain is alway physical?  Why not go for the drain only being physical if the spirit's Forcex2 is greater than the conjurer's Magic attribute (or some other caveat like that). 


The goal is to make Invoking possible, but at the same time make it so that it is an option that characters don't always use. I found that when there were ways to make that Drain into Stun, there were characters who could (and did) summon a greatform unbound spirit every single morning before breakfast to simply leave on standby in case they were needed. I definately don't want characters to get to the point where they summon a force 6 great form spirit each day by default. While I have seen the Bio-Dwarf build that can make a force 6 greatform unbound spirit and usually not take any drain at all, I want the drain to actually make a difference if it happens.

Note that this all assumes that you use the rule "No Magical Healing of Drain". If you don't, then all bets are off.

QUOTE (NightmareX)
Maybe including a limit, like requiring a spirit to be at least Force 5 (for example) before it can be invoked to great form?


I toyed with the idea of mandating that the spirit be overcast before it could be invoked. But ironically, this allowed a character to be a Mystic Adept with an artificially low Magic Attribute and a bunch of Foci to crank out Great Forms every day on less Karma than it took a dedicated full mage to be able to do it at all. That made me sad.

Right now, I'm just having the Spirit's Force add to the invoking test, so if you add 3 to your spirit's force, you on average pick up 4 points of physical stats and 2 special powers. That by itself encourages characters to squeeze every point of Force they can figure out how to get out of their spirit. And the fixed drain on the invoking test means that the incentive to skimp on that force is pretty small.

QUOTE (NightmareX)
Other than that these minor details, I seriously love what you've done here.  Hopefully you've sent it to FanPro so there's a chance it could become official?


Well, here's the story on that:

I submitted this stuff (well, some of this stuff, I just started writing more) back in September. At the time, Rob said that he'd look at it when he saw what the Freelancers who were already on board were throwing around, and that he'd probably be back to me in a few weeks.

Then, I signed up with the Red Cross and spent the next three weeks being inventory control in a warehouse in Gulfport, Mississippi. And while spending time there gave me a lot of ideas for how to run New Orleans and Los Angeles in Shadowrun, it did not cause me to receive any word back from Rob.

I have since received word from one of the other Freelancers that FanPro doesn't want to publish things that have already been on the web (oops), and that Rob is out of town on his own for a few weeks (d'oh!), and that Street Magic is scheduled to start collecting manuscripts "real soon".

So... the chances of any of this showing up in Street Magic are what I would call "very low". It's a possibility still, but I'm not holding my breath. If anything, I would like whoever does end up writing these sections to keep these ideas under advisement. I'd rather have a good game than have my name on the cover.

-Frank
NightmareX
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 12 2005, 11:44 AM)
Good point. I made Binding a fixed power and Psychokinesis an optional power. That should make Work Loa and Ant Workers a bit more buildable.

Cool cool.gif

QUOTE
The goal is to make Invoking possible, but at the same time make it so that it is an option that characters don't always use. I found that when there were ways to make that Drain into Stun, there were characters who could (and did) summon a greatform unbound spirit every single morning before breakfast to simply leave on standby in case they were needed. I definately don't want characters to get to the point where they summon a force 6 great form spirit each day by default. While I have seen the Bio-Dwarf build that can make a force 6 greatform unbound spirit and usually not take any drain at all, I want the drain to actually make a difference if it happens.


Good point. Yeah, keeping with physical drain is probably the best bet.

QUOTE
I have since received word from one of the other Freelancers that FanPro doesn't want to publish things that have already been on the web (oops),


Just like WotC frown.gif

QUOTE
So... the chances of any of this showing up in Street Magic are what I would call "very low". It's a possibility still, but I'm not holding my breath. If anything, I would like whoever does end up writing these sections to keep these ideas under advisement. I'd rather have a good game than have my name on the cover.


I hear ya there. But what the hell, if whatever comes out in Street Magic doesn't trip my trigger, I'll just use your stuff instead. More added to the house rules wink.gif
maa01
What about blood spirits? I always liked them.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (maa01)
What about blood spirits? I always liked them.

Blood Spirits in this version are otherwise normal spirits that are summoned by members of a Blood Magic Threat Tradition.

Every Threat Tradition gets an extra drawback that goes on its spirits, in this case the drawback is Essence Loss. Every Threat Tradition gets a list of additional powers that it can staple onto its spirits, and the ability to get a number of free powers equal to the conjuring character's Threat Rating. The bonus powers for a Blood Tradition are usually going to be Essence Drain and Fear.

So a Blood Mage might have access to spirits of Man, Earth, Ancestor, Beast, and Water, for example. Any spirit summoned is going to have Essence Loss, and the Blood Mage can always choose to add Essence Drain and Fear to any of her spirits.

Note that in this system, a blood mage doesn't actually have to sacrifice anyone to get a spirit to show up, but the sacrifice metamagic lets you bind spirits so much larger that for all practical purposes that's all they are ever going to do. Also note that a Blood Mage still has five whole different spirit types - but that all of them lose Essence over time.

-Frank
PlatonicPimp
Not that you care, if you only summon them for quick use and don't bind them.

you say All threat traditions have an extra drwback on spritis? What is it for toxic shamans? Bug shamans? You don't mention this in your writeup.

I like your stuff, though. Keep up the good work. I'd certainly appreciate your input/help on the various updates/projects I've got going.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Not that you care, if you only summon them for quick use and don't bind them.

True. The disadvantage is not guaranteed to come up.

QUOTE

you say All threat traditions have an extra drwback on spritis? What is it for toxic shamans? Bug shamans? You don't mention this in your writeup.


Oops. There. It's in now. Toxic Shaman summon spirits that are allergic to purified air and water. Insect threats summon spirits that are allergic to insecticides.

-Frank
maa01
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Note that in this system, a blood mage doesn't actually have to sacrifice anyone to get a spirit to show up, but the sacrifice metamagic lets you bind spirits so much larger that for all practical purposes that's all they are ever going to do. Also note that a Blood Mage still has five whole different spirit types - but that all of them lose Essence over time.

-Frank

Sacrifical metamagic? where? smile.gif

I would say that sacriface gives (essence/2) or (magic) automatic hits on both summoning, binding and invoking. and only one sacriface to give bonus to this all. It will probably be one ritual. Really bloody ritual.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (maa01)
Sacrifical metamagic? where? smile.gif

The Sacrifice Metamagic allows you to inflict boxes of physical damage on a sapient animal (usually a human) to reduce the drain value by an equal amount. Like how initiates can transfer damage to their allies to reduce drain.

That means that the 4th edition version is often quite pointless to use on yourself. There's still a reason to do it when using very drain intensive magic that is nonetheless causing stun damage. Remember, if the drain from binding a spirit knocks you out, the spirit goes free and eats your heart - but if you merely suffer crippling physical injury and stun damage, nothing bad happens to you.

-Frank
Jaid
also useful for trolls, who have crazy high body attribute and can stand to take a few extra boxes of physical damage over stun damage.
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
...but if you merely suffer crippling physical injury and stun damage, nothing bad happens to you.

heh, let's look at this one again.
Jaid
the point was that if you fill up all your stun boxes, you fall unconcious. if you fill up half your stun boxes and half your physical boxes, you are still able to continue fighting, or run away, or whatever else it is that you need to do. it is also especially useful for summoning/binding, since you can take the time to rest and recover from the physical part of the drain. it would allow crazy 'overcasting' if you could apply the drain partially to one damage track and partially to the other.
PlatonicPimp
Still, given the way it worked in previous editions, and because its supposed to be scary/powerful, I'd allow for 1 box physical reduces drain by 2.

Or maybe we do the thign where it varies based on the sacrifice? Perhaps 1 slaughtered animal reduces drain by 1, 1 slaughtered paranimal reduces drain by 2, 1 box physical damage to a sentient creature reduces drain by 1, and 1 box damage to an awakened sentient creature reduces drain by 2?

Yeah, I like that. That's how I think I'll run it.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 8 2005, 05:45 AM)

QUOTE (Derek)
Possession traditions (such as voodoun) can only summon spirits directly into someone/something?


Almost. Watchers still work like they always do, so Possession Traditions can make a cloud of watchers even if no host body is around.

-Frank

As an interesting possibility here, frank, might we require that possession traditions must make little host bodies for their watchers? Homunculi or possesed voodoo dolls? miniature golems?

Actually, is there any way for a possession tradition to have spirits animate golems instead of people when binding? That'd be cool.
Jaid
not sure if he said it here or elsewhere on the boards, but i think he said he was gonna convert homunculi sometime. so the real question is: can watchers possess homunculi (if they can, that would definitely make them a lot more combat effective...)
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Actually, is there any way for a possession tradition to have spirits animate golems instead of people when binding? That'd be cool.

Absolutely, we just bust out the old rules for the Inhabiting Focus. People can make golem bodies with enchanting that can subsequently be possessed by summoned and bound spirits. Like the old rules for making an ally in a homunculus body.

Now the old rules had problems - namely that only character theme would make you ever consider making the body out of anything other than metal. There are a couple of solutions to that:

*: make the benefits of an inhabiting focus completely independent of the material used.

*: make the benefits of each material a relatively minor. Ex: a clay body might give hefty fire resistance, a straw body might grant a speed upgrade, a steel body might give some extra armor or strength, etc.

I'm leaning towards the second option. But what can't happen is the old-edition stuff where you had a hardened armor stat that was entirely material dependent. That has to go away, and inhabiting foci can jolly well just not take away the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons.

QUOTE (PP)
As an interesting possibility here, frank, might we require that possession traditions must make little host bodies for their watchers? Homunculi or possesed voodoo dolls? miniature golems?


That would work. The key here is that Possession Traditions would give up their ability to use Watchers as spies, messengers, or long-range scouts, but gain the ability to use their watchers on the physical plane. Having dual watchers would make them really slow, but literally infinitely more effective on the physical plane.

I would suggest that the body they need should be the equivalent of a fetish - something that by itself doesn't cost any karma. Inhabitting Foci should probably be the same way, at least up to a certain level. I could see a two tiered system in which there were basic inhabitable bodies, and body foci that gave bonuses to any spirit that is conjured into them - like the difference between a Fetish and a Fetish Focus.

-Frank
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 19 2005, 09:35 PM)

Absolutely, we just bust out the old rules for the Inhabiting Focus. People can make golem bodies with enchanting that can subsequently be possessed by summoned and bound spirits. Like the old rules for making an ally in a homunculus body.
(snip)
But what can't happen is the old-edition stuff where you had a hardened armor stat that was entirely material dependent. That has to go away, and inhabiting foci can jolly well just not take away the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons.

The key here is that Possession Traditions would give up their ability to use Watchers as spies, messengers, or long-range scouts, but gain the ability to use their watchers on the physical plane. Having dual watchers would make them really slow, but literally infinitely more effective on the physical plane.

I would suggest that the body they need should be the equivalent of a fetish - something that by itself doesn't cost any karma. Inhabitting Foci should probably be the same way, at least up to a certain level. I could see a two tiered system in which there were basic inhabitable bodies, and body foci that gave bonuses to any spirit that is conjured into them - like the difference between a Fetish and a Fetish Focus.

-Frank

I'd say that the inhabiting item for bonding possession spirits has no stat's of it's own, so that only the spirit's stats are used. An inhabititing Focus, however, has it's rating as physical stats to stack with the possessing spirit, as normal. That would be the difference.

Meaning watchers, which can only inhabit the fetish version, not the focus, can't have physical stats above 1.

I Like it. Why don't you add this to the notes on the possession power.
Eyeless Blond
Heh, now I've got this image of little Lego-men Watchers walking around. smile.gif
NightmareX
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
I would suggest that the body they need should be the equivalent of a fetish - something that by itself doesn't cost any karma. Inhabitting Foci should probably be the same way, at least up to a certain level. I could see a two tiered system in which there were basic inhabitable bodies, and body foci that gave bonuses to any spirit that is conjured into them - like the difference between a Fetish and a Fetish Focus.

I like where you're going with this. Very nice smile.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
I Like it. Why don't you add this to the notes on the possession power?


Well... the primary reason is because that takes a step up from "converting" the old traditions, and takes them in a new (if logical, by my standards) direction. So while I think the idea has a lot of merit, it's not really part of the original thread goal to adopt the flavor and capabilities of the old magical traditions into SR4.

The secondary reason is because spirits other than watchers need some sort of incentive to enter a prepared golem. Remember that the inhabiting fetish comes with some very real advantages for a watcher to go with the severe restrictions on movement. While a watcher in a body is no longer able to use astral fast movement or fly through walls or become invisible, it can now carry 10kg of stuff for you, and that's no joke. However a spirit can already lift and carry. Normally what they are looking at in terms of advantages from being locked in a body is potentially longer terms of service and some bonus physical attributes. Remember, a hobo corpse is free, and comes with +2 to every physical stat. For an inhabiting fetish to be competitive for a spirit, it needs to come with some bonuses to offset the fact that it is so much more expensive and time consuming than finding a dead body when you are a shadowrunner.

So the Inhabitting Fetishes need to come in two grades: Watcher Grade (which are little dolls or toy rhinos or whatever), and Spirit Grade (which are full metahuman sized golems). The cost difference can be substantial, and the Spirit Grade ones should come with some basic stats that are possibly related to the material they are made with. In addition, there are the Inhabitting Foci, which are Spirit Grade Inhabitting Fetishes that also have a Force that simply adds to physical stats and rolls to resist banishment.

I like where this is going, but it probably belongs in the other thread because Houngans weren't able to do this in any previous edition (although I would argue that they should have been able to).

-Frank
PlatonicPimp
The incentive to use a fetish over a hobo corpse, aside from the smell, is that making animated scarecrows isn't illegal, while creating Zombies is.
Doc Byte
I'm working on norse magic with the help of scientific sources. It's still 'under construction' for it's difficult to get the spirits right. So I don't want to translate the explanations into English until the final version. Right now I can just give you the bare facts. ( We're still discussing them, too. )

Combat - Fire Giants ( Fire )
Detection - Storm Giants ( Air )
Health - Water Giants ( Water )
Illusion - Mountain Giants ( Earth )
Manipulation - Elben / Elves ( Man )

Drain: Willpower + Charisma


Edit: Maybe one should permute water and earth.
FrankTrollman
Personally, if I was going to make a Norse Magic tradition which summoned giants and fey rather than invoking animal spirits to possess themselves, I'd set it up like this:

Combat - Valkyr ( Warrior )
Detection - Muspel Giants ( Fire )
Health - Niefel Giants ( Water )
Illusion - Van ( Man )
Manipulation - Svartalf ( Earth )

And then use Charisma and Willpower to resist Drain. Of course, that's just me.

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
The incentive to use a fetish over a hobo corpse, aside from the smell, is that making animated scarecrows isn't illegal, while creating Zombies is.


Oh heck yes. Although you can obviate the smell problems by simply shrink wrapping your zombies. For the average person, the fact that you don't have to deal with murder or body snatching to get your hands on spirits with hands is such a big advantage that a golem body could come with substantial penalties compared to a previously living body and remain competitive. But we don't write these rules for normal people - we write them for Shadowrunners.

And Shadowrunners get the bodies of Yakuza enforcers for free. Often delivered to their homes. So they need to have the golem bodies incentivized, if only slightly. I'm thinking that a basic spirit body should have physical stats of about 2, modified up and down by materials.

-Frank
maa01
What happen if someone kills your ally spirit?
PlatonicPimp
Actually, frank, most of my players find the idea of using fresh hobo corpses (I drek you not) Distasteful. It's like they actually care about the sanctitiy of human life or something. Sometimes I have to give out Substantial in game benifits in order for them ot be evil.

It's like I'm living in the twilight zone.

I'd like to strongly disagree that we write these rules for shadowrunners. We assume the players will Play shadowrunners, for certain, but the rules need to simulate a large variety of possible charaters, if only for the sake of NPCs. Several rules options are pretty much useless for the average shadowrunner, but they are there nonetheress. I think there need to be significant advantages to using corpses in order to justify the fact that people go out of their wayh to violate morality in order to use them. If you could use the legally and morally less reprehensive route to similar effects, no one would use corpses 9Except for the truely sick, but the use of corpses for possession is too widespread to attribute to the work of a few sick fraggers.)
Eyeless Blond
Indeed, I'd give them comparable benefits, myself. Paying money for a fetish-version zombie I think balances nicely with the hassle of dealing with corpse zombies. After all, with the first you just need cash, and after you buy the thing you're pretty much done. The other needs preservatives and perfumes to keep the smell from annoying everyone; they need to be carefully hidden from even casual passer-by. Not to mention the creepy factor and the issue that you may end up becoming a Threat if you do it too often; it's all such a hassle, really. smile.gif

Anyway, what I'd personally like to see is a set of bonuses for fetish-based zombie spirits, and another set of bonuses for corpse-zombies. The corpse versions of course would get you bonuses based on the level or progression of decay. Corpses for instance might get a bonus to Agility when made within a few hours of death; one in rigor mortis would maybe get an Armor bonus, but a reduced Agility. A skeleton would have a lower Body, but higher Agility and Reaction, as there's less meat to move around.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (maa01)
What happen if someone kills your ally spirit?

Well, you have three options:

1> Cry.
2> Make a new Ally Spirit at full Karma cost.
3> Go on an astral quest to your ally's metaplane to reconjure your ally spirit.

I have never, ever seen anyone take any option except #3. Ever. I also haven't done a conversion of the metaplanar quest rules for SR4 because the old rules were "The GM makes a bunch of stuff up, the players get really weirded out, and they either succeed or they fail."

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Actually, frank, most of my players find the idea of using fresh hobo corpses (I drek you not) Distasteful.


Oh, so do I. In fact, I have never seen a player character go out and kill someone in order to reanimate them as a zombie. But most players I have seen have little problem with taking the bodies of people who try to kill them and reanimating those. And Shadowrun is generally not short on that kind of person. The usual limitting factor is time, more than corpses. After all, once you have one body, there are generally lots of other potential bodies en route with guns, so often potential zombies have to be abandoned right at the source.

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Anyway, what I'd personally like to see is a set of bonuses for fetish-based zombie spirits, and another set of bonuses for corpse-zombies. The corpse versions of course would get you bonuses based on the level or progression of decay. Corpses for instance might get a bonus to Agility when made within a few hours of death; one in rigor mortis would maybe get an Armor bonus, but a reduced Agility. A skeleton would have a lower Body, but higher Agility and Reaction, as there's less meat to move around.


You know, I've always liked Skeletons. The inability of Shadowrun magicians to replicate Jason and the Argonauts just hurts a little bit. The previous editions allowed possession traditions to use only relatively fresh corpses or living bodies for their experiments.

I could easily see a chart that had about four entries for materials and a similar number of entries for different kinds of corpses. I've always wanted to have someone reanimate one of the articulated sabertooth tiger skeletons from the Tar Pits, for example. That would, of course, be pretty cool. I think I'll go write one up and put it in the other thread.

-Frank
Omer Joel
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Bug Shamans:
Insect Shamans come in two main types: Hive Shamans and Solitary Shamans. Solitary Insect Shaman use Intuition to resist drain, and Hive Insect Shaman use Logic to resist drain. In either case, Insect Shaman are typically a possession tradition, and are frequently magical threats who bind spirits into living humans. Insect Shamans of either type have a very bad reputation in most of the world.

Warrior Spirits - Combat
Ancestor Spirits - Detection*
Worker Spirits - Health
Air Spirits - Illusion
Beast Spirits - Manipulation

*In previous editions, many Insect Shamans were only able to support a single "mother" spirit. There were exceptions, however (usually among the "solitary" insect spirits), and it is intended that SR4 characters use this as a roleplaying guideline. A Wasp or Ant Shaman should probably bind only a single Ancestor Spirit, and try to bind a much higher force Spirit than normal, drain or no drain. A Mantis Shaman, on the other hand, could plausibly make as many mother spirits as she feels like.

What about Flesh Forms?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Omer Joel)
What about Flesh Forms?

Under these ad hoc conversion rules, every insect spirit comes out a Flesh Form. There are no rules in here for True Forms or Good Merges, but there really weren't any rules for that in the old edition either.

My personal suggestion is that until Street Magic comes out, True Forms and Good Merges happen when dramatically appropriate. A straight conversion of the old Merging rules isn't really possible, because the chances of a Good Merge actually happening were tens of thousands to one.

A true form consumes the body and makes a materializing spirit that sticks around like a possession spirit. A Good Merge gains the memories of the vessel and Aura Masking. Sometimes an insect merge will be one or the other, but since they're being made off camera by NPCs over a period of hours or days, it's not really important what the exact procedure for determining that is.

-Frank
Pallantides
Very nice work Frank.
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